Deadly turn to final

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radioguy01

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radioguy01
Hi all,

I understand what happens in the deadly turn to final, with too slow + too much rudder + nose up attitude. But why is this happening? I read in the "learn to turn" thread (let's not go there), that one reason people make this mistake is that they are acares to bank more than 20' during approach speeds. If that's one of the "causes", is it because they turn so slow that they overshoot, then try to correct too much? My instructor is fine with 20' turns, bc he said with a passenger it's comfortable for them, but when I want my pattern work to be right I feel fine banking to 30'.

Just curious.
 
The cause of those base-to-final stall/spin accidents is a combination of not enough speed, too much pull, and too much rudder. If you're comfortable with 30 bank in that turn, and you keep your speed where it should be to keep an adequate margin above stall at the g-load for that bank (about 1.15g, which increases stall speed by about 7%) and you keep the turn coordinated, it's not a safety issue.
 
I think it's a bad idea to limit bank.

The dynamics goes something like this:

You have a crosswind from the pattern side.
You see the extended centerline coming up FAST on base.
You've been told no turns in the pattern over 20 deg bank, or something similar.
You stomp the inside rudder to increase turn.
The aircraft tries to roll further due to the excess rudder.
You give it top aileron to keep the bank under 20 deg, cause big bank angles are bad. Now, you're cross-controlled.
The nose drops, also due to the excess rudder.
You yank the yoke to put the nose back.

The antidote? If you see you're overshooting base to final, let it overshoot. Correct the lineup on final or go around.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think it's a bad idea to limit bank.
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I agree. I do not like imposing arbitrary bank limits on student - I would rather see a little "too much" bank in the pattern than a skidded turn.

But skidding is insidious. I have about 6,700 hours in all sorts of small planes and a lot of instructing hours. Yet watching a YouTube video of me flying a pattern in my Sky Arrow, I noticed this:

7425385928_e03e845087_o.jpg


That was a left turn in the pattern, and I do not remember any skidding on that flight - but there you have it.

Admittedly I did have plenty of airspeed "cushion" and the Sky Arrow is very rudder sensitive, but if it can happen so easily and insidiously to me, well...

Let me find a Stick and Rudder graphic which I'll post next.
 
Fast Eddie I'd put a piece of yarn on the canopy, sailplane/helicopter style more heads up then the ball.
 
FastEddieB said:
I do not like imposing arbitrary bank limits on student
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So what should I tell my student who tries to do 45 degree banks almost every single time for no good reason?
 
dmspilot said:
So what should I tell my student who tries to do 45 degree banks almost every single time for no good reason?
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That flying like that after he gets his license will not get him any repeat passengers. Otherwise no problem.
 
dmspilot said:
So what should I tell my student who tries to do 45 degree banks almost every single time for no good reason?
Click to expand...

I would admonish that student that they need to plan ahead enough or widen out the pattern slightly so that banks of more than about 30° are never necessary.

But my admonishment would be far stronger if the student was skidding around the pattern, regardless of bank angle.
 
I am a student pilot and last time I flew, we were going from base to final, I was too nose high at 20 degrees of flaps, airspeed started to decay because I was too nose high and my instructor noticed the decay in airspeed before I did, he pitched the nose down immediately. I learned my lesson from that...I will never do that again! airspeed, airspeed, airspeed on base to final. we could have easily been in a stall at 500 ft AGL on final and it would not have been pretty. Good thread here you started, opened my eyes up!
 
This came up on another forum that I post on today and I will pose the same question I posed there (sorry for repeat post to those on both forums).

I am so back and forth on this stall spin issue. As a student, it scared the daylights out of me.
But then I hear people talk about how hard it is to spin an airplane..

My current thinking is I have never had my stall horn go of unintentionally (Except for Major Thermal/gusts)

When I do a power off stall for practice, the stall horn goes off for awhile. Look at the video below of me practicing power off stalls. The stall horn is going off for at least 12 seconds before the stall starts. In the video, my wings are level so it is a different story but obviously it happens and enough that instructors need to drill coordination into the students but if I hear my stall horn, I am not going to wait 12 seconds to correct. I guess I question is in these stall spin accidents that end badly, is the onset much quicker w/o warning due to bank angle?

We did climbing banked stalls and still had a good amount of heads up before it broke.

Please don't read this post as me being cocky or "it cant happen to me" type thing. I am now and plan to remain as humble as possible with regard to my respect for aviation. I am just trying to understand how different a real stall spin is from stall practice as a student. How much less time would you have to correct?

 
...fly a good pattern and you don't really need much, if any, rudder. I think where this becomes a problem is when someone overshoots and then wants to tighten that turn up to get back on the glideslope. Go around. It's that simple. If you fly a good pattern there's no need or reason to have to jam rudder pedals to stay coordinated.

As someone mentioned, you fly to the limits in the pattern...it may be 'safe' but you won't get too many people to fly twice with you. Most passengers I fly with are already a little skittish in the pattern and several have mentioned to me that the power coming off scares them. Why make it worse flying like a Red Bull racer?

I'm a low hour PPL but when I bought into my airplane one of the other Partners who happens to be a retired 30 year big airline captain showed me the ropes in the plane. We fly a Cherokee 235 which is like flying a bus...but it's pretty docile. We're up at about 3500 feet and he tells me, "For the most part, you have to really not be paying attention for this plane to bite you...but watch your airpseed in the pattern and don't do this or it'll kill you...". He proceeds to do what Fast Eddie posted. Scared the bejesus out of me. We didn't spin but we did stall and on a base to final to turn the altitude we lost recovering would have proved deadly. I learned my lesson.
 
ClimbnSink said:
That flying like that after he gets his license will not get him any repeat passengers. Otherwise no problem.
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My instructor said something like that (not because of turns specifically, it was about some other maneuver where I wasn't gentle enough):
"You have to clean up the plane before returning it"
 
kenjr said:
He proceeds to do what Fast Eddie posted. Scared the bejesus out of me. We didn't spin but we did stall and on a base to final to turn the altitude we lost recovering would have proved deadly. I learned my lesson.
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My first "initiation" was on a solo flight. I think I had just done some approach-to-landing stalls, and it was time to do a departure stall. I accidentally left some flaps in, but for whatever reason when the "break" came it was sudden and accompanied by a hard left roll. "Scared the bejesus out of me" as well. I recovered but was quite rattled.

Based on that experience, I liked my students to see "incipient spins" before soloing. It would involve slowing down to right near the stall, then stick back and enough rudder to get just a bit of "rotation". I simply did not want their first exposure to be by themselves.
 
I don't believe it has anything to do with bank limits or having to subsequently make a tighter turn on final. I believe it has to do with being distracted from the dynamics of your flight path and control coordination by being focused on flying a specific pattern across the ground. It's the same principle as the "moose stall" where you are so concentrated on a ground reference that you lose touch with your air reference.

And this doesn't just happen to students and new pilots.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This came up on another forum that I post on today and I will pose the same question I posed there (sorry for repeat post to those on both forums).

I am so back and forth on this stall spin issue. As a student, it scared the daylights out of me.
But then I hear people talk about how hard it is to spin an airplane..

My current thinking is I have never had my stall horn go of unintentionally (Except for Major Thermal/gusts)

When I do a power off stall for practice, the stall horn goes off for awhile. Look at the video below of me practicing power off stalls. The stall horn is going off for at least 12 seconds before the stall starts. In the video, my wings are level so it is a different story but obviously it happens and enough that instructors need to drill coordination into the students but if I hear my stall horn, I am not going to wait 12 seconds to correct. I guess I question is in these stall spin accidents that end badly, is the onset much quicker w/o warning due to bank angle?

We did climbing banked stalls and still had a good amount of heads up before it broke.

Please don't read this post as me being cocky or "it cant happen to me" type thing. I am now and plan to remain as humble as possible with regard to my respect for aviation. I am just trying to understand how different a real stall spin is from stall practice as a student. How much less time would you have to correct?
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Proficient Flying: The Very Best Of Barry Schiff/3 Dvd Set

You might want to pick up this excellent series! He actually demonstrates all of these in the air.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
When I do a power off stall for practice, the stall horn goes off for awhile.
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That's probably the best warning you'll ever get for stall.

For a power-on stall, you can get any amount of warning you want, depending on how hard you yank the yoke. If you want to stall "today," it's going to be fairly short.

For an accelerated stall, because of how those enter, you may get very little warning from the stall horn. Remember, stalling does not require low speed.

I've also encountered aircraft with pneumatic stall horns (e.g., 172s) where the reed pops off and it doesn't work at all. I check them every preflight. Do you? Even that's not a guarantee it's still working at a later time.

More insidiously, do you truly hear the stall horn when you touch down? Lots of us tune it out.
 
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Silvaire said:
I believe it has to do with being distracted from the dynamics of your flight path and control coordination by being focused on flying a specific pattern across the ground.
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Yes.

Another time I got caught was spiraling down in my Cirrus over N Perry airport in S FL. I was spiraling in order to stay clear of cumulus clouds that were doing there best to become "towering". As I was looking down at the airport and spiraling, finally my butt and/or me ears sensed something not quite right.

What wasn't quite right was that the ball was nailed to the right of the tube as I was apparently standing on the left rudder pedal to tighten the turn and stay clear of the clouds.

I consider myself an average "stick". Whatever skills I have have not come because I have exceptional aptitudes but just because I've accumulated a lot of hours in the air. Enough that I can notice that I'm subject to all the same foibles that have gotten other pilots in trouble or worse.

It's when you start to think "I'm different" is when warning signals should go off, IMHO.
 
Ron Levy said:
The cause of those base-to-final stall/spin accidents is a combination of not enough speed, too much pull, and too much rudder. If you're comfortable with 30 bank in that turn, and you keep your speed where it should be to keep an adequate margin above stall at the g-load for that bank (about 1.15g, which increases stall speed by about 7%) and you keep the turn coordinated, it's not a safety issue.
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When I started to learn "circle to land" approaches in IFR training, it surprised me how small of a radius you could turn the plane. My CFI said to keep the nose down and watch the airspeed when turning tight. I'm sure that's an oversimplification but seems to be in line with what you're saying.
 
MAKG1 said:
More insidiously, do you truly hear the stall horn when you touch down? Lots of us tune it out.
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I usually do.

But one time I was watching a video of a very good full-stall landing in my Cirrus. It was only then I noticed the absence of the horn.

Next time out I found sand particles (or something) had nearly totally blocked the stall warning horn port:

12972500404_1be09583a7.jpg


Have no idea how long it had been like that. I obviously was somewhat negligent on preflight, but there you have it.
 
Radioguy,

Have you ever done an accelerated stall or discussed this with your instructor. The concept is the same. Does not matter if you are in a 20 degree bank or a 60 degree bank, the plane will stall at the same combination of G load and airspeed.

Its good to practice some accelerated stalls at low airspeed. See exactly how much pull you have (g load) before the airplane stalls. I don't care if you make 60 degree banks in the pattern, as long as you are sensitive to how much 'pull' on the elevator (g-force) you have before the airplane stalls, and stay a safe margin above that, you'll be safe.
 
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MAKG1 said:
More insidiously, do you truly hear the stall horn when you touch down? Lots of us tune it out.
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I like the stall horns in Cessnas. If you do a short field landing right, you should hear the horn begin to squeak as you add a little G load in the round out.
 
dmspilot said:
So what should I tell my student who tries to do 45 degree banks almost every single time for no good reason?
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Just throw up on him/her when s/he does it.

Seriously, let your student know that 45 degree bank turns to final indicate to the examiner a lack of proper pattern planning and inability to properly perform rectangular patterns, and those can result in failure on the practical test. Then say something every time it happens, and debrief it on the ground. Your student almost certainly prefers not to be ragged over such things, and will change his/her behavior accordingly. Hence, a change in behavior as a result of experience, i.e., "learning".
 
I was trained by a naval aviator. We were in a Citabria. Here's where things went pear-shaped:

"Now, I want a nice tight pattern, the runway sight should be just above the bottom of the window edge when level."
"Too much bank! Only 45 deg in the turn!"
"You're going to overshoot the centerline."
"Too slow here, you need to keep your speed up better."
"Go around."

After this and I just got out of ground school where we discussed the base to final spin issue. I had a little sit down with my CFI and said something's got to give on the landing pattern stuff here.

IMNSHO the effort to keep the pattern tight in a small GA plane with no stall indicator is leading to deadly damage. Now, I make a nice wide pattern and it prolly upsets other guys but too effing bad. Get over yourself, cause I'm not getting into that regime again.
 
docmirror said:
IMNSHO the effort to keep the pattern tight in a small GA plane with no stall indicator is leading to deadly damage. Now, I make a nice wide pattern and it prolly upsets other guys but too effing bad. Get over yourself, cause I'm not getting into that regime again.
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I fly the majority of my hours these days in small GA planes with no stall indicator. I also fly tight patterns!

There does not need to be any particular focus on tight patterns, but like most single engine aviators i'm always slightly wary of an engine failure and I like to be within gliding distance of a field when I am in the pattern.

That said, at night I tend to fly all IFR and shoot a full approach even if the weather is VFR. Safety first. The possibility of me screwing up a VFR night approach is higher than the possibility of an engine failure.
 
docmirror said:
I was trained by a naval aviator. We were in a Citabria. Here's where things went pear-shaped:

"Now, I want a nice tight pattern, the runway sight should be just above the bottom of the window edge when level."
"Too much bank! Only 45 deg in the turn!"
"You're going to overshoot the centerline."
"Too slow here, you need to keep your speed up better."
"Go around."

After this and I just got out of ground school where we discussed the base to final spin issue. I had a little sit down with my CFI and said something's got to give on the landing pattern stuff here.

IMNSHO the effort to keep the pattern tight in a small GA plane with no stall indicator is leading to deadly damage. Now, I make a nice wide pattern and it prolly upsets other guys but too effing bad. Get over yourself, cause I'm not getting into that regime again.
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I was also trained by a former military instructor. He said the same things. I eventually did it correctly. He was trying to save me from an engine failure in the pattern. No airliner approaches, and be able to make the runway from anyplace in the pattern should the engine quit. No airplanes in those days, champs, cubs t crafts had stall warning indicators, or AOA indicators. neither did the Stearman I owned. The stall warning, in time, is located where you sit down. Stall training should still be mandatory. It leaves an impression that stays with one.
 
The deadly turn depends on how high you are and what your flying. You should be familiar enough with the aircraft to know immed. If you can make it. Otherwise, it's knife in the teeth and either go straight ahead or a few degrees to either side.
 
dell30rb said:
I fly the majority of my hours these days in small GA planes with no stall indicator. I also fly tight patterns!
.
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You are a far superior pilot, and should instruct all of us on how to fly.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I was also trained by a former military instructor. He said the same things. I eventually did it correctly. He was trying to save me from an engine failure in the pattern. No airliner approaches, and be able to make the runway from anyplace in the pattern should the engine quit. No airplanes in those days, champs, cubs t crafts had stall warning indicators, or AOA indicators. neither did the Stearman I owned. The stall warning, in time, is located where you sit down. Stall training should still be mandatory. It leaves an impression that stays with one.
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I was not trained by a former military instructor.

The FAA has long ago abandoned the 'within gliding distance' theme from the pattern. Quite possibly since it led to more than a few stall/spin turns in the pattern.
 
docmirror said:
You are a far superior pilot, and should instruct all of us on how to fly.
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That's unfair.

It's all about comfort level, combined with abilities.

Tight patterns with moderate or greater bank have been flown for many, many decades, in all sorts of planes with and without stall warning systems.

But if you're not comfortable doing them, by all means don't!

And pilots have stalled and spun from wide patterns and little bank, so there's no guaranties there either.

Just remember what Dirty Harry opined...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0
 
FastEddieB said:
That's unfair.

It's all about comfort level, combined with abilities.

Tight patterns with moderate or greater bank have been flown for many, many decades, in all sorts of planes with and without stall warning systems.

But if you're not comfortable doing them, by all means don't!

And pilots have stalled and spun from wide patterns and little bank, so there's no guaranties there either.

Just remember what Dirty Harry opined...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0
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Well, I think this is a circular argument. I can do pretty much anything with a plane that most other can do, some of it worse, most of it better. I've been vicariously described as a good stick and rudder guy. But that's not what he was crowing about. You see, he can do a tight pattern, and he can do it safely in a GA plane, so why can't I? It's not at all about comfort.

If you want a tight pattern, and 45deg bank, and 1.3Vso, the margin for error is lower. This has nothing to do with comfort it's just physics. Which brings us back to the reason for this thread. People still die from pattern stall/spin. There are simple, and effective ways to minimize them, that also have nothing to do with comfort. Make a wider pattern, reduce bank angle, maintain speed and your margin for error just went up a lot. Of course, as someone has noted, then you may not be in gliding distance of a runway. If one is concerned about that, maybe stay in the pattern for ever.
 
Pilots were killing themselves the same way 50 years ago when I started and I am sure that wont change. That and continuing VFR in IFR big pilot killer.
 
I'm not an accomplished pilot. However I learned from those who were and listened carefully. My last bi annual was in a 150 hp Citabria. I was slow in the pattern on one landing and he jumped on me. He was correct, I was wrong. We went around and I kept the speed up. He suddenly chopped the throttle on downwind , in a close in pattern. I dove for the runway and easily made the runway. I have always been very aware of stalls and know they are deadly close to the ground. I only have around 4000 total hours in over 50 years of flying but always practiced stalls at altitude, an occasional spin and keep it humming down low. Now, flying light sport as a necessity, it's different with two people compared to one in these little champs and Taylorcrafts. They tend to float much more than the Stearman or the bonanza. It's all about time and experience. I've had two engine failures. One in a mooney at teterboro the other in a stearman , low over farmland. The instruction saved me both times.
 
docmirror said:
If you want a tight pattern, and 45deg bank, and 1.3Vso, the margin for error is lower.
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This has been beat to death recently, and discussed in the other thread about turning the airplane with the elevator.

Your statement is only true for a level turn.
 
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docmirror said:
There are simple, and effective ways to minimize them, that also have nothing to do with comfort. Make a wider pattern, reduce bank angle, maintain speed and your margin for error just went up a lot.
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Agree with most of your post, except for the bolded part.

I think there's more danger in too little bank than too much.

A skid is defined as too little bank for the rate of turn, or, inversely, too much rate of turn for the angle of bank.

And skids are far more deadly than slips, if and when a stall occurs.

Students (and licensed pilots) who are "bank shy" are far more likely to skid than those who aren't.

I do NOT want to see 45º bank in the pattern. Watching my videos, mine tend to hover around 30º to 35º for the most part, even with a tight pattern.

And I do like to keep the field within gliding distance whenever possible, whether the FAA is emphasizing that now or not. No one else has to do that if they do not find it important.

But anyway, good discussion!
 
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MAKG1 said:
I check them every preflight. Do you? Even that's not a guarantee it's still working at a later time.

More insidiously, do you truly hear the stall horn when you touch down? Lots of us tune it out.
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I check it as part of pre flight.

I usually don't tune it out on landing. My wife has picked up on my ability to cut the first chirp short when I land. It has become a bit of a game to see how brief I can make that chirp.

But there are for sure times when I landed and realized I forgot and asked her if it went off.
 
dell30rb said:
This has been beat to death recently, and discussed in the other thread about turning the airplane with the elevator.

Your statement is only true for a level turn.
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I haven't beating anything in any other thread on this.

So, I guess your statement is, that all other things being equal, given speed, and I will grant you your descending at equal rate, that a 45deg bank and a 30deg bank provide the same margin over stall?

Sorry - not buying. But don't let that stop you. Keep instructing us, cause we shorely be needin' it.
 
I think the former military instructors stressed these things as they saw a lot of students either die or be injured after solo. They were pumping thousands through training during WW 2 . Younger instructors today have far less experience, many times very low hours themselves. While the faa may not dictate keeping the field in sight, in a light aircraft it's probably an excellent idea in the long run. I flew several years ago with a low time pilot in his 172. He was on a 2 mile final happy as a clam , quite low. Real dumb.
 
docmirror said:
So, I guess your statement is, that all other things being equal, given speed, and I will grant you your descending at equal rate, that a 45deg bank and a 30deg bank provide the same margin over stall?
Click to expand...


My point is that for a given airspeed, the amount of G forces are what determine your angle of attack margin over stall. Not bank angle. Bank angle and G force are not directly related.


As an example, in a level turn at 60 degrees bank angle you are pulling 2 G's. At say.. 70 knots your angle of attack is very close to stall. Not much margin.

Now allow that 60 degree banked turn to descend a bit (don't pull back so hard on the stick). Say you are only at 1.5 G's in this turn, airspeed still 70 knots. But now your angle of attack is lower and there is much more margin over stall.
 
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