Dead serious question

[jaybee]

So I pick up my stepson from the Boys and Girls club most of the time when I'm home. He goes there after school most days.

So..... we're driving home and he asks me "What do you call them?"

I query "What do you mean by them?"

He replies "Black people."

"ummm....ummm...ummmm... it depends..." I nervously stammer.

"What's wrong with calling them black?" he asks persistently.

"That's... okay... with some of them....(now I'm saying them)however, some of them might not like that" I nervously interject.

So the conversation goes on for a few minutes, with the basic gist of it going with me saying I would avoid calling them anything other than a person or dude, if I could help it - because you don't know what the person whom you are speaking about prefers unless you ask them and to some asking them what they prefer is insulting.

So seriously, I gave what I thought was a well reasoned albeit very PC answer... it was a good question in my opinion and one that I really didn't have a good answer for.

Thoughts ?

 

[fgcason]

People are people.
Filter on behavior, not superficial stuff that is not relevant.

Green with orange and blue stripes is no different than anyone else whether white, black neon pink or whatever.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I call them Kevin, or Jake, or Gloria, or whatever their name is.

 

[Henning]

"Excuse me" typically works to address anyone.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I hate PC. Most of my black friends refer to themselves as black and prefer to be referred to as such when relevant. Many of them also find the term "African American" to be amusing, since the average black person in the United States has a longer family history in America than the average white person of European decent. Sort of like referring to white people as "German Americans, Scottish Americans, Irish Americans" or the like.

 

[Henning]

I just never see the need to interject any modifier. People are either stupid or not, that's all that counts.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I just never see the need to interject any modifier. People are either stupid or not, that's all that counts.

Never, at all?

"Meet Charles at the airport. He's dressed in a polo shirt, slacks and brown dress shoes. He's about six feet tall, short hair."

 

[jaybee]

Never, at all?

"Meet Charles at the airport. He's dressed in a polo shirt, slacks and brown dress shoes. He's about six feet tall, short hair."

There it is, that is what he was getting at with his questions.

When you need to describe someone.

Agreed on all the above about people are people and all that stuff and yes my black friends have no problem with the term black but I've met some people who do.

 

[Henning]

Never, at all?

"Meet Charles at the airport. He's dressed in a polo shirt, slacks and brown dress shoes. He's about six feet tall, short hair."

'He has the most luscious coco brown skin...', They'll stay away or wanna be friends...

 

[RJM62]

I usually use "black," and pretty much only when I need to describe someone.

I was raised in what they would call a very "diverse" neighborhood nowadays. I recall being very confused when I started hearing the word "prejudice" used with regard to race because none of the kids I grew up with paid any more attention to each others' colors than did kittens in a litter.

I asked my friend Jimmy about it, but he just shrugged and said prejudice was something that "people down south had, mostly," and that he really didn't understand it much, either.

My curiosity unsatisfied, I asked my dad about it, but his explanation was more of an admonition not to "judge people by the color of their skin" than an actual explanation of why anyone would do so in the first place.

So I figured I should ask a black dad about it, and Jimmy's dad was about as black as black gets. So early one Saturday morning, I walked down the street to Jimmy's house and rang the bell. Jimmy's dad answered and told me Jimmy was still getting dressed, and invited me in to wait for him.

"Thank you," I said as I walked into the apartment, "and can I ask you a question please, sir?"

Mr. Brewington was a huge, strong man with a gruff demeanor, and was "blacker than the ace of spades" in the parlance of the day. But he softened up, and I'm pretty sure his eyes got teary, when I asked him to explain "prejudice" to me.

He had me wait in the living room while he went and got Jimmy, and then he spent the rest of the morning talking to both of us about the history of race relations in America. In retrospect, he was very fair, very sensitive, and as thorough as could be expected considering that Jimmy and I were only about seven or eight years old.

He started with the beginnings of the slave trade and worked his way through history, mentioned that his grandfather was the first of his ancestors to be born free, talked about his own childhood growing up in the South, and eventually worked his way to Dr. King's then-recent assassination.

Mr. Brewington then walked across the room, reverently pulled a record out of its sleeve, and set it on the turntable. It was a recording of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Jimmy had obviously heard it before, and had memorized portions of the speech. I'd heard bits and pieces of it, as well, but I never really understood its context before.

At the end of the speech, Mr. Brewington summarized the speech for us, and then closed the lesson by telling Jimmy and I that if Dr. King were still alive, he would be very happy and very proud that the two of us were such good friends, because we were Dr. King's dream come to life.

-Rich

 

[Geico266]

I call them Kevin, or Jake, or Gloria, or whatever their name is.

Works for me.

 

[Henning]

Works for me.

How are you at 'Lashataniqua'?

 

[RJM62]

How are you at 'Lashataniqua'?

Gesundheit.

 

[GCA319]

By their name?

 

[Skip Miller]

How are you at 'Lashataniqua'?

-Skip

 

[jaybee]

By their name?

See post #8....

I think he caught me off guard with the question more than anything.

For anyone who missed it the first two times... sigh... the importance of using their names and that fact that we are all people was made emphatically.

I think he did raise a good issue though for people like Samuel and I who both come from small towns that had very little diversity... i don't know... its like learning a new airframe - you know how to fly already but haven't learned all the little tricks of this airframe yet....

 

[redtail]

It is a moving target, depending on how riled up the community organizers are at any given time.... When things are going along smoothly all sides seem to co-exist with little friction... But just let a racial "issue" surface and all bets are off... Like what is playing out in the media this week. Al Sharpton has a LONG history of fanning the flames of racial discrimination. Twana Brawly (sp) ? or the NC rugby players and countless other trivial incidents that were twisted to meet their idea of screaming out loud to get public attention.. For instance... A white comic says the N word during a comedy routine and they want his hide.. Richard Pryor says the N word 143 times in one of his comedy skits and they all laugh their a$$es off. Then things die down a bit and another white person lets out the N word and the vocal minority scream bloddy murder again.... Follow that by Jessie Jackson getting overheard on an open mic saying "that N needs to shut up".. Their response is ' we are black and allowed to call each other the N word,, but you whites cannot.... Like it or not racial discrimination is actually thriving in this day and age despite the gains that have been made in the last 40 years or so....

Example.

There is Black Entertainment TV, but not White entertainment TV.

There is the American Negro Collage Fund, but no White Collage Fund.

There is the Black Caucus in Wash DC, but no White Caucus.

There is the Miss Black America beauty contest, but no Miss White Beauty Contest....

I could go on and on but if any group wants true respect they need to see and live the big picture and not keep grandstanding the small hiccups that come with an emerging bi racial sociaty.. I am NOT a raciest person, but I do see the inequity on both sides and cannot use blinders to shield one bad thing to make a case for the other side.. I have alot of black friends and I prefer to call them "fellow Americans". Because that is exactly what they are...

We are all stuck on this planet, there is no getting off and for that reason we all need to work together to live in peace..

Rant off......

Ben

You make some very good points especially when it comes to the N word. It's just plain wrong no matter who uses it! It was never intended to be used for anything other than to degrade and de-humanize an entire race of people that were looked upon as inferior to whites. As a matter of fact, that's what the whole Tuskegee experiment was all about, to prove that Blacks were incapable of operating complex machinery and fighting valiently. As far as the Black TV, Soul Train, College fund, Caucus, Beauty pageant, Organization of Black Airline pilots, etc...how and why did these things come into existance?

With all due respect, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than 40 years of gains to correct 400 years of descrimation. What you perceive as small hiccups would probably feel like huge burps if you were on the other side of the racial devide.

Let's all strive to make Dr.King's dream a reality.
As far as what to call blacks....most of my friends and family say "black people" including the light skin ones. A few say "African-American" and I believe most of us are comfortable with either term because neither one of them are derogatory. Same with the terms "white people" and "Caucasian"

 

[Henning]

With all due respect, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than 40 years of gains to correct 400 years of discrimation. What you perceive as small hiccups would probably feel like huge burps if you were on the other side of the racial divide.

Well, that's half the problem, trying to 'fix' 400 years of discrimination, you can't fix the past. You just have to move on and learn from the outcomes of our action. THAT is the problem, we refuse to learn because it may initiate a change, and change is scary. The past is rooted in human nature. One tribe in Africa sold their prisoners to slave traders; not all of them went to the Americas either, plenty of slave trade within Africa, in fact, the last African nation just made slavery illegal a couple of years ago, and in fact, black on black slavery is still happening in Africa today.

You see, it's not really racism, race is just a justification/rationalization/excuse for doing something we know is evil. We don't just go after other races, we go after our own as well, regardless what race we are. We're just an evil bunch of violent, hateful, & selfish whiners as a species.

 

[denverpilot]

Romney almost let that word slip in a recent speech.

I for one, now think less of him. (And didn't think very highly of him in the first place.) It has no place in the vocabulary of a President.

On the flip side, the current President shouldn't be evoking race either to incite voters, and does it regularly. It's ingrained into his head, sadly partially by "religious" leaders he's known.

(Anyone else find it ironic that religious leaders are often the people inciting the most disgusting racist thoughts?)

We need to be far above this.

As far as what I call folk goes, "black" is descriptive if I can't think of any other way to describe someone, as in pointing out a friend to someone else so he can find him/her in a crowd.

Most often, I'd rather just call them "my friend".

As far as me, I joke that I'm a pink guy.

We all bleed red.

 

[Geico266]

You make some very good points especially when it comes to the N word. It's just plain wrong no matter who uses it! It was never intended to be used for anything other than to degrade and de-humanize an entire race of people that were looked upon as inferior to whites. As a matter of fact, that's what the whole Tuskegee experiment was all about, to prove that Blacks were incapable of operating complex machinery and fighting valiently. As far as the Black TV, Soul Train, College fund, Caucus, Beauty pageant, Organization of Black Airline pilots, etc...how and why did these things come into existance?

With all due respect, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than 40 years of gains to correct 400 years of descrimation. What you perceive as small hiccups would probably feel like huge burps if you were on the other side of the racial devide.

Let's all strive to make Dr.King's dream a reality.
As far as what to call blacks....most of my friends and family say "black people" including the light skin ones. A few say "African-American" and I believe most of us are comfortable with either term because neither one of them are derogatory. Same with the terms "white people" and "Caucasian"

I certainly cannot disagree with your assessment of he "N" word, but in defense of younger black people who use the term it simply does not mean what it use to mean. In today's world the word now means something else, thankfully. Clearly, some continue to use it as a derogitory term, but most now use it ( it seems) as a term of endearment.

Times change, the meaning of words change. I remember when "gay" meant happy, when "aids" was a diet candy.

It is just word that will continue to evolve as we evolve. Should the word be banned as some have suggested? Unfortunately, not in a free society.

BTW Red Tail you need to do more CC! 3 states? I cover more than that when I get lost, and you live where the small states are small!

 

[redtail]

Well, that's half the problem, trying to 'fix' 400 years of discrimination, you can't fix the past. The past is rooted in human nature. One tribe in Africa sold their prisoners to slave traders; not all of them went to the Americas either, plenty of slave trade within Africa, in fact, the last African nation just made slavery illegal a couple of years ago, and in fact, black on black slavery is still happening in Africa today.

You see, it's not really racism, race is just a justification/rationalization/excuse for doing something we know is evil. We don't just go after other races, we go after our own as well, regardless what race we are. We're just an evil bunch of violent, hateful, & selfish whiners as a species.

Yeah that's true, you can't fix the past. I guess what I should have said is...."It's going to take a hell of a lot more than 40 years of gains to level the playing field after 400 years of descrimination"

 

[Geico266]

Yeah that's true, you can't fix the past. I guess what I should have said is...."It's going to take a hell of a lot more than 40 years of gains to level the playing field after 400 years of descrimination"

Level the playing field against who?

My people got here after the civil war. How am I, or anyone in my family responsible for an uneven playing field? Because I am white? Isn't that discrimination based on race?

You cannot change the past, and you cannot lump everyone of the same color into a category.

We are who we are, and we should like you said take Dr. King's words to heart. It's a man's character that is the true measure. It is what's in his heart that is important.

 

[redtail]

BTW Red Tail you need to do more CC! 3 states? I cover more than that when I get lost, and you live where the small states are small!

Yeah man, unfortunately I have a very hectic life schedule between rotating crazy work hours (including 2 to 3 weekends per month), wife (works similar schedule) and a 7yr old son, I just can't get out that much so most of my flights have to be pretty local. That's also what's holding me back from starting my instrument flight lessons.

Oh, by the way, it's 4 states.....I flew out to Block Island, RI a few months ago

 

[rottydaddy]

As far as what to call blacks....most of my friends and family say "black people" including the light skin ones. A few say "African-American" and I believe most of us are comfortable with either term because neither one of them are derogatory. Same with the terms "white people" and "Caucasian"

"Black" is my default...but I wouldn't ordinarily mention race when describing someone to someone else, unless they're the only (fill in race) in the room or whatever. Narrows it down.

I can see why many Americans of color would not be real comfy with "African-American"... I don't go around describing myself as "Irish-Polish-Russian-American", and my forebears would probably prefer that I think of myself as American first and foremost.

"Caucasian" I am not too cool with... as far as I know, none of "my people" are from that area. To me, it's sort of like "Negro"... often intended to be respectful, but it makes you sound like a scientific curiosity or something.

As for the double standard resulting from racial pride: I know there's a difference between "black power" and "white power", but there's also no difference, fundamentally. All real change in American race relations has always come from simply accepting the realities of difference and similarity, rather than always looking at "the others" through a filter of prejudice and fear, even when offering concessions with good intentions.

 

[redtail]

Level the playing field against who?

My people got here after the civil war. How am I, or anyone in my family responsible for an uneven playing field? Because I am white? Isn't that discrimination based on race?

You cannot change the past, and you cannot lump everyone of the same color into a category.

We are who we are, and we should like you said take Dr. King's words to heart. It's a man's character that is the true measure. It is what's in his heart that is important.

never said you were responsible, but if you think "we've arrived" in this country, when it comes to justice, equality and racial discrimination.....you are sadly mistaken!

 

[Everskyward]

My people got here after the civil war. How am I, or anyone in my family responsible for an uneven playing field? Because I am white? Isn't that discrimination based on race?

You are not personally responsible but if you are going to bask in the reflected glory of being part of a group, this country for example, you also need to recognize that things that were done in the past by the group were not always wonderful. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Henning]

Yeah that's true, you can't fix the past. I guess what I should have said is...."It's going to take a hell of a lot more than 40 years of gains to level the playing field after 400 years of descrimination"

LOL, that's racist thinking right there! Goes against Dr King's Dream! As soon as you speak of 'leveling the playing field' you automatically bring race into the issue again. That's the whole thing, it's a Pandora's box issue, once you open it, you can't put it away, all you can do is ignore it completely, not one mention ever again.

This is why it will always be an issue until cross breeding mixmasters the physical features and we all speak the same language. I look forward to seeing that about the second of never, mankind will destroy itself long before then.

 

[redtail]

LOL, that's racist thinking right there! Goes against Dr King's Dream! As soon as you speak of 'leveling the playing field' you automatically bring race into the issue again. That's the whole thing, it's a Pandora's box issue, once you open it, you can't put it away, all you can do is ignore it completely, not one mention ever again.

This is why it will always be an issue until cross breeding mixmasters the physical features and we all speak the same language. I look forward to seeing that about the second of never, mankind will destroy itself long before then.

wait a minute, because I would like to be on a level playing field with my white fellow Americans....that's racist thinking? wow!

 

[Henning]

never said you were responsible, but if you think "we've arrived" in this country, when it comes to justice, equality and racial discrimination.....you are sadly mistaken!

Well hang on now, now you are being a segregationist racist with comments like that. Blacks have been freely immigrating to this country for quite some time now. The neighborhood I'm in right now is about half black, call it a few hundred, none of them are from US slave origin, they're all immigrants from nations where everyone is black and they get treated much worse there than here.

 

[Henning]

wait a minute, because I would like to be on a level playing field with my white fellow Americans....that's racist thinking? wow!

Exactly!!! Racism in our culture is so incipient and pervasive, most people don't even realize the roots of it. You made a perfect example of it and it was what Dr King was talking about in the 'I had a Dream' speech.

Without even realizing it likely you said above, "with my white fellow Americans" rather than "with my fellow Americans" or my fellow engineers or accountants or whatever.

Every time a statement such as that is made, regardless of whom it's made by, it reinforces racism.

 

[redtail]

don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that great progress has been made over the years, all I'm saying is.....We have a long way to go when it comes to race relations and equality! No white person alive today is responsible for what happened and I do not harbour any ill feelings toward anyone.

 

[Henning]

don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that great progress has been made over the years, all I'm saying is.....We have a long way to go when it comes to race relations and equality! No white person alive today is responsible for what happened and I do not harbour any ill feelings toward anyone.

Don't get me wrong either, I don't support racism or defend the past or even the present. Just saying "don't hold your breath waiting for it to go away" because it's not. You will never play on a level playing field, neither will I, you know why? The earth is a globe! Race is not the only card of discrimination in the US either. Very few of us ever get to play on the high end of the field regardless our race.

 

[redtail]

Exactly!!! Racism in our culture is so incipient and pervasive, most people don't even realize the roots of it. You made a perfect example of it and it was what Dr King was talking about in the 'I had a Dream' speech.

the first sentence is definately true.....hence my original point:wink2:

the second sentence, i beg to defer with. wanting equal rights, oportunity,etc is not racist thinking. Wanting to be judged by who I am and not the color of my skin is what Dr. King was getting at. Unfortunately, that is not a reality yet. I've seen it in every aspect of society for the 46 years I've been breathing.

 

[RJM62]

"Black" is my default...but I wouldn't ordinarily mention race when describing someone to someone else, unless they're the only (fill in race) in the room or whatever. Narrows it down.

. . . .

That's pretty much where I'm at with it. I don't feel any differently about describing someone as a "tall black man" or an "asian woman with a perm" than I do about describing someone as "a redheaded guy with a beard" or "a tall blonde woman." You're describing someone's appearance. Leaving their race out of the description makes for kind of a deficient description.

But I've sometimes been told that even that in itself is racist because I wouldn't say, for example, "a redheaded white guy with a beard." But until I meet a red-headed black guy, for example, I feel pretty safe in assuming that "white" is implicit in "red-headed." I haven't met too many black guys named "Rusty."

I think it comes down to what is implied by a word rather than the word itself, which in many cases may be interpreted quite differently by the hearer than was intended by the speaker.

As I mentioned, the neighborhood I grew up in was incredibly diverse. It was down by the freight docks in Brooklyn, and a lot of people there were agents of foreign companies involved in various aspects of international shipping and trade. It was like the United Nations.

Young children don't attach any particular significance to race until they're taught to do so, but that doesn't mean we didn't notice the external differences. So let's say there were two kids in the neighborhood named Charlie, one black and the other white. If I asked a friend named Bobby if he'd seen Charlie, he almost certainly would ask, "Which Charlie? The black one or the white one?"

To us, being as-of-then still-innocent kids, there was no further implication to "black" or "white" other than to distinguish between two individuals with the same name. It would be no different from asking, "The tall one or the short one?" "The fat one or the skinny one?" or "The redhead or the blond?" It was a description of an obvious physical characteristic, not a value judgment.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

the first sentence is definately true.....hence my original point:wink2:

the second sentence, i beg to defer with. wanting equal rights, opportunity,etc is not racist thinking. Wanting to be judged by who I am and not the color of my skin is what Dr. King was getting at. Unfortunately, that is not a reality yet. I've seen it in every aspect of society for the 46 years I've been breathing.

In and of itself it's not, but as soon as you make a racial distinction across the field you now drag racism into the subject. Racism will not go away until the distinction does. Any excuse for someone to discriminate is enough. When you eliminate racial distinctions, there will be another. Most of the discrimination you face is actually not racially based, race just becomes a handy excuse that we use so we don't have to admit that as a species we're pretty screwed up. By discriminating we get to lie to ourselves that we are not screwed up, "they are".

 

[Dart]

Well, that's half the problem, trying to 'fix' 400 years of discrimination, you can't fix the past. You just have to move on and learn from the outcomes of our action. THAT is the problem, we refuse to learn because it may initiate a change, and change is scary. ....

You see, it's not really racism, race is just a justification/rationalization/excuse for doing something we know is evil. We don't just go after other races, we go after our own as well, regardless what race we are. We're just an evil bunch of violent, hateful, & selfish whiners as a species.

God, I hate having to agree with the above. But, that is the gist of it all.

 

[redtail]

In and of itself it's not, but as soon as you make a racial distinction across the field you now drag racism into the subject. Racism will not go away until the distinction does. Any excuse for someone to discriminate is enough. When you eliminate racial distinctions, there will be another. Most of the discrimination you face is actually not racially based, race just becomes a handy excuse that we use so we don't have to admit that as a species we're pretty screwed up. By discriminating we get to lie to ourselves that we are not screwed up, "they are".

agreed...wow, something we agree on.

While we're on the subject of race, again. When I was 11yrs old, my parents bought a house in a section of Newark,NJ that was about 75% white, 25% black. Before then, we lived in an all black neighborhood on the other side of town. Anyway, our house happened to be between two white families. The folks to our right were racist and treated us like crap! Started fights with us, called me the N word (1st time experiencing that), sicked the dog on me , jumpped me, etc.

The family to the left of us were just the opposite, they were very kind, neighborly and downright genuinely good people. They had the utmost respect for my parents, helped us with whatever we needed.

They were general contractors who had their own business and they gave my brother and I various jobs so that we could earn a few bucks and learn a skill at the same time.

So as much as I hated the negative experiences from the *******s to the right of us, I had to except the fact that not all white people were like that. Little did I realize it at the time but I was learning a valuable lesson in life. Respect and treat people like you would like to be treated and never look at a person's color and automatically assume good or bad.

 

[Dart]

..But I've sometimes been told that even that in itself is racist because I wouldn't say, for example, "a redheaded white guy with a beard."

My growing up experience is not far different from yours. My closest black friends do not use the "n" word, Richard Pryor be damned. They are mostly rather conservative and just as appalled by ridiculous black stereotypes (pants on the ground, double-deuces on old Impalas) as white folks. "The black guy, dude, woman, etc." serves just fine for describing someone's appearance.

But until I meet a red-headed black guy, for example, I feel pretty safe in assuming that "white" is implicit in "red-headed." I haven't met too many black guys named "Rusty."

Genetic expression is a fascinating thing. It is easy to forget we all have pretty much the same ones, just some are more expressed than others. I once saw a blond black man. Not an albino, a BLOND black man. He had every characteristic you would associate with a negroid; the woolly hair, flattened nose, thick lips, dark skin. The skin was definitely dark-brown but, the hair was reddish-blond and the eyes were greyish blue. I didn't ask if his name was "Trevor"

 

[Geico266]

never said you were responsible, but if you think "we've arrived" in this country, when it comes to justice, equality and racial discrimination.....you are sadly mistaken!

Just like we see age discrimination, sexual preference, economic discrimination, ect.

Bigotry is ugly no matter what form it takes and against anyone.

 

[Geico266]

You are not personally responsible but if you are going to bask in the reflected glory of being part of a group, this country for example, you also need to recognize that things that were done in the past by the group were not always wonderful. Can't have it both ways.

Agreed, but I never claimed to be a part of any group.