Crosswind Landings and Jets

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Apache123

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Hey, Steve!
I'm just curious how much the jet pilots on this board are impacted by crosswinds. Given how much heavier the aircraft air as well as their higher approach speeds, I don't picture the larger aircraft having to adjust as much.
 
Apache123 said:
I'm just curious how much the jet pilots on this board are impacted by crosswinds. Given how much heavier the aircraft air as well as their higher approach speeds, I don't picture the larger aircraft having to adjust as much.
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They handle just like we do and you can tell it while riding in the back if careful attention is paid. Sometimes if they don't quite get kicked out of the crab (for the crab-n-kick guys) ya don't have to pay "careful" attention at all.

On one trip into Denver the driver went wing low many miles out and flew it steady down to a perfect right-main-first, left-main-second, and then a gentle nosewheel touch-down. That was one where the grinning pilot stood outside the cockpit as the pax self-unloaded.
 
Then there's the Southwest 737 I took to Burbank once.

The pilot must have been in the Navy at one point. I think he caught the 3rd wire.

You can calculate the WCA as a function of approach speed. For a given crosswind, it's less for the higher speeds. Jets typically approach at twice the speed of a 172, or even faster.
 
Been thinking of this as well, watch some YouTube videos of these guys in crosswind landing sessions some are pretty wild
 
Apache123 said:
I'm just curious how much the jet pilots on this board are impacted by crosswinds. Given how much heavier the aircraft air as well as their higher approach speeds, I don't picture the larger aircraft having to adjust as much.
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I think you would be surprised at the amount of correction it can take to get it lined up. Not a whole lot of difference.
Clark1961 said:
They handle just like we do and you can tell it while riding in the back if careful attention is paid. Sometimes if they don't quite get kicked out of the crab (for the crab-n-kick guys) ya don't have to pay "careful" attention at all.
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Well yes, but I was really discouraged from slipping a swept wing jet. I know there is going to be varying opinions of this and I have seen guys do it, but 99% of everyone I flew jets with lined up at the runway (crab-n-kick).
 
I'm curious whether the differences are any different than those suggested by the physics?

That is, the higher approach speeds mean that the correction required for any given crosswind will be less since the crosswind is a smaller percentage of the forward speed.

And the impact of gusts will be less because of higher wing loadings.
 
Clark1961 said:
They handle just like we do
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Generally speaking, that's true. Exceptions include the B-52, C-5, and (IIRC) C-17, which have castering landing gear so they can land in a crab (the wings being too long to land in a slip without dragging an outboard engine on the ground).
 
While the jets are heavier and faster they also have a great deal more area to catch the crosswind. We handle it much like the GA drivers. My best was a 38kt direct cross wind into Beijing china in the 777. All the Chinese carriers were going around and some actually flew to alternates as it was too much xwind for them. Upon landing the tower asked us to report our cross wind limit as we were the only aircraft to not go around in the last half hour.
 
Clark1961 said:
They handle just like we do and you can tell it while riding in the back if careful attention is paid. Sometimes if they don't quite get kicked out of the crab (for the crab-n-kick guys) ya don't have to pay "careful" attention at all.

On one trip into Denver the driver went wing low many miles out and flew it steady down to a perfect right-main-first, left-main-second, and then a gentle nosewheel touch-down. That was one where the grinning pilot stood outside the cockpit as the pax self-unloaded.
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That's one where you complement him on the nice job. He earned it.

MAKG1 said:
Then there's the Southwest 737 I took to Burbank once.

The pilot must have been in the Navy at one point. I think he caught the 3rd wire.

You can calculate the WCA as a function of approach speed. For a given crosswind, it's less for the higher speeds. Jets typically approach at twice the speed of a 172, or even faster.
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I had a similar experience years ago on a Lufthansa 727 into Nuremburg. I think that pilot was a frustrated carrier pilot wannabe, too. :D
 
Apache123 said:
I'm just curious how much the jet pilots on this board are impacted by crosswinds. Given how much heavier the aircraft air as well as their higher approach speeds, I don't picture the larger aircraft having to adjust as much.
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Lots of surface area so the large airplanes are affected just as much.

Jets have their own unique challenges in crosswinds (depending on model). On some jets with low slung wing mounted engines you have to be careful not to drag an engine pod. Slipping on final can also raise wing spoilers which in turn add drag which in turn require more thrust.

All in all it's just a crosswind, make your corrections and fly down to the runway.
 
MAKG1 said:
Then there's the Southwest 737 I took to Burbank once.

The pilot must have been in the Navy at one point. I think he caught the 3rd wire.

You can calculate the WCA as a function of approach speed. For a given crosswind, it's less for the higher speeds. Jets typically approach at twice the speed of a 172, or even faster.
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Pilawt said:
On that 5,800-foot-long runway with no overruns, style points don't count. Plant it, then throw out the anchor.

:yikes:
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Yep. 5800 is not a long runway in terms of a transport jet and trying to "grease it on" on a relative short runway with a crosswind is bad technique that may wind one up in the weeds. :nono:
 
Cross wind affects everything in the air the same. However there are considerations in a jet. First you're going faster so the cross wind component is a smaller percentage of your speed. Still, it's going to need to be corrected for. Also, jets with engines mounted under the wings need to be aware of bank in a slip. Typically a crab is held to the flare or even landed in the crab as Cap'n Ron mentioned.

Another consideration is the engine intakes with a cross wind. Jet engines like the airflow going straight into to intake. This is especially true of ducted intakes like the center engine of a B727. This is more of an issue on crosswind take offs with full power and maximum crosswind component. Ie, 20 kt ground speed and 25 kt winds on the wing tip. In the case of the ducted engine inlet, in this situation you can frequently get a compressor stall. This is a very violent event and wakes you right up. Usually you can fix it by bleeding the engine and a good FE will be right on it by the 2nd pop.

As for non-ducted engines, many procedures are to turn on the igniters above a certain crosswind component. The goal with a jet is to protect that little ball of fire in the can and weird inlet angles could threaten it.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Generally speaking, that's true. Exceptions include the B-52, C-5, and (IIRC) C-17, which have castering landing gear so they can land in a crab (the wings being too long to land in a slip without dragging an outboard engine on the ground).
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Couple of minor points. To the best of my knowledge, the C-17 never had a dedicated crosswind crab system. The B-52 is the only one on that list that has and continues to operate a crosswind crab system on the landing gear. The C-5 had it until the 80s, but they removed it due to the PITA that it was to maintain and operate, which does describes the Fred in general. Since then, the Fred lands without one. The only one on that list to have a wingspan that exceeds its length is the Buff. That said, many low-slung engine setups like the 707 variants and 737s do have to watch their bank angle on touchdown, or risk scraping a pod, even though their wingspans don't necessitate a landing gear crosswind crab system like the Buff does.

Interesting to note, the T-38 lacks a crosswind crab system but the landing technique calls for and allows touching down the mains in a crab and its associated sideloading, with the provision that the airframe be aligned with the runway before nosewheel gear touchdown. This is similar to many heavy civilian airlifters.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Interesting to note, the T-38 lacks a crosswind crab system but the landing technique calls for and allows touching down the mains in a crab and its associated sideloading, with the provision that the airframe be aligned with the runway before nosewheel gear touchdown. This is similar to many heavy civilian airlifters.
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757/767 can use this technique.
 
Fly it just like anything else. Crab it in...transition to wing low...the height when you make the transition is what might vary depending on airplane. I fly a jet the same way I would fly a Pitts or Citabria (minus that little wheel on the back of course).
 
RotorAndWing said:
Yep. 5800 is not a long runway in terms of a transport jet and trying to "grease it on" on a relative short runway with a crosswind is bad technique that may wind one up in the weeds. :nono:
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Or a Gas Station.

1.jpg
 
N53KL said:
What Moose said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la-hSjKP2TU
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Did you notice the 737 at about the 3:40 mark? He landed in a crab and was taxiing in a crab. As someone mentioned, there is small degree of caster in the 737 main gear. Kind of weird taxiing out behind one that is taxiing sideways. :yes:

The 737 at about the 5:55 point exhibits the same traits.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Did you notice the 737 at about the 3:40 mark? He landed in a crab and was taxiing in a crab. As someone mentioned, there is small degree of caster in the 737 main gear. Kind of weird taxiing out behind one that is taxiing sideways. :yes:

The 737 at about the 5:55 point exhibits the same traits.
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Boeing borrow the old Cessna x-wind gear?
 
How does my previous post get passed up without comment? OP asked about x wind differences with jets and I mentioned reduced percentage of speed and take off considerations that nobody had even brought up. I thought it was pretty on point...and yet, crickets.

Is it me?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Couple of minor points. To the best of my knowledge, the C-17 never had a dedicated crosswind crab system. The B-52 is the only one on that list that has and continues to operate a crosswind crab system on the landing gear. The C-5 had it until the 80s, but they removed it due to the PITA that it was to maintain and operate, which does describes the Fred in general. Since then, the Fred lands without one. The only one on that list to have a wingspan that exceeds its length is the Buff. That said, many low-slung engine setups like the 707 variants and 737s do have to watch their bank angle on touchdown, or risk scraping a pod, even though their wingspans don't necessitate a landing gear crosswind crab system like the Buff does.

Interesting to note, the T-38 lacks a crosswind crab system but the landing technique calls for and allows touching down the mains in a crab and its associated sideloading, with the provision that the airframe be aligned with the runway before nosewheel gear touchdown. This is similar to many heavy civilian airlifters.
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Very interesting, thanks for the insight!
 
Captain said:
How does my previous post get passed up without comment? OP asked about x wind differences with jets and I mentioned reduced percentage of speed and take off considerations that nobody had even brought up. I thought it was pretty on point...and yet, crickets.

Is it me?
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Well, if it is reasonable, why comment? Nothing to argue with. :D

However, since you asked . . .

Captain said:
First you're going faster so the cross wind component is a smaller percentage of your speed. Still, it's going to need to be corrected for.
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True.

Also, jets with engines mounted under the wings need to be aware of bank in a slip. Typically a crab is held to the flare or even landed in the crab as Cap'n Ron mentioned.
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Well, that depends. If the crosswind component isn't all that great, landing in a slip is no big deal. If the crosswind exceeds a certain value, a combination of slip and crab is used. I can only speak to the 777 but when the autopilot is flying, the slip is introduced at about 400 feet. There are crosswind limits when using autoland, so the airplane actually landing in a crab on an autoland approach is highly unlikely.

When landing manually, any crosswind component that exceeds 30 knots requires landing in a combination of crab and slip. And theoretically, a flap would drag before an engine pod. But I haven't actually seen any geometry on that.

Another consideration is the engine intakes with a cross wind. Jet engines like the airflow going straight into to intake. This is especially true of ducted intakes like the center engine of a B727. This is more of an issue on crosswind take offs with full power and maximum crosswind component. Ie, 20 kt ground speed and 25 kt winds on the wing tip. In the case of the ducted engine inlet, in this situation you can frequently get a compressor stall. This is a very violent event and wakes you right up. Usually you can fix it by bleeding the engine and a good FE will be right on it by the 2nd pop.
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As far as I know, that is all true. However, there aren't very many airplanes left in the domestic fleet that require a flight engineer.

As for non-ducted engines, many procedures are to turn on the igniters above a certain crosswind component. The goal with a jet is to protect that little ball of fire in the can and weird inlet angles could threaten it.
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I have heard of that with regard to turbulence, but not for a crosswind. Not saying it isn't so, just not on anything I have flown, that I recall.

There you go. :D Happy? :wink2:
 
RotorAndWing said:
757/767 can use this technique.
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It's in our manual for the 747-400 too.

The other issue on some jets is that the preferred method is the kick the crab out as there are clearance issues with engine nacelles and flaps.
 
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