Day Flight Fright

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
On the red board recently there was a thread titled Night Flight Fright. It was interesting, I thought. Well, it seems I have some demons too.

Some weeks ago I posted about an inflight engine failure I had that ended with a very uneventful and satisfactory outcome. In the end I replaced all components of the ignition system, but never really found the smoking gun. After this work, I've made some shorter local flights and flown some practice approaches without a problem. Checked the engine monitor data for these flights and everything looked fine.

On Monday mornig I launched into IMC conditions for a 5 hour flight to Arlington, TX with my son with me. Frankly I was nervous, very nervous. It was like I was EXPECTING the engine to stop. No, I WAS expecting the engine to quit. After about an hour things were clear below and I was constantly picking out the field I would land in. We were at only 4,000' because of winds; therefore there was very little gliding distance and I knew it.

I seemed to relax a little after about 3 hours and actually was joking a bit when we finally got to the Dallas terminal area (normal DODJE3 arrival). I stuck my oxipulse meter on after we landed. Pulse 95!!!

It will not be good for any ongoing participation in aviation if this feeling continues. It was not fun, and flying should be fun. I know there are a number of members of this board that have had, let's call them, bad experiences, but obviously are still very active pilots today. I've gotta figure my reaction is human and normal. But I hope it's also nornal for the negative feelings to go away. We'll see.

(Maybe 50 kt tailwinds on the way back will help :D )
 
Lance F said:
On the red board recently there was a thread titled Night Flight Fright. It was interesting, I thought. Well, it seems I have some demons too.

Some weeks ago I posted about an inflight engine failure I had that ended with a very uneventful and satisfactory outcome. In the end I replaced all components of the ignition system, but never really found the smoking gun. After this work, I've made some shorter local flights and flown some practice approaches without a problem. Checked the engine monitor data for these flights and everything looked fine.

On Monday mornig I launched into IMC conditions for a 5 hour flight to Arlington, TX with my son with me. Frankly I was nervous, very nervous. It was like I was EXPECTING the engine to stop. No, I WAS expecting the engine to quit. After about an hour things were clear below and I was constantly picking out the field I would land in. We were at only 4,000' because of winds; therefore there was very little gliding distance and I knew it.

I seemed to relax a little after about 3 hours and actually was joking a bit when we finally got to the Dallas terminal area (normal DODJE3 arrival). I stuck my oxipulse meter on after we landed. Pulse 95!!!

It will not be good for any ongoing participation in aviation if this feeling continues. It was not fun, and flying should be fun. I know there are a number of members of this board that have had, let's call them, bad experiences, but obviously are still very active pilots today. I've gotta figure my reaction is human and normal. But I hope it's also nornal for the negative feelings to go away. We'll see.

(Maybe 50 kt tailwinds on the way back will help :D )
Click to expand...

You needa more reliable plane so you can relax a little !
 
Lance,

I know I am a student working on my PPL, but do you think it will help you if you flew with an instructor? Through out my training, and people here on the board have told me that when I get my PPL out of the way if I do not feel comforable flying to go with an instructor, and maybe that would help.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Brook
 
Lance F said:
I seemed to relax a little after about 3 hours and actually was joking a bit when we finally got to the Dallas terminal area (normal DODJE3 arrival). I stuck my oxipulse meter on after we landed. Pulse 95!!!

It will not be good for any ongoing participation in aviation if this feeling continues. It was not fun, and flying should be fun. I know there are a number of members of this board that have had, let's call them, bad experiences, but obviously are still very active pilots today. I've gotta figure my reaction is human and normal. But I hope it's also nornal for the negative feelings to go away. We'll see.

(Maybe 50 kt tailwinds on the way back will help :D )
Click to expand...

What you experienced is very normal and it's also quite normal for it to fade with exposure. Personally, I'd probably avoid any low IMC until I either found the root cause of your original problem or had at least 20 hours of hiccup free operation. You might also try Bruce Chien's idea of scouting out potential emergency landing sites in the areas you frequent and putting them into a GPS.
 
Lance, I've folllowed your saga with great interest and was pleased that you managed that emergency so well.

My suggestion would be that for a short time you change your flying style a bit. Before doing those long IFR cross-countries again, why not go up and just fly around on a beautiful sunny day a few times? Do some short $100 hamburger flights with sufficient altitude for your comfort. If it isn't nice out, wait for another day.

It may take quite a few flights before you feel comfortable with the engine again, but I suspect the day will come.

I don't remember how far you are from TBO, but if the distrust persists, you always have the option of doing your major overhaul early. Yes it's very expensive, but a "new" engine might be worth it for peace of mind.

Jon
 
Gosh, Lance, it's to be expected, don't you think? I was impressed with your handling of the incident, and the aplomb you showed afterward on the boards (always wanted to use the word "aplomb" - thanks!). You likely have a bit of post-traumatic stress from the thing!! (I mean, who in the world wouldn't???). Give it time to ease up a bit - I'm sure it will, and if it doesn't, there's ways to deal with it and people that know how to help you deal with it. You can't help but be human, you know!

It'll get better - really! I haven't dealt with it in airplanes, but in whitewater kayaking, motorcycling, etc, I've found a number of opportunities to experience it! :hairraise:
 
Not sure what to tell you, Lance.

I'm still shaky flying at night and will find any excuse whatsoever not to do it.

I agree with Lance Fisher though--I'd stay out of IMC for the next few hours, and for dang sure if I had my children or wife or friends or whoever with me.

Just give it time. You had an engine out emergency and you handled it exactly by the book and all was well. Keep flying, but keep expecting the engine to go on you. I've had three of those things (deadsticks) and now I'm at the point to where no matter what I'm flying, I just expect something to go wrong. When it doesn't (as is the case 99% of the time), then I figure I had a great flight.

During the day, just keep your eye out for good potential off-site landing spots--and check your charts often while XC to see where you're at regarding nearest airports. Your GPS should have "nearest airport" features in it, but it never hurts to also know where you're at on the chart.

-JD
 
Like with a few other flying situations, I find that there is always that balance between confidence and a little nervousness/fear. We all put a lot of trust into our machines everytime we go up.

I'm sure you'll be back to normal once you have some more data points. :) I know there is always a reset once you hear that strange, unusual vibration noise you've never heard before.... :)
 
All good comments, thank you. This board is good therapy. Cheap too:D

Should get another 4 hours or so tomorrow flying back to Atlanta area. VMC would be nice, as would a 50 kt tail wind.
 
I agree with all of the comments. I also know that some chose to fly multies for peace of mind. I've thought a lot about that, too, but I also realize that with a multi, one has twice the chance for an engine failure. Also, it takes more time and effort to be proficient in multies, otherwise they are more dangerous in an engine out than in a single.

Maybe being a proficient multi pilot is the answer, maybe being proficient in engine-out and flying very conservatively is the answer; I don't really know. I am sure that if I ever got into a twin, I'd justify it up and down, swearing how happy I am I made the move, finances be damned. Then again, that's what multies do to your finances!

On a related note, I see that the Seneca V is supposed to be able to be run at 24 GPH total in cruise. I'd think that you'd have quite a rough-running engine and high temps!
 
Lance:

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'd be pretty edgy also if my plane had quit like yours did; and, I probably stay edgy until I found the base problem. You may have fixed it with the repairs you made, but can't be 100% sure.

Flying the single above mountains, IFR, water, at night is something I've accepted for ME. I feel differently about conditions under which I would carry family.

I moved to the twin both for the additional comfort in poor conditions and the extra capability. Have to differ a little with Ben about the twin being more dangerous. There is only one very critical time in a twin: after rotation, before Blue Line on a short to medium runway. Other times, an engine failure can be reasonably dealt with if one is reasonably cool headed and proficient. Good judgement still must be used: it's more capable and one can launch into some pretty challenging conditions. Still, the extra climb rate, higher cruise speed, pressurization and K-ice is something I wanted and absolutely love having!! I know several folks that have lost an engine on a twin and landed in an very safe, reasoable manner. Things have to go real bad on a well maintained plane at exactly the wrong time in poor conditions for the twin to be more dangerous in my mind. It does happen, but more often we read about folks that didn't deal with the issue in a proficient manner.

Keep flying Lance. I'd do all of the above until I was highly confident the underlying issue has been addressed.

Quality of life in an issue with me. I'm not going to quit doing things just because something might go wrong. At the same time, no hard IMC with pacs would be prudent for awhile.

Best,

Dave
 
Actually, I basically agree with you, Dave. You are saying that a proficient multi flyer is safe, and I think so, too.
 
wangmyers said:
Actually, I basically agree with you, Dave. You are saying that a proficient multi flyer is safe, and I think so, too.
Click to expand...

It's great we agree; guess it was just the wording. I see many folks stating how dangerous the multis are; they don't add most of the issues are with pilots that didn't react properly or overloaded the plane.

Let's get you up in the P-Baron when you're down Ben; then, we can discuss how dangerous the flight was over margaritas afterward. :D
 
A few months ago I had the throttle in a Beechcraft Sierra jam/fail at essentially idle. I glided back to the airport for a happy successful landing.

At the time it really did not bother me at all, infact I was airborne again right after that.

It wasn't until that night when I had a dream about it that it bothered me. A lot of what if this happend, and what if that happend..etc.

I'm not instrument rated so I can't completely relate to this. When I'm flying VFR I always maintain a visual on my outs if there is a failure. For the first few hours after this incident I was almost expecting it to happen again and wasn't completely comfortable. That feeling faded though like Lance said.

Flying was fun before; it will be fun again. The feeling will fade, just give it some time.
 
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wangmyers said:
On a related note, I see that the Seneca V is supposed to be able to be run at 24 GPH total in cruise. I'd think that you'd have quite a rough-running engine and high temps!
Click to expand...

Ben, I would like to be a proficient multi pilot, but right now the costs wouldn't work. I think I'll be working it out ok with the single once I get some hours of the trouble free operation I was used to.

I don't understand your quote above. Please don't tell me you think 24 GPH must be LOP and that somehow LOP means a rough engine and high CHTs. LOP can lead to a rough engine w/o GAMIs, but true LOP operation gives one lower CHTs. If you meant something else, sorry.
 
Lance-

If you don't feel confident in the aircraft so soon - stick to VFR. It is not worth it. Have a mechanic look everything over again and get some more time before you push it.

For me, if things don't feel right or if I feel that I am pushing the situation to meet a deadline - I don't go. My life is worth too much and luckily the company doesn't second guess my decisions.

A former instructor used to tell me: It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Justin (who loves to beat a dead horse)
 
Dave Siciliano said:
It's great we agree; guess it was just the wording. I see many folks stating how dangerous the multis are; they don't add most of the issues are with pilots that didn't react properly or overloaded the plane.

Let's get you up in the P-Baron when you're down Ben; then, we can discuss how dangerous the flight was over margaritas afterward. :D
Click to expand...
Oh, man--I an DEFINITELY going to take you up on that!

Lance F said:
I don't understand your quote above. Please don't tell me you think 24 GPH must be LOP and that somehow LOP means a rough engine and high CHTs. LOP can lead to a rough engine w/o GAMIs, but true LOP operation gives one lower CHTs. If you meant something else, sorry.
Click to expand...
Nope--I was just dumb. I forgot that the throttle and prop levers actually move. Wow! What a concept!
 
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Things are getting better. Flew 690 NM today from KGKY to home at 9A1. It was VMC the whole way which was good. Not as much tailwind as I had hoped, but made the distance in 4:16 and burned 35 gallons. Cruised at 13,000'.

My pulse when I landed was 10 less than it was on the outbound flight, so the fright factor is decreasing. However, I'm still monitoring the gauges and engine monitor VERY closely.:rolleyes:

Happy New Year to all.
 
Lance;

Glad you had a great return flight home; some years ago I had a mag let go on a short flight and I spent time flying only VFR on trips until I felt comfortable enough. I did not have a forced landing but yes we went to the "nearest" and had a real nice landing. It took me time but the time was spent getting to know my airplane again. It was time well spent.

John
 
Lance F said:
On the red board recently there was a thread titled Night Flight Fright. It was interesting, I thought. Well, it seems I have some demons too.

Some weeks ago I posted about an inflight engine failure I had that ended with a very uneventful and satisfactory outcome. In the end I replaced all components of the ignition system, but never really found the smoking gun. After this work, I've made some shorter local flights and flown some practice approaches without a problem. Checked the engine monitor data for these flights and everything looked fine.

On Monday mornig I launched into IMC conditions for a 5 hour flight to Arlington, TX with my son with me. Frankly I was nervous, very nervous. It was like I was EXPECTING the engine to stop. No, I WAS expecting the engine to quit. After about an hour things were clear below and I was constantly picking out the field I would land in. We were at only 4,000' because of winds; therefore there was very little gliding distance and I knew it.

I seemed to relax a little after about 3 hours and actually was joking a bit when we finally got to the Dallas terminal area (normal DODJE3 arrival). I stuck my oxipulse meter on after we landed. Pulse 95!!!

It will not be good for any ongoing participation in aviation if this feeling continues. It was not fun, and flying should be fun. I know there are a number of members of this board that have had, let's call them, bad experiences, but obviously are still very active pilots today. I've gotta figure my reaction is human and normal. But I hope it's also nornal for the negative feelings to go away. We'll see.

(Maybe 50 kt tailwinds on the way back will help :D )
Click to expand...

It's all perspective. You've had your first real emergency (BTW, the smoking gun was the coils in the mag). It HAS happened to you. You have taken the perspective it WILL happen again. This is correct, however it is limited and doesn't take everything into account does it. It has happenned to me, I dealt with it well and all is good. When it happens again, I will deal with it again and it shall come out good. This is a more complete perspective. Granted, there is a possibility it won't come out good, but if you maintain your vigilence and forethought, your chances are in the top half. We can't go around thinking "Oh my god, something might happen and I'm gonna die", we'd never get out of bed. BTW, 4000 ft is a ton of room, take that from someone who's had 3 emergencies at 5' and still works at treetop level over forests. Trust yourself, and train yourself to a level to make that trust valid. Nothing wrong with a little nervous, just make that hypermentality work for you rather than against you as you did by maintaining hypervigilance and situational awareness. Never let it turn to fear, because fear is paralytic, then you ARE in trouble.
 
Just completed another trip, about 2 hours each way, with passengers. It does get better with time:yes: . So far though I am still monitoring NRST airports much closer and am hypothisizing about viable non-airport landing sites as I fly over various terrain. Never did that before the emergency. At this point I would downgrade my anxiety from nervous to very cautious.
 
Lance F said:
Just completed another trip, about 2 hours each way, with passengers. It does get better with time:yes: . So far though I am still monitoring NRST airports much closer and am hypothisizing about viable non-airport landing sites as I fly over various terrain. Never did that before the emergency. At this point I would downgrade my anxiety from nervous to very cautious.
Click to expand...

Good, and it looks like you learned something from you misshap, hypothesizing about non airport landing sites. Many of them are quite viable for at least survival.
 
Lance,

I think what you are going through is normal and as you can see you're uncertainty is alread waning.

BTW. Did you have a dual mag housed together that caused the failure. HH mentioned a single mag coil. Did you replace it with dual (seperate) mags?
 
Anthony said:
Lance,
Did you have a dual mag housed together that caused the failure. HH mentioned a single mag coil. Did you replace it with dual (seperate) mags?
Click to expand...
Anthony,
Yes, the IO360A3B6D in my model Mooney has the Bendix D3000 dual mag and I put a rebuilt one of those in. I have heard there is an STC to put separate mags on this engine, but that would only be possible during an engine rebuild. I've heard that the change is expensive and must derate the engine a bit because the timing is retarded from 25d BTDC to 20d BTDC.
Although I now believe that the dual mag setup is not ideal, I am prepared to accept it. The difference will be how I monitor it. My plan is to have the mag out, point gap checked and cam lubricant added every 50 hours.
 
Lance F said:
Anthony,
Yes, the IO360A3B6D in my model Mooney has the Bendix D3000 dual mag and I put a rebuilt one of those in. I have heard there is an STC to put separate mags on this engine, but that would only be possible during an engine rebuild. I've heard that the change is expensive and must derate the engine a bit because the timing is retarded from 25d BTDC to 20d BTDC.
Although I now believe that the dual mag setup is not ideal, I am prepared to accept it. The difference will be how I monitor it. My plan is to have the mag out, point gap checked and cam lubricant added every 50 hours.
Click to expand...

Thanks Lance. That makes sense. Do all M20's (E, F, J/201) with that engine use the Bendix D3000 dual mag? I like your monitoring procedure.
 
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