Damage history = deduct ___%

Deduct what percent of value if NDH?

  • 0-10%

    Votes: 14 63.6%

  • 20%

    Votes: 6 27.3%

  • 30%

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 40% or more

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Total voters
    22
FORANE

FORANE

En-Route
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
4,457
Location
TN
Display Name
FORANE
Home Airfield
0a9
I am considering purchasing a Vans RV-6A which sustained a hard landing resulting in collapsed nose gear, right main gear, prop strike and associated wing / belly damages. This was very soon after first flight and almost 20 years ago. It has been repaired and flying with a new motor for many years.

So, if a plane has a damage history such as in the example above, how much does the group believe it is worth?
 
OK wrong airplane, I wouldn't think it would be much of an issue after 20 years. As always you would want a good pre-purchase inspection to make sure it was fixed correctly.
 
I'd recommend that you PM Jay Honeck who recently purchased an RV. He was exceptionally pleased with the person who advised him and did he prebuy.
 
wabower said:
Deduct from what?
Click to expand...
Sorry. Deduct what percent off of fair market value if the same plane had no damage history. In other words, if a plane with no damage history is worth $1, what percentage of that $1 is that same plane worth given it has a damage history?
 
Last edited:
Depends, what kind of damage, how common is the damage, how well repaired, how long has it been etc etc etc
 
FORANE said:
Sorry. Deduct what percent off of fair market value if the same plane had no damage history. In other words, if a plane with no damage history is worth $1, what percentage of that $1 is that same plane worth given it has a damage history?
Click to expand...

the best answer to that question would be "How much less than fair market value would you be willing to take for damage history on a plane you were selling"?
 
Why wouldn't you just keep your Lancair? Or does it not do overhead breaks well enough? :D
 
By the very nature of a home built aircraft, you are accepting a certain amount of risk. And what would be the fair market price on something one built? Sure the base price might be $50,000 but there's also the labor that went into it. As to damage, did the original owner/builder do all the repairs himself? It has 20 years of flying since. All the above considered, I think it would be difficult to place a percentage off due to any damage done 20 years prior.
 
Cruiser said:
the best answer to that question would be "How much less than fair market value would you be willing to take for damage history on a plane you were selling"?
Click to expand...
I have owned a few cars with salvage titles. Some were put back together better than others and not all damage was readily apparent on inspection. Thus, there is risk in buying and flying a plane with damage history. I can assure you that those cars sold for far less than a similar car with a clean title. I would be willing to take what the market would bear. I just do not know what the airplane market will bear and thus there is risk in buying such a plane as eventually I will sell that plane to another buyer with apprehension of the aircrafts history.

Ted DuPuis said:
Why wouldn't you just keep your Lancair? Or does it not do overhead breaks well enough? :D
Click to expand...
I will be keeping the Lancair. My fiance just took a job that is a 6 hour drive away from home. It would be for her to commute home on weekends.

silver-eagle said:
By the very nature of a home built aircraft, you are accepting a certain amount of risk. And what would be the fair market price on something one built? Sure the base price might be $50,000 but there's also the labor that went into it. As to damage, did the original owner/builder do all the repairs himself? It has 20 years of flying since. All the above considered, I think it would be difficult to place a percentage off due to any damage done 20 years prior.
Click to expand...

Builder did repairs and has since deceased.
 
FORANE said:
I will be keeping the Lancair. My fiance just took a job that is a 6 hour drive away from home. It would be for her to commute home on weekends.
Click to expand...

Excellent use of an airplane. Any reason you wouldn't consider another 235/320/360 for her? More efficient and then with two of the same type that makes it easier to swap planes if one is down for some reason and also easier to maintain two of the same type.

A few years ago I was actually considering buying a 360 as a commuter plane for what would be a ~1 hour flight each way. Either commute daily or on weekends, either would work. Ended up not taking the job.

Just throwing ideas out. :)
 
Last edited:
Ted DuPuis said:
Excellent use of an airplane. Any reason you wouldn't consider another 235/320/360 for her? More efficient and then with two of the same type that makes it easier to swap planes if one is down for some reason and also easier to maintain two of the same type.

A few years ago I was actually considering buying a 360 as a commuter plane for what would be a ~1 hour flight each way. Either commute daily or on weekends, either would work. Ended up not taking the job.

Just throwing ideas out. :)
Click to expand...
Hey Ted
I could get another 235 or Glasair for less than a RV-6A will cost (both acquisition and operating cost). I am afraid the fast glass is just too much for her. She is a new pilot. I bought a 150 to train her which I have since sold. She has flown my 235/320 many times - even under IFR in actual - but she cannot land it. She is short and cannot reach the rudder pedals, cannot see over the nose, and the landing speeds are more than she is comfortable with... I considered a Long-ez but again landing speed...
I figured the RV-6a would be an easier safer transition for her. I considered a certified with more seats which would be nice for the occasional (very rare) trip with friends but operating cost and slower speed decrease the benefit given her mission.
 
FORANE said:
Hey Ted
I could get another 235 or Glasair for less than a RV-6A will cost (both acquisition and operating cost). I am afraid the fast glass is just too much for her. She is a new pilot. I bought a 150 to train her which I have since sold. She has flown my 235/320 many times - even under IFR in actual - but she cannot land it. She is short and cannot reach the rudder pedals, cannot see over the nose, and the landing speeds are more than she is comfortable with... I considered a Long-ez but again landing speed...
I figured the RV-6a would be an easier safer transition for her. I considered a certified with more seats which would be nice for the occasional (very rare) trip with friends but operating cost and slower speed decrease the benefit given her mission.
Click to expand...

I figured that was probably your reason, and an RV-6A will still be zippy and no slouch without some of the harsher flight characteristics that make Lancairs so unforgiving.

I'd agree that the larger certified bird would probably make less sense for that given your stated mission. A Midget Mustang/Mustang II would be another good and efficient option, but then you add tailwheel. The RV is probably the smartest move.
 
FORANE said:
I am considering purchasing a Vans RV-6A which sustained a hard landing resulting in collapsed nose gear, right main gear, prop strike and associated wing / belly damages. This was very soon after first flight and almost 20 years ago. It has been repaired and flying with a new motor for many years.

So, if a plane has a damage history such as in the example above, how much does the group believe it is worth?
Click to expand...

Your house had the roof ripped off by a tornado 20 years ago. The house was properly repaired and you have been living in it trouble free for the last 20 years, how much of a discount are you going to give me if I buy your home?
 
Clip4 said:
Your house had the roof ripped off by a tornado 20 years ago. The house was properly repaired and you have been living in it trouble free for the last 20 years, how much of a discount are you going to give me if I buy your home?
Click to expand...

Airplanes are a little different in that regard, though. Just like the whole logbook issue. If a 50 year old plane is missing the first 30 years of its logbooks, that will still reduce the value even though what happened in that first 30 years is almost certainly irrelevant.
 
FORANE said:
Sorry. Deduct what percent off of fair market value if the same plane had no damage history. In other words, if a plane with no damage history is worth $1, what percentage of that $1 is that same plane worth given it has a damage history?
Click to expand...
Assuming the repairs were done properly and there's no cosmetic issues (extra rows of rivets or seams, etc) and the fix hasn't precipitated any corrosion it's common to reduce the value 10% for the first year or two after the repair but that deduction tapers off to nothing in 10 years or so. The main reason there's any deduction comes from two issues. One is that some buyers will shy away from anything that isn't advertized as "NDH" or at least expect a significant price break so the market is a bit smaller. Of course the reality is that there is no official definition of "NDH" and I've heard some "experts" say that it's likely that a significant fraction of the NDH airplanes actually have some undocumented structural repairs to cure what any rational person would classify as "damage". It's even possible that by purchasing an aircraft with properly performed and recorded repairs is less likely to have hidden defects than one offered as NDH.

The other (more valid) concern is that a serious accident could create some hidden damage that might not surface for years. Depending on the airplane and the skills of the person performing a pre-buy inspection this may or may not be a real issue.
 
Clip4 said:
Your house had the roof ripped off by a tornado 20 years ago. The house was properly repaired and you have been living in it trouble free for the last 20 years, how much of a discount are you going to give me if I buy your home?
Click to expand...
If a violent and highly publicized murder was committed in your house it might just reduce the perceived market value. That's just as ridiculous but buyers can be finicky.
 
After that long ago, with many years of flying since repair, no deduct in price. ;)

What are they asking?

An RV6 just sold in Omaha for $57k. 1800 hours on the airframe and engine, fixed pitch, standard 6 pack, good build.
 
Interesting question but an unanswerable one. "Hey, I bought this plane for $$. Was that a good buy?"

Reply: "Only you will know after you've flow it for several years. Did it give reliable service without any undue or hidden expenses? Are you happy with it? Then the $$ you paid was a good buy."
 
If you're looking for an RV guru to evaluate the plane, PM me. The guy I used will know in ten minutes if the repairs were done right. He will also test fly it for you, and tell you if it flies straight.

As for damage history, if the repairs were done right two decades ago, there is no deduction in value.
 
Skylane81E said:
Depends, what kind of damage, how common is the damage, how well repaired, how long has it been etc etc etc
Click to expand...

Yep!

If it was fixed "like new"' then full market value.

If it had the Tijuana special type repair job, yea might have to adjust the price significantly or maybe walk.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Yep!

If it was fixed "like new"' then full market value.

If it had the Tijuana special type repair job, yea might have to adjust the price significantly or maybe walk.
Click to expand...

The real problem is when you go to sell it. There will be less takers for a plane with damage history, even if it was fixed like new. It will always be a negotiating point and people will question it, just like the OP is doing. If you can get a good deal and the Pre buy is good, go for it, but if the seller wants top dollar, go find a plane with no damage history.
 
Any idea how many planes have undocumented damage history??

Newbe pilots might have a issue, or fall for "no damage history", honestly talk to the seller and do a good prebuy.

My personal plane had it's aileron clipped while tied down back in the 70s, new aileron installed, no BFD. I didn't really care, doest affect the value.
 
Jay Honeck said:
If you're looking for an RV guru to evaluate the plane, PM me. The guy I used will know in ten minutes if the repairs were done right. He will also test fly it for you, and tell you if it flies straight.

As for damage history, if the repairs were done right two decades ago, there is no deduction in value.
Click to expand...
Geico266 said:
After that long ago, with many years of flying since repair, no deduct in price. ;)

What are they asking?

An RV6 just sold in Omaha for $57k. 1800 hours on the airframe and engine, fixed pitch, standard 6 pack, good build.
Click to expand...
Both the RV guys are saying no deduction in value...hmmm. I do not agree. As others have said when I go to sell it potential buyers would also question as I am doing now. In the case of this aircraft, there was significant damage.
To answer the question of what they are asking, I do not know as this is an ebay auction which has not met reserve. I do not believe I will be bidding on this one though. I googled the tail number and discovered the damage history myself; it was not in the description. I emailed the guy and asked him if he would accept sale contingent on prebuy and he said yes, however I also advised him he should disclose the damage history in his auction; he has not added that little tidbit to his listing description.
 
Let's say a factory (like Beech or Cessna) built a plane that suffered damage from a hard landing during test flights. Further assume that the company simply ran the plane back through the production line, removed the damaged parts and restored the plane to its original spec. Since the plane had already received C/A and sign-off, the repairs would require log-book entry but would be all factory-new stuff where required, and all work performed by the same guys who built it the first time.

Isn't repair of damage history by a homebuilder-factory the same logic exercise?

You are obviously hung up on this issue, so it's your call. I don't think it makes jack-beans difference in the price, and am not an RV guy. I am, however, a NAAA certified appraiser

FORANE said:
Both the RV guys are saying no deduction in value...hmmm. I do not agree. As others have said when I go to sell it potential buyers would also question as I am doing now. In the case of this aircraft, there was significant damage.
To answer the question of what they are asking, I do not know as this is an ebay auction which has not met reserve. I do not believe I will be bidding on this one though. I googled the tail number and discovered the damage history myself; it was not in the description. I emailed the guy and asked him if he would accept sale contingent on prebuy and he said yes, however I also advised him he should disclose the damage history in his auction; he has not added that little tidbit to his listing description.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
assume that the damaged parts and restored the plane to its original spec. I am, however, a NAAA certified appraiser
Click to expand...
That word "assume" is the key here.
If you went to the car dealer and he had 2 brand new identical cars. One fell off the car hauler but was repaired to it original spec while the other was undamaged. Would you expect to pay the same price for each? Given the option of paying the same price for each, would you opt for the one that fell off the car hauler but was repaired to original spec?
 
FORANE said:
That word "assume" is the key here.
If you went to the car dealer and he had 2 brand new identical cars. One fell off the car hauler but was repaired to it original spec while the other was undamaged. Would you expect to pay the same price for each? Given the option of paying the same price for each, would you opt for the one that fell off the car hauler but was repaired to original spec?
Click to expand...

Was the damaged car fixed with a slide hammer and bondo or was the body replaced with a new one out of the factory line?

Your analogy would seem to be inapplicable, as I doubt the damage to the RV was hammered out and painted.
 
Are you now buying a new plane or still thinking about one that's 20 years old?
FORANE said:
That word "assume" is the key here.
If you went to the car dealer and he had 2 brand new identical cars. One fell off the car hauler but was repaired to it original spec while the other was undamaged. Would you expect to pay the same price for each? Given the option of paying the same price for each, would you opt for the one that fell off the car hauler but was repaired to original spec?
Click to expand...
 
There seems to be a subset of folks on here who believe damage history has no effect on value. I find this interesting. It is counter-intuitive to me. While I could see some very minor properly repaired damage having little to no effect on fair market value, the example that started this thread had significant damage with 2 of the 3 gears collapsed. To my mind it is not a matter of if the value is effected but to what extent it is effected.
 
In which case you simply need to get over it.

Recent damage usually degrades value. Partly because it's fresh and partly because some problems might surface with the repair or use of the plane.

Damage from 20+ years ago on a plane that's been regularly flown and maintained since, and on which you are entitled by the purchase agreement to conduct a pre-buy is simply not a big deal. A log entry in my 1960 Cessna 180 says the aft fuselage and tail was replaced in 1964. During the pre-buy we could see everything necessary from both inside and outside to determine condition, and somebody had flown it for 3,000 hours since the entry. What am I supposed to do? I can tell you exactly how I will explain it to the next buyer if the question comes up.

Further, since every homebuilt is essentially a one-off anyway, who's to say what the value should be? If you're spooked, simply carry on with your plan and find another one. Just don't expect anybody else to get worked up about it if a similar situation arises again.



FORANE said:
There seems to be a subset of folks on here who believe damage history has no effect on value. I find this interesting. It is counter-intuitive to me. While I could see some very minor properly repaired damage having little to no effect on fair market value, the example that started this thread had significant damage with 2 of the 3 gears collapsed. To my mind it is not a matter of if the value is effected but to what extent it is effected.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
FORANE said:
There seems to be a subset of folks on here who believe damage history has no effect on value. I find this interesting. It is counter-intuitive to me. While I could see some very minor properly repaired damage having little to no effect on fair market value, the example that started this thread had significant damage with 2 of the 3 gears collapsed. To my mind it is not a matter of if the value is effected but to what extent it is effected.
Click to expand...

We looked at an -8A that was rebuilt from a wreck. It looked great -- the guy who rebuilt it is nationally known -- but when my evaluator flew it, it was obvious that something was twisted, either a wing, the empennage, or the airframe itself.

So, we passed on it.

The point you're missing about "damage history" is that it's a sliding scale that changes with the magnitude of the damage, and time. If a main gear was sheared off last year, it will dramatically impact resale value this year.

If that same gear was sheared off in 1974, and was repaired at a factory service center, and has been flying regularly for the intervening decades, it will have zero impact on price.

WRT experimentals, IMHO you need an expert to evaluate them. Build quality varies, and the quality of repaired damage varies, too. They can look great and fly strangely, and they can look strange but fly great. Determining what is a major problem, and what is merely cosmetic, requires a guy who has actually built the type of plane you're looking at buying -- preferably several of them.

Ask an expert to evaluate the plane's flying and build qualities. It will cost you a few bucks, but will either give you peace of mind or save you from making a bad buy.
 
Clip4 said:
Your house had the roof ripped off by a tornado 20 years ago. The house was properly repaired and you have been living in it trouble free for the last 20 years, how much of a discount are you going to give me if I buy your home?
Click to expand...

A house roof(asphalt shingle) has a 15-30 year life span. If it was damaged at 20 years, it was in the middle of it's life span, and roofs are a replacement wear item, whether the wear is by sun, wind, rain, snow, hail or whether it was a one time damage by a storm.

The gear, wing, etc of an airplane is considered a lifetime component and would not normally be a wear item like a roof. Also although some consider a roof to be a structural part of a house, it really isn't. The house will remain standing just fine(although it will leak) with no roof materials on it. However, a plane with no/damaged wing, or no/damged gear is not going anywhere.

As for the damage deduction, I gave it about a 2% deduction estimate. Mostly due to the paperwork question, and not the integrity of the work at this point. If there was a question about the integrity of the repair, there's a good chance it would have been found within the past 20 years.
 
FORANE said:
There seems to be a subset of folks on here who believe damage history has no effect on value. I find this interesting. It is counter-intuitive to me. While I could see some very minor properly repaired damage having little to no effect on fair market value, the example that started this thread had significant damage with 2 of the 3 gears collapsed. To my mind it is not a matter of if the value is effected but to what extent it is effected.
Click to expand...

You're apparently basing the assessment of "significant damage" on a twenty year old incident report. It appears you haven't seen any photos of the damage or repairs and haven't examined repair invoices or logbooks.

These are the things which should determine if the aircraft's value is affected.

I have seen more than a few recommendation online and in print that suggest aircraft value is unaffected by properly accomplished repairs to an aircraft damaged long ago...this suggests the opinions offered by participants in the thread are valid.
 
FORANE said:
Both the RV guys are saying no deduction in value...hmmm. I do not agree. .
Click to expand...

I think you answered you own question. Yes old damage history maters to some and not to others.
So for you find a RV with out any damage history and be happy.:D
 
ron22 said:
I think you answered you own question. Yes old damage history maters to some and not to others.
So for you find a RV with out any damage history and be happy.:D
Click to expand...
Bingo!

Does the damage matter from a safety or risk standpoint? In this case probably not one bit. But it does matter to the fickle buyers that are out there and last I checked, we were still in a buyers market.

So the real question is....how bad do you want this airplane? Is this the airplane you really want, or are you just trying to get the best deal on that model? If it is the one you want - then offer a price the seller will take. If you are trying to get the best deal, discount the price to what you think it is worth and if the seller doesn't like it, you move on to another airplane. That airplane may or may not still be there in a month or two.

If there were 5 comparable models available and aside from the damage history, I'd make a low offer on this one and see if the seller takes it. If this were one of two available and aside from the damage history, this one was a better plane than the other, I wouldn't even consider discounting the price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top