EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Perhaps you don't actually know what a crab is, or your 194.2 hours are all on Flight Simulator.
Crosswind landing pointers?
- Thread starter JasonM
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Perhaps you don't actually know what a crab is, or your 194.2 hours are all on Flight Simulator.
Not sure what your reading and comprehension problem is, but "crab to just prior to the flare" means he's crabbing until the flare, at which point he transitions to a slip.
You don't need to be aligned with the runway until the wheels touch. Real tough concepts here.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'm going to blame my reading comprehension skills on the concussion I suffered yesterday. I read it four times and swore it said "...crab just prior to..." not "...crab to just prior to..."
My apologies.
You don't need to be aligned with the runway until the wheels touch. Real tough concepts here.
Crabbing just prior to the flare would disalign you with the runway, and would be a totally f'ed up way to land.
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MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
It's funny, I did the same thing. The first few times I read it my brain skipped over the "to" and I thought he just accidentally said "crab" instead of "decrab". Then I finally read it correctly.
Captain
Final Approach
How about this: I fly on centerline in wings level and coordinated flight until just prior to the flare. Then I transition to a slip, let the upwind wheel touch, fly on the downwind wheel and then lower the nose with increasing aileron deflection while slowing untill the ailerons hit the stops. When the airspeed reads zero I engage steering and start applying brakes, turn off and go to the ramp.
Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet.
And only on the internet can we argue to death about such stupid simple concepts.
ChrisK
En-Route
If my landing yesterday is any indication, proper technique is to fly the plane crabbed on a perfect final and just as I'm rounding out / slipping, a gust of wind catches me and tosses me off the runway and just as I'm putting in power for a go-around my CFII yells "I GOTTA PEE!!!", tells me to pull the power, grabs the yoke, puts it on the runway, and instructs me to pull the plane off at the farthest taxiway and shut it down so he can relieve himself in the bushes. This is followed by a series of "that landing was worth watching" comments from local pilots and some small concern from the flight school owner that we damaged his plane (we didn't).
But maybe that's a different sort of crab.
But maybe that's a different sort of crab.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet.
Note the difference between:
"I crab just prior to flare."
and
"I crab [until] just prior to flare."
The way I orgininally read it (the first statement) was he was either
1) flying a slip all the way down the approach until just before touchdown at which point he "dealigned" and set up a crab for landing or
2) was timing his approach so he drifted over the centerline of the runway, at which point he "dealigned" and set up a crab for landing to keep from over drifting.
Which is why I was like WTF?
That said, I'm going home and getting some rest.
Captain
Final Approach
Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet.
I think missing that 'to' meant he thought I was slipping to the flare and then kicking in a crab at the flare. That would be a hosed up way to unfly a plane.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
This. It's also the reason I avoid using the same words in close proximity to each other while writing. Our brains skip over the duplicate usage.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
I personally crab into the wind and fly coordinated on final, then at about the same time I begin my flare, I use the rudder to point straight down the runway and lower the upwind wing. From this point on, it's just rudder to stay pointed straight, and aileron to hold centerline. During the rollout, I continuesly apply more upwind aileron until I hit the stop. That's the method I was taught, and the only one I've tried. I don't think my passengers would like it if I slipped all the way down final.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Makes more sense to roll out upwind across the runway (reducing your x-wind component a few degrees) than to touch down on the upwind side and skid across, if you're forced to do that.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Heh. If he can do it, you can do it.
Good practice for when a passenger says the same...?
ChrisK
En-Route
If my 8 year old son grabs the yoke and lands the plane after yelling that he has to pee..........Heh. If he can do it, you can do it.
Good practice for when a passenger says the same...?
lr60plt
Pre-takeoff checklist
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gotime242
How on earth can there be this much controversy on xwind landings, lol. After the student pilot phase of holding a wing low all the way down final...there is really only one way to do it. You might have small differences in your technique or timing or whatever...but its all the same.
I also think if you can't hold centerline, you shouldn't be landing on that runway. Centerline is what separates a professional pilot from the rest.
IMHO..... even though im sure everyone will argue with me anyway.
I also think if you can't hold centerline, you shouldn't be landing on that runway. Centerline is what separates a professional pilot from the rest.
IMHO..... even though im sure everyone will argue with me anyway.
Alexb2000
En-Route
When you don't have the rudder authority to hold center line, by definition you will move downwind as soon as you transition to a slip. By lining up on the upwind side you have the whole runway to work with. You're moving laterally in the air (not skidding) BTW.
Unless the runway is a SAC facility I haven't found much help in going across.
ChrisK
En-Route
Alexb2000
En-Route
I know I regret posting.
I must remember... NEVER comment on:
Leaning
Non-towered field procedures
Twins vs. singles
Continental vs. Lycoming
Any thread about brands of airplanes or what is the best airplane
AND Any aspect of flying technique
That pretty much leaves, bitching about fuel prices, and NA topics.
I've got it now.
I must remember... NEVER comment on:
Leaning
Non-towered field procedures
Twins vs. singles
Continental vs. Lycoming
Any thread about brands of airplanes or what is the best airplane
AND Any aspect of flying technique
That pretty much leaves, bitching about fuel prices, and NA topics.
I've got it now.
Captain
Final Approach
Meh, this thread is doing okay. The OP asked for Xwind pointers. He got a bunch. I chimed in with one and there was a misunderstanding that took a mere page to sort out. Heck, there were more posts about beating dead animals than the actual misunderstanding portion.
spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
Crosswind landings are actually quite easy. Align your flightpath with the runway centerline, but ensure that before you touch down that all yer wheels are also parallel to that centerline, and you ain't driftin' none.
Oh, and use your feet and hands a bit, as needed.
Oh, and use your feet and hands a bit, as needed.
Shepherd
Final Approach
Learn and practice all the different techniques. Learn to mix and match, because every landing is different.
A long, long time ago, (less than 8 hours total time) I was doing a landing and I noticed there was a hurricane blowing across the runway. OK it was maybe 3-5 knots. I reminded my instructor that I had never done a crosswind landing, and asked "What should I do?". He looked over at me and gave me the greatest advice of my life.
"Don't fxxk this up."
I've found it applies to just about everything.
He then told me to put the windward wheel on the ground first and steer with the rudder, which also worked.
A long, long time ago, (less than 8 hours total time) I was doing a landing and I noticed there was a hurricane blowing across the runway. OK it was maybe 3-5 knots. I reminded my instructor that I had never done a crosswind landing, and asked "What should I do?". He looked over at me and gave me the greatest advice of my life.
"Don't fxxk this up."
I've found it applies to just about everything.
He then told me to put the windward wheel on the ground first and steer with the rudder, which also worked.
alfadog
Final Approach
Reminds me of what my tailwheel instructor said when we got in the Luscombe for my very first tailwheel lesson. He said "I have no brakes on my side. Don't f&ck up."
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
All I'm saying is, if the wind is really strong, and if there is a big question in your mind about it, then drop a wing and line up with center before the flare at some point, and see if you can hold.
If you cannot hold centerline, then you should not land. Or re-think things.... maybe come in next time a little hotter and no flaps if you were using them. You've got to fly the bird on, not stall it on....
Each landing is almost unique. That's why it boils down to your decisions and your skills.
If you cannot hold centerline, then you should not land. Or re-think things.... maybe come in next time a little hotter and no flaps if you were using them. You've got to fly the bird on, not stall it on....
Each landing is almost unique. That's why it boils down to your decisions and your skills.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
While your advice is certainly safe, it's not all that accurate in terms of a way to determine whether or not the crosswind is too strong to land. For one thing, due to friction (and sometimes nearby structures) the wind decreases and changes direction close to the ground. And in most situations you can go around after putting a wheel or two on the pavement if the wind is too strong. Where it get's dicey, especially in a taildragger is when you get slower and the wind tries to turn the airplane or push it off the runway.
alfadog
Final Approach
I finally got to experience that in the Luscombe. 25G35 and a direct xwind. Great fun and I learned a lot.
Lawreston
En-Route
) I'm wondering if your ground "affect" will have as much effect on the landing as to how not understanding ground "effect" could affect the procedure being discussed in this thread. It's just a thought relative to the terms in use.HR
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
You're splitting hairs, but I hear you.
One can plow on sideways or kick at the last second and stall/force it on, and you may get away with it for a while ....
But there will be some times that you shouldn't do that... you're loading the aircraft too much, and expecting too much out of it. Days where the wind is too strong for a King Air so to speak, and there you are crabbing down to a flare in a Cessna ... it don't make $ents.....
tmyers
En-Route
HR
Wow, did you seriously go back almost 100 posts to correct my I-Pad typing?
Must be a slow day on POA.
Lawreston
En-Route
No; just read the entire thread today, not having seen it before; good one, but was caught off-guard by a new reference re ground proximity.
HR
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree about the hairs, in the grand scheme of things if the crosswind is strong enough that a full slip won't align the plane with the runway it's probably time to head to a different airport. But IME it's not unsafe to postpone that decision until one or more wheels are on pavement if the runway length makes a late go-around a non-event.
I wasn't advocating landing in a crab, just pointing out that conditions often improve close to the ground.
Certainly everyone needs to know their limitations in skill and aircraft performance. And one should definitely tiptoe when nearing them.But there will be some times that you shouldn't do that... you're loading the aircraft too much, and expecting too much out of it. Days where the wind is too strong for a King Air so to speak, and there you are crabbing down to a flare in a Cessna ... it don't make $ents.....
Silvaire
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Silvaire
I don't think there is any point on giving up a half mile out and heading for another airport. At least give it a try, or maybe even a couple because winds shift around and are not always rock steady. The fact is, if you fly enough sooner or later you're going to meet up with a squirrely, gusting crosswind that's going to make your arrival look a bit less than graceful but so long as you can get it down without breaking it it's considered a good one.
signu127
Pre-takeoff checklist
I am not good with all the terminology, acronyms and abbreviations on here yet so I have to ask which is which. When I do X wind landings I like crabbing all the way down and right before I flare I use rudder and apply aileron towards the same side as the X wind. Which method am I using?
signu127
Pre-takeoff checklist
Somebody please explain this quote. He is talking about crabbing it in? If so why will you only get away with it for a while?
this is great, I really love all the opinions and free advice.
thanks
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
The one that lets you handle stronger crosswinds but requires more skill (or luck).
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
Once you figure them out......tell the rest of us. I've been flying since 1977 and still have to take each one as it comes. 
Clark1961
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You get away with crabbing it on until the gear can't take it anymore. If you're lucky, it's found during inspection. If you're unlucky, it's found during landing. YMWV.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
in R.E. Initial video: I couildn't take it anymore. That repetitive continues abuse of the C172.
EVERY time even the few times he touched the upwind wheel first, there was crab. Which isn't so bad if you are low on energy, but ....he wasn't, so the left wheel bounded up, the right then touched with some force resulting in the skid.
The society for the prevention of cruelty to Cessnas should be summoned.
****
The C152 pilot, by contrast with even lighter wingloading had it nailed.
EVERY time even the few times he touched the upwind wheel first, there was crab. Which isn't so bad if you are low on energy, but ....he wasn't, so the left wheel bounded up, the right then touched with some force resulting in the skid.
The society for the prevention of cruelty to Cessnas should be summoned.
****
The C152 pilot, by contrast with even lighter wingloading had it nailed.
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