Currency question double check?

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I'm PIC, current and experienced flying from the right seat. My buddy in the left seat isn't current. He flies with me, does three takeoffs and landing. Voila, he's current, right?

If he flies alone, he's PIC, he does three takeoffs and landings, and he's current, too.

So there's no requirement for currency that you be PIC, and if the other person is PIC (and comfortable flying from the right side) then you're not breaking the rules to have another person in the plane because you're not PIC.

Right? Or is there a FAR I'm forgetting?
 
Talking about current flying with passengers?

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Unregistered said:
I'm PIC, current and experienced flying from the right seat. My buddy in the left seat isn't current. He flies with me, does three takeoffs and landing. Voila, he's current, right?

If he flies alone, he's PIC, he does three takeoffs and landings, and he's current, too.

So there's no requirement for currency that you be PIC, and if the other person is PIC (and comfortable flying from the right side) then you're not breaking the rules to have another person in the plane because you're not PIC.

Right? Or is there a FAR I'm forgetting?
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You are correct.
 
In case there was an FAR he had forgotten? This sounds like a retrospective question to me.
 
I didn't think he could get current with you (a passenger technically) on board. Or at least that's what one of my threads told me.
 
farmerbrake said:
I didn't think he could get current with you (a passenger technically) on board. Or at least that's what one of my threads told me.
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In this scenario, *he* is the passenger. You are PIC (by prior agreement). He logs the TOLs by the sole manipulator rule.
 
You have it right. He can get currency back either by flying solo or as the sole manipulator of the controls with someone else as pilot in command or while getting instruction from an authorized instructor (who would not be considered a passenger).
 
Did the same thing several years ago when I wasn't current to carry passengers and my instructor lost his medical. Did some takeoffs and landings with a crop duster friend in his Citabria.

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OP didn't say he's a flight instructor so he's a passenger and this would not be legal. Hence anonymous post.

Edit - you know, I really can't see this as being illegal per the FARs but it just doesn't feel right. My guess is it didn't feel right to the OP, either. Assuming the OP is not a flight instructor.
 
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alfadog said:
OP didn't say he's a flight instructor so he's a passenger and this would not be legal. Hence anonymous post.
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No, he said he's PIC. If he's PIC he's not a passenger. As long as he meets the requirements for PIC (rated in the plane and current, current and valid medical), and as long as both pilots agree he's PIC, this is completely legal
Edit - you know, I really can't see this as being illegal per the FARs but it just doesn't feel right. My guess is it didn't feel right to the OP, either. Assuming the OP is not a flight instructor.
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Most likely he just wasn't sure so he posted anonymously. But whether it "feels" right or not, it IS legal. Perhaps (or perhaps not) unwise - as C'Ron was fond of pointing out, since with PIC comes responsibility - but definitely legal.
 
azure said:
No, he said he's PIC. If he's PIC he's not a passenger. As long as he meets the requirements for PIC (rated in the plane and current, current and valid medical), and as long as both pilots agree he's PIC, this is completely legal

Most likely he just wasn't sure so he posted anonymously. But whether it "feels" right or not, it IS legal. Perhaps (or perhaps not) unwise - as C'Ron was fond of pointing out, since with PIC comes responsibility - but definitely legal.
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Well, in this case, if the guy in the right seat is PIC, then the guy in the left seat is nothing, as far as a crew member. He cannot log the time. In a sense, he cannot log the takeoffs and landings. I don't know if that's relevant.
 
alfadog said:
Well, in this case, if the guy in the right seat is PIC, then the guy in the left seat is nothing, as far as a crew member. He cannot log the time. In a sense, he cannot log the takeoffs and landings. I don't know if that's relevant.
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He absolutely CAN log the time and the takeoffs and landings, under the "sole manipulator of the controls" rules. The guy in the right seat, the one acting as PIC and with ultimate responsibility for the flight, CANNOT log the time, though.
 
bradg33 said:
He absolutely CAN log the time and the takeoffs and landings, under the "sole manipulator of the controls" rules. The guy in the right seat, the one acting as PIC and with ultimate responsibility for the flight, CANNOT log the time, though.
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That "sole manipulator" thing has to do with logging PIC. Look at the regulations. Ok, I'm think I'm getting somewhere with this. Here's what we've got in the FARs.

The below is the type of time that you log. Our fellow in the left seat was none of these.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training—

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.

The below is how logging time relates to currency requirements:

(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

I see no way our fellow in the left seat could have logged the required takeoffs and landings and logging them is required to meet the currency requirement.
 
Couldn't the left seat just log the time he is at the controls as single engine land and the three landings, nothing else?
Why would he have to log solo, PIC, SIC, Dual for that time to count or for the landings to count?
He just needs to be the sole manipulator of the controls during the takeoffs and landings.

a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.
 
alfadog said:
That "sole manipulator" thing has to do with logging PIC. Look at the regulations. Ok, I'm think I'm getting somewhere with this. Here's what we've got in the FARs.

The below is the type of time that you log. Our fellow in the left seat was none of these.
.
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But he does meet this:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Think about a Safety pilot, the guy holding the yoke doesn't need to be IR but can still log it while under the hood, and the other guy looking out the window can too.
 
It's not that difficult. The poster had it right from the get go.
As long as the poster is the pilot in command, the not-current guy can get his currency back by doing three takeoffs and landings as the sole manipulator.

Nothing requires the guy getting his currency back to be the pilot in command nor even to log it as the pilot in command (though he clearly could under the rules).
 
I think we are confusing things by talking about left seat/right seat. In this scenario there is Pilot A, the PIC, and Pilot B, the passenger. The OP is pilot A who let his buddy, the passenger Pilot B, do three takeoffs and landings for currency. It doesn't matter what seat either of them is sitting in, and it is legal.
 
I would say he can't log it as PIC, because he is not current to carry passengers and the other pilot is not acting as a safety pilot capacity since one isn't needed for takeoffs and landings. The other pilot is the only PIC unless they start doing some sim inst flight.
 
Everskyward said:
I think we are confusing things by talking about left seat/right seat. In this scenario there is Pilot A, the PIC, and Pilot B, the passenger. The OP is pilot A who let his buddy, the passenger Pilot B, do three takeoffs and landings for currency. It doesn't matter what seat either of them is sitting in, and it is legal.
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You're right, seat selection is meaningless. I guess I still lean towards it being legal. It just still seems a little gray to me.
 
ifly4fun said:
But he does meet this:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Think about a Safety pilot, the guy holding the yoke doesn't need to be IR but can still log it while under the hood, and the other guy looking out the window can too.
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Yes, but a safety pilot situation is one that has two required crew members. Here we have a situation where a fellow that wants to complete his currency is not a crew member. I guess that's possible.
 
Left seat, right seat, front seat, rear seat. Doesn't matter if there are controls there.

Acting PIC. You have to be current / rated / etc.

Logging PIC: You have to be rated (as in SEL) and sole manipulator (with a few exceptions such as required crewmember and acting).

Rules for acting as PIC are different than rules for logging PIC.

Someone has to act. Someone gets to log. Could be different people.


Acting does not equal logging.

Logging does not equal acting.

Logging and acting are two totally different things that only sometimes overlap.
 
Van Johnston said:
Oh, if only there was a flowchart somewhere to make all this clear.....
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LOL, I just have trouble wrapping my mind around having two PICs on a flight that does not require more than one pilot or flightcrew member. If that were the case, they could both log PIC time but they can't. Do we at least agree that the fellow in the right seat (I know I know) cannot log PIC time even though he is supposedly the agreed-upon PIC?

Edit - this goes to those that claim that left seat guy can log PIC as sole manipulator. Not addressing whether one can satisfy currency requirements while not PIC.
 
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Van Johnston said:
Oh, if only there was a flowchart somewhere to make all this clear.....
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My guess is that that flowchart has no way two guys flying along without a hood or a CFI in the cabin can both log PIC in a little airplane.
 
jaymark6655 said:
I would say he can't log it as PIC, because he is not current to carry passengers and the other pilot is not acting as a safety pilot capacity since one isn't needed for takeoffs and landings. The other pilot is the only PIC unless they start doing some sim inst flight.
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On what do you base this? All he needs to log PIC is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated.

In this case the other pilot is acting in pilot capacity because he IS THE PILOT IN COMMAND. What you don't have is on operation requiring more than one pilot (which I think you are trying to get at by bringing up safety pilots), but it is irrelevant to the issues at hand.

Being qualified to be PIC (current, BFR, etc...) is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to log PIC time.
 
alfadog said:
LOL, I just have trouble wrapping my mind around having two PICs on a flight that does not require more than one pilot or flightcrew member. If that were the case, they could both log PIC time but they can't. Do we at least agree that the fellow in the right seat (I know I know) cannot log PIC time even though he is supposedly the agreed-upon PIC?

Edit - this goes to those that claim that left seat guy can log PIC as sole manipulator. Not addressing whether one can satisfy currency requirements while not PIC.
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Quit that left seat/right seat stuff! There are not two PICs. There is only one PIC and one passenger. The PIC is letting the passenger fly.
 
Everskyward said:
Quit that left seat/right seat stuff! There are not two PICs. There is only one PIC and one passenger. The PIC is letting the passenger fly.
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Don't get your panties in such a bunch. :D The left seat / right seat comes from the OP's description and is simply shorthand for talking about who is who in this situation.

"I'm PIC, current and experienced flying from the right seat. My buddy in the left seat isn't current."

So would you agree that only the PIC can log PIC time here and that the passenger cannot?

Now, was it any clearer who I am referring to if I leave out left seat / right seat?
 
alfadog said:
Don't get your panties in such a bunch. :D The left seat / right seat comes from the OP's description and is simply shorthand for talking about who is who in this situation.

"I'm PIC, current and experienced flying from the right seat. My buddy in the left seat isn't current."

So would you agree that only the PIC can log PIC time here and that the passenger cannot?

Now, was it any clearer who I am referring to if I leave out left seat / right seat?
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Yes you would be clearer if you left it out because people have muddled the original post with other left-seat/right-scenarios which were the opposite of the OP's.
 
alfadog said:
"I'm PIC, current and experienced flying from the right seat. My buddy in the left seat isn't current."
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Yes, for some value of "flying". You are not manipulating the controls, but you (or the OP) are legal PIC.
So would you agree that only the PIC can log PIC time here and that the passenger cannot?
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Actually, no. In this case the legal PIC cannot log anything. The only one who can log anything is the passenger, who is sole manipulator of the controls.
 
azure said:
Yes, for some value of "flying". You are not manipulating the controls, but you (or the OP) are legal PIC.

Actually, no. In this case the legal PIC cannot log anything. The only one who can log anything is the passenger, who is sole manipulator of the controls.
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Not sure I buy that the PIC of the airplane cannot log PIC. That goes against the bit of the FARs that I posted earlier. My claim is that the passenger can log nothing as regards being flightcrew; that is why we call him the passenger.
 
alfadog said:
Not sure I buy that the PIC of the airplane cannot log PIC. That goes against the bit of the FARs that I posted earlier. My claim is that the passenger can log nothing as regards being flightcrew; that is why we call him the passenger.
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What FAR? THere's nothing in 61.51 that says "log pic when you are pic." As I stated, being pilot in command is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to log it. To explain that, there are times you can log PIC when you are not PIC and there are times you can not log PIC when you are PIC.

The person who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated 61.51 (e)(1)(i).
 
azure said:
Yes, for some value of "flying". You are not manipulating the controls, but you (or the OP) are legal PIC.

Actually, no. In this case the legal PIC cannot log anything. The only one who can log anything is the passenger, who is sole manipulator of the controls.
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OK, I looked at come counsel interpretations and stand corrected. You can be legal PIC and not be able to log PIC. The pilot flying logs the PIC and can therefore log the currency. Only one pilot can log the PIC, which is how I had it; I just had the wrong pilot.
 
jaymark6655 said:
I would say he can't log it as PIC, because he is not current to carry passengers and the other pilot is not acting as a safety pilot capacity since one isn't needed for takeoffs and landings. The other pilot is the only PIC unless they start doing some sim inst flight.
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Logging vs Acting!!!!! :mad2:
 
jaymark6655 said:
I would say he can't log it as PIC, because he is not current to carry passengers and the other pilot is not acting as a safety pilot capacity since one isn't needed for takeoffs and landings. The other pilot is the only PIC unless they start doing some sim inst flight.
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OK, I was kind of where you were but I see it differently now, especially after this discussion and reviewing the reg. The number one requirement or qualification or criteria (best term) for being able to log pilot in command time is "sole manipulator of the controls". That trumps everything. If the sole manipulator is rated in category and class and type, if required, then he can log PIC. Medical and currency is not an issue as far as logging the time; it is an issue as far as acting as the legal pilot in command. A second pilot in the cockpit can also log PIC if and only if the airplane or the conditions of flight require two pilots and the non-flying pilot is the agreed-upon "acting as" pilot in command. But the important thing is that hands-on as sole manipulator trumps everything.
 
Thanks, I think I got it now. I was only looking at 65.57 (acting), but after reading 65.51 (logging) I see were I was wrong.

Just to make sure I have it, the current pilot is acting pilot in command, but can't log it and the noncurrent pilot on the controls is the sole manipulator so he can log PIC, but isn't able to act as the PIC. If that isn't confusing.
 
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