Dark Aero 1

tspear said:
Previously disclosed early on. They are self funded. All were multiple years into their professional careers, living at home and saving every penny they could until they started on the project.
Based on a few other comments, I believe, but have no proof, they are now effectively funded by family.

Tim
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Sounds like a crap business model. Even at 200k a pop they're going to have to sell a lot of kits to pay for 5 years salary for three engineers.
 
They do classes in composites and mold making as a money maker. Think they do OK at that.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like a crap business model. Even at 200k a pop they're going to have to sell a lot of kits to pay for 5 years salary for three engineers.
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I did not bother to go back and watch the videos. But this was a labor of love, not a retirement goal.

Tim
 
steingar said:
Sounds like a crap business model. Even at 200k a pop they're going to have to sell a lot of kits to pay for 5 years salary for three engineers.
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But most of us have a number in mind where you say screw it, and take less now to chase a dream and hope it works out later.

I applaud that.

But after 5 years of not eating, I'm getting hungry.
 
I like these guys and their thoroughness but begin to wonder why they don't start flying the damn thing.
They keep tinkering with (apparently) little stuff that was maybe not optimal but seemed good enough.

Frankly, I doubt that funds are a big concern for them, otherwise they would have started flying and selling their DarkAero1 2 years ago...
 
Last update on the thread approaching a year old, any updates on possible flight tests?
 
I think its cool and i hope theyre successful. I see some of the crazy stuff bought by people with more dollars than sense and i hope these guys can get in on some of that action. It might even inspire other folks to start fabricating a dream, even if its not a financial success.
 
Wow! That's dreaming big! I'd love to see more diesels AND more kit varieties. The deltahawk is a great concept and i hope i can order one someday.
 
alfadog said:
I like the concept, just a little hot rod built for speed and not much else.
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Yeah, agreed - the Porsche model applied to a plane.....but at their current rate of progress I'll be in a retirement home before they get one flying.

I also have zero reason to believe that they can deliver that kit for the $200K stated on their website.

Meanwhile, there's JMB, and they're delivering actual planes today.
 
Last YouTube video posted 6 months ago. Crazy that we thought the plane would fly in 2023.
 
Been wondering about that one myself recently, but instagram posts as recently as a couple of weeks ago.
 
www.darkaero.com

Updates

The latest news and updates on our mission to advance speed, range, and efficiency in aerospace.
www.darkaero.com
 
So they did a taxi test in July 2022. Then "Flight Test Preparation" in November 2022. Then in May 2024, they removed the engine and started doing drop testing on the landing gear.

Probably won't do the first flight until 2030 at this rate.
 
They posted another update today. They are super thorough:
 
I'm wondering if they've got money issues and a lack of investment capital. There's thorough and then there's' we're doing what we can with limited cash flow. The problem as I see it is even though they might have built a better mousetrap, that doesn't mean there's a market for it.
 
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tsts4 said:
I'm wondering if they've got money issues and a lack of investment capital. There's thorough and then there's' we're doing what we can with limited cash flow. The problem as I see it is even though they might have built a better mousetrap, that doesn't mean there's a market for it.
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Early on they covered how DarkAero is being supported. First, the three brothers live together and/were supported by their parents, they do consulting work to cover expense. At one point they covered some new equipment they received which will help with meeting the requirements of current consulting, and will be used for DarkAero production (A much larger/faster CNC along with a huge oven thing if memory serves).
They are hiring staff. My guess, and this is only a guess, the consulting is crowding out time to work on the plane.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Early on they covered how DarkAero is being supported. First, the three brothers live together and/were supported by their parents, they do consulting work to cover expense. At one point they covered some new equipment they received which will help with meeting the requirements of current consulting, and will be used for DarkAero production (A much larger/faster CNC along with a huge oven thing if memory serves).
They are hiring staff. My guess, and this is only a guess, the consulting is crowding out time to work on the plane.

Tim
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I dunno, I'm not an a finance expert, but that doesn't sound like a winning business model to me, especially in aviation unless you're starting out with deep pockets from the get go. Time will tell but if history is any judge, they are swimming upstream. The odds of gaining market share and making a go of it are probably stacked against them. That said, I sincerely hope they succeed.
 
From their 2024 recap:
"These milestones reflect the growth of DarkAero from a small team solely focused on DarkAero 1 development into a larger, more diversified aerospace company. While the DarkAero 1 remains a central focus, the engineering, manufacturing, and testing capabilities developed during its creation have positioned DarkAero to take on a broader range of projects. This growth has enabled sustainable development of the DarkAero 1 while building a foundation for long-term success. Balancing work on the DarkAero 1 with high-value projects for other aerospace organizations has ensured that the vision for DarkAero remains uncompromised."

Allow me to offer a blunt translation: "We found better things to spend our time and money on than building an experimental airplane which will probably make us no money. By doing these other side quests we're able to generate some money to work on our long term hobby building Dark Aero 1."

I don't blame them though. You need money to keep the lights on. And if you're not going to get it through venture funding (and what venture funding is piling into GA?), that means you gotta do it the old fashioned way through regular work. And there's far worse hobbies out there than building a cool plane from the ground up and publishing your work on YT. But I suspect that long term it means that this plane will be constructed very, very slowly and when it is completed it is unlikely to become a production airframe. But I've been wrong plenty of times before and would love to be proven wrong on a sleek, fast 200k$ plane.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
From their 2024 recap:
"These milestones reflect the growth of DarkAero from a small team solely focused on DarkAero 1 development into a larger, more diversified aerospace company. While the DarkAero 1 remains a central focus, the engineering, manufacturing, and testing capabilities developed during its creation have positioned DarkAero to take on a broader range of projects. This growth has enabled sustainable development of the DarkAero 1 while building a foundation for long-term success. Balancing work on the DarkAero 1 with high-value projects for other aerospace organizations has ensured that the vision for DarkAero remains uncompromised."

Allow me to offer a blunt translation: "We found better things to spend our time and money on than building an experimental airplane which will probably make us no money. By doing these other side quests we're able to generate some money to work on our long term hobby building Dark Aero 1."

I don't blame them though. You need money to keep the lights on. And if you're not going to get it through venture funding (and what venture funding is piling into GA?), that means you gotta do it the old fashioned way through regular work. And there's far worse hobbies out there than building a cool plane from the ground up and publishing your work on YT. But I suspect that long term it means that this plane will be constructed very, very slowly and when it is completed it is unlikely to become a production airframe. But I've been wrong plenty of times before and would love to be proven wrong on a sleek, fast 200k$ plane.
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Well, if you're being cynical, yeah, that's one way to summarize it.

But often, passion projects aren't super-lucrative. I can think of one example where tangential business has financed an ulterior goal that is not profitable: Elon Musk and SpaceX.

His whole motivation for getting into the space biz is to go to Mars, but there's currently no money in doing that. So what's he done in the meantime? Create tangential lines of business that can generate revenue yet also develop knowledge, skills, and technology applicable to a future Mars mission.

Had SpX not won a contract to fly cargo to ISS, they would not exist today. Government money on that contract helped them complete development on the reusable Falcon 9, which is now lofting Starlink satellites by the gross in to orbit. Starlink provides a revenue stream independent of government contracts that helps to fund additional development. Starship was originally envisioned as a component of an eventual Mars mission, and was adapted to compete for lunar missions when the Artemis program came along. Now SpX has Artemis-related contracts that are helping to fund development of Starship, which furthers Musk's ambition to eventually carry people to Mars.

By your definition, Musk's dream of going to Mars is also a "hobby". Regardless, both companies have developed goal-adjacent business lines that generate enough revenue in the short term to continue pursuing development in support of long-term goals.
 
Jim_R said:
Well, if you're being cynical, yeah, that's one way to summarize it.
But often, passion projects aren't super-lucrative. I can think of one example where tangential business has financed an ulterior goal that is not profitable: Elon Musk and SpaceX.
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Cynical or realistic? It's hard to tell. And my post clearly highlights my understanding of needing to do work to fund your goal unless you have sufficient capital from other sources.

Jim_R said:
By your definition, Musk's dream of going to Mars is also a "hobby".
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And ha, no, by my definition that's not the case -- because the two are hardly in the same universe on the ambition scale.
Designing and building a sleek GA aircraft today is not comparable to ferrying astronauts on an interplanetary mission on what would be the most ambitious technical challenge humanity has ever undertaken. It makes sense that a company that wants to get to Mars would have many smaller stepping stones along the way before officially proposing a voyage that would require thousands of scientists/engineers and probably cost half a trillion dollars. No one is writing you a check for that to go explore the stars until they have substantial reason to believe you might succeed and do something useful.

DarkAero does not have such an ambitious undertaking. It's a cool project, one they're passionate about, sure. And it's one I like reading about. But I also realize they're still drop testing landing gear they designed 5 years ago, for a project that publicly kicked off 7 years ago. IDK how long it took DickV of Vans or Lance N of Lancair to test their landing gear and get a good version out the door, but my guess is it wasn't 7 years after they started construction (I use them cuz they're two other fast homebuilts that became commercially successful). For DarkAero 1, at some point the progress seems to look more like a hobby and less like a serious commercial venture. And if they keep chipping away at this pace, it's not absurd to suggest they won't flight test until the early 2030s.

And if they flight test this month and have a kit ready to rock by next year, I'll gladly eat my words (and probably buy one). But I just do not think that's going to happen. And it's realism more than cynicism!
 
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I remember hearing of some issue with the engine they are using. I wonder if that's part of the delay? Not their specific engine, but an issue across the brand/model.
 
These guys keep on keeping on. I look forward to each update.

www.darkaero.com

Updates

The latest news and updates on our mission to advance speed, range, and efficiency in aerospace.
www.darkaero.com
 
Hengelo said:
These guys keep on keeping on. I look forward to each update.

www.darkaero.com

Updates

The latest news and updates on our mission to advance speed, range, and efficiency in aerospace.
www.darkaero.com
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I am waiting for the seat load testing in 2032 and fuel tank leak test in 2036.
In the meantime, the Risen and Turbo Shark are available today, and Risen has a parachute.
 
What innovation does the DA offer that isn’t already available on the market? I know it’s sleek, small and fast, but I could buy a Lancair, Glasair etc. today and be done with it. What do you all see in it that makes it so attractive?
 
For me, Glassair and Lancair get the high cruise speed from very high wing loading which then causes extremely high stall speeds and the resulting energy carried into a crash.
DA, in theory, will be much lighter, and therefore have much lower stall speed and not require as much wing loading.

At this point, it is all theory....

Tim
 
Also is there anything not to like about the shark, other than not owning one I mean...
 
I had them refund my deposit. Maybe I will revisit many years in the future! For now, concentrating on getting a Deltahawk into the 182.
 
I can't help but wonder if these brothers are like Henri in Cannery Row. Maybe the plane is constantly being tested and reworked because if ever got finished they would have to face their fear of flying? ;)

For those who didn't read the book, Henri was building a boat. Every time he got close to finishing it, he would claim that it had a flaw or needed a different feature. So he would have to make a change or redo some part of the boat. Because of this, it would never be finished because he was actually afraid of the ocean.
 
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donjohnston said:
I can't help but wonder if these brothers are like Henri in Cannery Row. Maybe the plane is constantly being tested and reworked because if ever got finished they would have to face their fear of flying?

For those who didn't read the book, Henri was building a boat. Every time he got close to finishing it, he would claim that it had a flaw or needed a different feature. So he would have to make a change or redo some part of the boat. Because of this, it would never be finished because he was actually afraid of the ocean.
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There are hours of videos online documenting their progress. Where in those videos do you see evidence of them doing unnecessary work to intentionally postpone their completion?
 
donjohnston said:
I can't help but wonder if these brothers are like Henri in Cannery Row. Maybe the plane is constantly being tested and reworked because if ever got finished they would have to face their fear of flying?

For those who didn't read the book, Henri was building a boat. Every time he got close to finishing it, he would claim that it had a flaw or needed a different feature. So he would have to make a change or redo some part of the boat. Because of this, it would never be finished because he was actually afraid of the ocean.
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Having watched a number of the videos, and discussed this topic a lot over on HBA and with a few engineers I know. I think it is more a case of analysis paralysis combined with trying to do everything "perfect" the first generation. Most of the experienced builders/managers I have discussed this with state DA should have gone with "good enough" and used existing standards/methods and been flying already. They could have then started work on version 2.

Here is one example: firewall construction. They spent a good couple months on it, including building the test stand, running the tests... they could have gone with what Vans, Cirrus, Cessna... pick a company's solution and saved a few months. Likely increased the weight by a few pounds. But the time saving... Now multiple this by a few thousand parts.

Tim
 
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