Cylinder Head cost, O-320 engine.

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
What is a "in the ballpark" cost of replacement cylinders for the O-320 engines?

What's a fair number of hours to expect to install, check, and do the paperwork?

A buddy and I are looking at an aircraft that fits our needs, but has not flown very much in the last 24 months. So we need information on cylinders in case the pre-buy determines replacement is warranted.

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Add on question, does the 320 in O-320 represent the displacement like 350 or 5.7L does for cars and trucks?
 
I had one done in the fall, but they sent it in for repair, rather than replacement (scuffing; it was about $800). The remove and replacement time was 6 hours. I bought a new one a few years ago (Lycoming) and if I remember right, it was about $1,100.
 
AggieMike88 said:
What is a "in the ballpark" cost of replacement cylinders for the O-320 engines?

What's a fair number of hours to expect to install, check, and do the paperwork?

A buddy and I are looking at an aircraft that fits our needs, but has not flown very much in the last 24 months. So we need information on cylinders in case the pre-buy determines replacement is warranted.

---------------

Add on question, does the 320 in O-320 represent the displacement like 350 or 5.7L does for cars and trucks?
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Around $1,200 a hole.

O-320 = opposed 320 cubic inch engine.
 
flyingmoose said:
If I was me, I would quote it 4hrs for the first cylinder and 2hrs for each additional cylinder labor time.
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Sounds about right to me. Cowling removal, baffling, harness, plugs, pushrods, cylinders, re-assembly, test run and paperwork.
 
They had to replace a pushrod on mine, so maybe that is why it ran 6 hours? In any case, that is what they charged me for.
 
bnt83 said:
Sounds about right to me. Cowling removal, baffling, harness, plugs, pushrods, cylinders, re-assembly, test run and paperwork.
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I edited it a bit after you quoted that..but its close. Once you get all the BS out of the way, then the others go pretty smooth
 
Aircraft has "chromed" cylinders on a top overhaul back in 1998. Anything here to know or be concerned about?

Is there any "core" value with the existing cylinders? Or is that considered part of the transaction? (cost of cylinder is more if no core provided)
 
AggieMike88 said:
Aircraft has "chromed" cylinders on a top overhaul back in 1998. Anything here to know or be concerned about?
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Yes, there really isn't. If it is running fine, and passes the compression check. run it and don't worry about it. Chrome doesn't rust, the cylinders are your least worry.

What was the last recorded oil usage data?
 
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You dont replace the cylinder heads usually. Its most common to replace the cylinder and head assembly and not many shops can separate them anyway. Most likey what you wil need is a "power assembly", which is the entire kit. cylinder, piston rings etc.
ECI or Superior are around $900-1000ea new, Lyc maybe a little more. Rebuilt ones will save you only a centi buck or so IF they are done correctly.
But standby for what's found inside after it has sat for 2 years. Very possibly or likely the A&P will find corrosion inside on the cam or followers. Most everyone knows this, but what may get missed is the corrosion on the crank or rods. Sometimes disassembly is the only way to find it.
Just insist a prepurchase is done by a good shop, including a look at the oil filter element and possibly pull a cylinder for a look inside. There is no other way to inspect the camshaft or followers, and its not a big deal to pull one for a look inside.
I won't guess on what the labor might be.
Good luck!
 
Do yourself a big favor and just call Sal. Sals cylinders in Prosper TX. About a 20 min drive from you. All your questions will be answered by a pro, and the prices will be the lowest in the country. Call Sal, you won't regret it.
 
Tom-D said:
Yes, there really isn't. If it is running fine, and passes the compression check. run it and don't worry about it. Chrome doesn't rust, the cylinders are your least worry.

What was the last recorded oil usage data?
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No data on oil usage in the engine log book that I have found. Because of the very low usage over the last several years, appears that oil changes were only being done at annual inspection time. No data that I can find in airframe or engine logs showing "added a quart" or "sent filter out for quantitative analysis".
 
docmirror said:
Do yourself a big favor and just call Sal. Sals cylinders in Prosper TX. About a 20 min drive from you. All your questions will be answered by a pro, and the prices will be the lowest in the country. Call Sal, you won't regret it.
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Thanks Docmirror. Googled him and have the phone number written down.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Thanks Docmirror. Googled him and have the phone number written down.
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Tell him Doc with the old Bo sent you. Prices will go up 30%. :D:D

He's a great guy, and did me right many times.
 
I'd be more concerned about the camshaft being rusted. You'll inspect it when the cylinders are off. The time quotes you've received here are conservative. You need to allow for the lifters to be removed inspected and cleaned. The rocker to valve clearance has to be inspected. If not within tolerance, different length pushrods have to be purchased, lifters cleaned again and clearances rechecked.
Check the total time on the cylinders before you go the overhaul route.
 
RichNY said:
I'd be more concerned about the camshaft being rusted. You'll inspect it when the cylinders are off. The time quotes you've received here are conservative. You need to allow for the lifters to be removed inspected and cleaned. The rocker to valve clearance has to be inspected. If not within tolerance, different length pushrods have to be purchased, lifters cleaned again and clearances rechecked.
Check the total time on the cylinders before you go the overhaul route.
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1. you can't remove the lifers in a 0-320 with out splitting the case.
 
You can remove the lifter plunger assembly and clean it. You can't remove the lifter body, as you said.
 
RichNY said:
You can remove the lifter plunger assembly and clean it. You can't remove the lifter body, as you said.
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The lifter body, is where we have the corrosion we worry about. The hydraulic unit is submersed in oil all the time.

The junction between the cam and the lifter is the soft spot in the whole Lycoming line up.
 
docmirror said:
Do yourself a big favor and just call Sal. Sals cylinders in Prosper TX. About a 20 min drive from you. All your questions will be answered by a pro, and the prices will be the lowest in the country. Call Sal, you won't regret it.
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+1. We just did a top end on our club's Cherokee (O-320) and used Sal, very happy, good prices.
 
Tom-D said:
The lifter body, is where we have the corrosion we worry about. The hydraulic unit is submersed in oil all the time.

The junction between the cam and the lifter is the soft spot in the whole Lycoming line up.
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I wasn't pointing out that the lifter or body rusts. My post pointed out the extra time it takes to properly adjust the clearance between the valve and rocker arm.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Thanks Docmirror. Googled him and have the phone number written down.
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AggieMike88: I replaced all four cylinders last year on my 0320-E2d. One of them didn't need replacement because it had passed inspection, but the other three had hairline cracks. My A&P has done 12 of my 13 Annuals, said that I could sell the whole assembly(the good one) as "reliable." Interested? I also have the other three which could be used by somebody as core credits.

HR (All four are packed in the individual boxes in which the TITAN cylinders arrived from Texas.)
 
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Lawreston said:
AggieMike88: I replaced all four cylinders last year on my 0320-E2d. One of them didn't need replacement because it had passed inspection, but the other three had hairline cracks. My A&P has done 12 of my 13 Annuals, said that I could sell the whole assembly(the good one) as "reliable." Interested? I also have the other three which could be used by somebody as core credits.

HR (All four are packed in the individual boxes in which the TITAN cylinders arrived from Texas.)
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Thanks, but at this moment in time, I'll just add you to my resources list. Still to early in the game to know what's needed just yet.
 
Chrome cylinders aren't your concern, they'll be fine, you need to worry about the camshaft. Yes, 320= cubic inches, 30 less than a 350, about 5.4 liters.
 
Like they said -- about $1200 per cylinder, plus the 6/2 hours labor per cylinder.

And since you're looking at a Cheetah, you'd be wise to consider the high compression STC from Precision Engine to give you a really nice boost in power for takeoff and climb. The HC cylinder assemblies are the same price as the original compression assemblies, and the only additional cost if you're doing it at the same time as the cylinder swap you are proposing is $500 for the STC paperwork and the metal tag to be added to the engine showing the STC has been done.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Is there any "core" value with the existing cylinders? Or is that considered part of the transaction? (cost of cylinder is more if no core provided)
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If you're having the existing cylinders overhauled and returned, yes, there is core value. However, since the original cylinders have been overhauled at least once already, overhauling them a second time is not recommended by the engine experts I know -- too great an incidence of premature cracking in third (or more) run cylinders. That said, when I did the HC STC 15 years ago on the Cheetah we had then, installing factory-new Lycoming assemblies, I sold my four old cylinders to an overhaul shop as cores for about $200 each.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Aircraft has "chromed" cylinders on a top overhaul back in 1998. Anything here to know or be concerned about?
Click to expand...

Not really but in general cylinders are chromed because they were worn beyond limits so basically it means they are older - have more total hours on them.
 
I have a couple of threads on here about cylinder replacements for my O320. I have had two bad experiences with ECI and cannot nor would I ever recommend those to you. I put OEM ones on the last time and am very happy. Cost for all four was about $3600 + labor. Took about 6 hours total each time. I did some of the work myself. Mostly to get familiar with the engine and not to save cash. The labor I did was to clean stuff, take apart things, general grunt work, etc.


Sent from my MINiPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I have overhauled three planes (4 engines) using ECI cylinders and totally pleased.
Their rings are the best in the business.
I do use only Lyc wrist pins, however.

Take it for what it is worth - ymmv, bni, sar :)
 
As with anything else in aviation this is a loaded question.

New lycomng jugs can be bought for about $1000 ea brand new including shipping and you do not require to have a old serviceable jug to give them. You can buy the jugs yourself from many sorces and supply it to the mechanic so their is no need for his marking up $200 on it.

Rebuilt jugs can be purchased from $399 for a partial build up or $799 for a complete build up.

Labor to RR jugs on a simple plane like a 172 or Cherokee is about 2-3 hrs to take off the exhaust stuff and 1 hr per jug to Remove and replace. If both jugs are replaced on one side then figure 4 maybe 5 hrs.

If all 4 jugs are replaced at once then they should be able to do it for 8 hrs.

I would recommend you try and get rebuilt jugs with the Nickel nitrate surface or cermiNil treatment as it protects against rust if you do not fly every week through out the year. Living in tx might not be a problem anyway if the air is dry.

Chrome was a bad idea so good time to get rid of them. I would not replace out a perfectly working jug just because it has chrome but I would not be sorry to see it go either.

AggieMike88 said:
What is a "in the ballpark" cost of replacement cylinders for the O-320 engines?

What's a fair number of hours to expect to install, check, and do the paperwork?

A buddy and I are looking at an aircraft that fits our needs, but has not flown very much in the last 24 months. So we need information on cylinders in case the pre-buy determines replacement is warranted.

---------------

Add on question, does the 320 in O-320 represent the displacement like 350 or 5.7L does for cars and trucks?
Click to expand...
 
If your engine has some hours on it, no sense putting a new jug on top of it. Particularly if you can get a good quality rebuilt jug.

If you determine new is the way to go and if Lycoming buy factory. However if conti I'd go for something like the Eci. You cannot get the nickel nitro on new Lycomings.
.
Tom-D said:
take your choice

http://www.aircraft-specialties.com/o-235-o-320-o-360-replacement-cylinders/?sort=alphadesc

I'd not worry about new cylinder price until you ship them to Charley Malot and he says buy new.
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AggieMike88 said:
No data on oil usage in the engine log book that I have found. Because of the very low usage over the last several years, appears that oil changes were only being done at annual inspection time. No data that I can find in airframe or engine logs showing "added a quart" or "sent filter out for quantitative analysis".
Click to expand...

My Cherokee had 8000 hrs, 2000 TSMOH and flew only 24 hrs the last two years before I bought it, so I was worried but after flying 50 hrs all the compressions increased to mid 70's so I was good for 400 hrs. It was a full 20 months before I needed any of the jugs replaced.

Don't fix it unless it needs fixing. Save your maintenance dollar for what the airplane tells you it needs. Listen to your airplane.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Chrome was a bad idea so good time to get rid of them. I would not replace out a perfectly working jug just because it has chrome but I would not be sorry to see it go either.
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Chrome cylinders are keeping many thousands of older engines in service that are no longer supported by their manufacturer. So, IMHO they have their place and usefulness.

But to worry about any engine simply because it sat for a while isn't some thing I'd waist my time doing.

From What I read here this engine sat in Texas with chrome cylinders, unless there were other discrepancies I'd run it and spend my money on fuel.

If this engine runs 5 hours with out making metal, it will run many more.
 
I agree 100%. Did not mean to imply to replace a jug because of chrome. Fly it till the plane tells you it needs maintenance. :)

Tom-D said:
Chrome cylinders are keeping many thousands of older engines in service that are no longer supported by their manufacturer. So, IMHO they have their place and usefulness.

But to worry about any engine simply because it sat for a while isn't some thing I'd waist my time doing.

From What I read here this engine sat in Texas with chrome cylinders, unless there were other discrepancies I'd run it and spend my money on fuel.

If this engine runs 5 hours with out making metal, it will run many more.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
If your engine has some hours on it, no sense putting a new jug on top of it. Particularly if you can get a good quality rebuilt jug.
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Problem with overhauled or rebuilt cylinder assemblies is unless you've owned the assembly since new, you have no idea how many times it's been overhauled -- there are no records on that which stay with the assembly. Given the cracking issues on cylinder assemblies on their third or more run, the engine experts I know all suggest avoiding rebuilt or overhauled cylinders of unknown history.

That said, my current cylinders were installed new about 1350 hours ago, and when the time comes, I will most likely have them overhauled and returned rather than replaced with new or exchanged for overhauled cylinders of unknown history.
 
Dr. O said:
I have overhauled three planes (4 engines) using ECI cylinders and totally pleased.
Their rings are the best in the business.
I do use only Lyc wrist pins, however.

Take it for what it is worth - ymmv, bni, sar :)
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+1 on the ECI. My four new cylinder assemblies from 2012 now have about 50+ hours on them. (Original Lycoming wrist pins from November 1970 were re-used.)
From a couple days ago I note: "GREAT flying day today, went to RKD, burned 8.55 in 1.4 hrs. Yay for the tuned exhaust." (That's 6.1 GPH.)

HR
 
Tom-D said:
Chrome cylinders are keeping many thousands of older engines in service that are no longer supported by their manufacturer. So, IMHO they have their place and usefulness....
Click to expand...

I'd add that if you're talking about an engine that has sat idle for a number of years chrome cylinders would probably be an asset.
 
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