Day vs Night Landings

bstratt

bstratt

Cleared for Takeoff
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A question came up in our partnership meeting last night. One of the partners had asked a local CFI if the 3 night landings/takeoffs also satisfied the 3 landings/takeoffs for taking up a passenger during the day. The CFI reportedly said no - you also have to complete the three day takeoffs/landings as well.

FAR 61.57(a) requires a person acting as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers to have performed three takeoffs and landings as sole manipulator of controls in the same category and class of aircraft within the past ninety days. It does not say the takeoffs and landings must be during the day.

FAR 61.57(b) requires a person acting as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers to have performed three takeoffs and landings to a full stop as sole manipulator of the controls in the same category and class of aircraft at night during the past ninety days.

I don’t see anything in the regs that requires day landings to carry passengers during the day.
 
bstratt said:
A question came up in our partnership meeting last night. One of the partners had asked a local CFI if the 3 night landings/takeoffs also satisfied the 3 landings/takeoffs for taking up a passenger during the day. The CFI reportedly said no - you also have to complete the three day takeoffs/landings as well.

FAR 61.57(a) requires a person acting as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers to have performed three takeoffs and landings as sole manipulator of controls in the same category and class of aircraft within the past ninety days. It does not say the takeoffs and landings must be during the day.

FAR 61.57(b) requires a person acting as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers to have performed three takeoffs and landings to a full stop as sole manipulator of the controls in the same category and class of aircraft at night during the past ninety days.

I don’t see anything in the regs that requires day landings to carry passengers during the day.
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The CFI is wrong. Three take off and landings at night will also allow you take up pax in the day.
 
Barry, the CFI is wrong. You have it right.

Unless, of course, both you and I are missing something.:smile:
 
Agreed -- 3 takeoffs and landings at night cover both day and night requirements.

The reasoning may be that night ops are more difficult, thus you "prove" you can fly day if you can handle night.

Still, this is a bit academic, as I sure don't feel competent after 89 day break.

:nonod:
 
Does that same CFI think that if you do 3 TO/Landings in a tail-wheel that you can't have passengers in a tricycle gear plane?

Question for the CFIs out there...is there something in CFI training that prohibits you from uttering the phrase "You know, I'm not sure about that, let me look into that for you..."
 
dmccormack said:
Are you basing your currency only on tailwheel TO/Landings?
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So, if you did 3 T&Gs in a tail-wheel yesterday, can you carry passengers in a tricycle gear plane today? Yes...you can't in the TW, but you can in the trike.

Now, if you do 3 night S&Gs in that TW, you're good to go for everything.
 
JeffDG said:
So, if you did 3 T&Gs in a tail-wheel yesterday, can you carry passengers in a tricycle gear plane today? Yes...you can't in the TW, but you can in the TW.

Now, if you do 3 night S&Gs in that TW, you're good to go for everything.
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You're pretty good if you're doing Touch and Gos in a TW. I doubt currency is a problem.
 
If your currently is established by night landings only, do you have to close your eyes on the daytime landings? :)
 
CFI should have his/her cert revoked for not being able to read English.
 
Thanks guys, that's what I thought.

I wasn't the one who asked the CFI, it was one of my partners so I never had the opportunity to question him.
 
JeffDG said:
So, if you did 3 T&Gs in a tail-wheel yesterday, can you carry passengers in a tricycle gear plane today? Yes...you can't in the TW, but you can in the trike.
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Stuff like that cracks me up...

Can you do all three on one pass down the runway? And to I have to let the tailwheel touch?

Or, as my brother would say as we pulled off the runway "How many of those are you going to log?"
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Stuff like that cracks me up...

Can you do all three on one pass down the runway? And to I have to let the tailwheel touch?

Or, as my brother would say as we pulled off the runway "How many of those are you going to log?"
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How many landings can angels log on the head of a pin?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Stuff like that cracks me up...

Can you do all three on one pass down the runway? And to I have to let the tailwheel touch?

Or, as my brother would say as we pulled off the runway "How many of those are you going to log?"
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Tailwheel aircraft require full stop.

61.57 "...if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel."
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There is NO altitude requirement, so I can be current once down a 5000' runway.
 
dmccormack said:
There is NO altitude requirement, so I can be current once down a 5000' runway.
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Isn't it the 10 night landings you need for your PP that say "with each involving flight in the traffic pattern" for reasons like that?
 
JeffDG said:
Question for the CFIs out there...is there something in CFI training that prohibits you from uttering the phrase "You know, I'm not sure about that, let me look into that for you..."
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It's not regulatory but a lot of us get much of our training on the Internet in forums like these.

Also once you get a CFI you no longer make mistakes. We prefer to refer to what pilots call mistakes as "demonstrating problems common among student pilots."

Joe
 
JeffDG said:
Does that same CFI think that if you do 3 TO/Landings in a tail-wheel that you can't have passengers in a tricycle gear plane?

Question for the CFIs out there...is there something in CFI training that prohibits you from uttering the phrase "You know, I'm not sure about that, let me look into that for you..."
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My thought exactly. OTOH some folks seem to have the need to prove the old Lincoln saying:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

or, as they sometimes also say

There are no stupid questions.
Now, answers on the other hand...
 
JeffDG said:
?

Question for the CFIs out there...is there something in CFI training that prohibits you from uttering the phrase "You know, I'm not sure about that, let me look into that for you..."
Click to expand...

I'm not a CFI. I did by some chance take, and pass the IGI, and AGI tests, which cover all the book material a CFI does... but thats just trivia...

But the answer is.. CFI training is largely a vocational, see one, do one, teach one endeavor. You can cover the book smarts end of it by skimming the Gleim, the FAR AIM and taking a computerized test. Same thing with FOI.. Then its a matter of what your examiner feels about you when you get in the cockpit come checkride time (once you practice teaching from the other seat, yadda yadda)..

Sure you can go to a college and get a degree in the process, but your CFI card is the same color and composition and conveys the same privileges that the guy who never finished high school, and learned how to fly in crop dusters 50 years ago has.

You read some magazines... you hear about "the FAA did XYZ to Bob 20 years ago" 4th hand while hangar flying. You blindly repeat what people supposedly in positions of authority tell you, and then thats how misconceptions and OWT's end up getting passed around as gospel.

Then you have the (unfortunately) rare individuals who challenge everything, ask to see chapter and verse in the rule book, distinguish between "policy", "practice" and "the law", aren't afraid to be wrong, learn from their mistakes, and strive to be a professional in a vocational occupation. These are the ones who dont accept OWT's... and know how to use the references provided them.

rant off.
 
dmccormack said:
If you're doing TnG in a TW for currency, you're either very good or very dumb.

:rolleyes:
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Why?
At a field with good lighting there is little difference between a TW airplane and a nose dragger for 75% of the pattern. The difference is during the lineup/touchdown phase and that, to me at least, is easier due to the lack of surrounding images, no horizion, no scenery...it's just me and the lights...like a video game! And I don't have a landing light yet (it's on my to-do list). A Million Candlepower $12.99 Wally World handheld light makes a good taxi light for now.

I DO make my "wobbles" a bit bigger to search for the ground but I'm always (so far) just about where I think I should be...

Besides; night flying has a couple of gimmies...it's nice and calm and most sane people are at home doing whatever. The airport is mine!!!

Also; the light of the city is beautiful at night!

JMPO

Chris
 
Hiperbiper said:
Why?
At a field with good lighting there is little difference between a TW airplane and a nose dragger for 75% of the pattern. The difference is during the lineup/touchdown phase and that, to me at least, is easier due to the lack of surrounding images, no horizion, no scenery...it's just me and the lights...like a video game! And I don't have a landing light yet (it's on my to-do list). A Million Candlepower $12.99 Wally World handheld light makes a good taxi light for now.

I DO make my "wobbles" a bit bigger to search for the ground but I'm always (so far) just about where I think I should be...

Besides; night flying has a couple of gimmies...it's nice and calm and most sane people are at home doing whatever. The airport is mine!!!

Also; the light of the city is beautiful at night!

JMPO

Chris
Click to expand...

I enjoy night flying as well. My point was that Touch and Goes (TnG) in a tailwheel aren't so smart unless you're very competent in TW.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Stuff like that cracks me up...

Can you do all three on one pass down the runway? And to I have to let the tailwheel touch?

Or, as my brother would say as we pulled off the runway "How many of those are you going to log?"
Click to expand...

I have wondered if the real reason that the regs call for full stop landings in TW aircraft was to eliminate pilots logging multiple landings when they bounced a TW.
 
dmccormack said:
I enjoy night flying as well. My point was that Touch and Goes (TnG) in a tailwheel aren't so smart unless you're very competent in TW.
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I'd have to say that depends on the TW. In my Porterfield, I don't even need to re-trim to take off so all that's needed to convert from landing is to open the throttle and close the carb heat. I do TW T&Gs often when I want to sharpen my landing skills and have never found them particularly difficult. Now in something a bit more complicated like a Beech 18 I doubt I'd feel the same way.
 
gismo said:
I have wondered if the real reason that the regs call for full stop landings in TW aircraft was to eliminate pilots logging multiple landings when they bounced a TW.
Click to expand...

One could fly down the runway setting the mains down and picking them up and calling them "wheel landings"... Even if you made a trip around the pattern, a main gear "touch" isn't much of a landing. So, yea, that makes sense - the hard part is the rollout, not the touchdown.
 
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