Crosswind landing pointers?

Captain said:
RoscoeT: Personal troll? Looks about right. Maybe I should feel honored.

EdFred (personal troll?): either you are trolling me or you didn't grasp my words. Maybe read it again? It's exactly how I fly and I'm pretty good at what I do. The 194.2 hours in the last three months is a real number. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about and I'm certain I've mastered cross wind landings.
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Perhaps you don't actually know what a crab is, or your 194.2 hours are all on Flight Simulator.
 
EdFred said:
How can you crab just before the flare, if you are already crabbed a mile out?
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Not sure what your reading and comprehension problem is, but "crab to just prior to the flare" means he's crabbing until the flare, at which point he transitions to a slip.

EdFred said:
Also, if you crab just before the flare, you aren't aligned with the runway...

So again, you don't know what you are talking about.
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You don't need to be aligned with the runway until the wheels touch. Real tough concepts here. :confused:
 
RoscoeT said:
Not sure what your reading and comprehension problem is, but "crab to just prior to the flare" means he's crabbing until the flare, at which point he transitions to a slip.
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I'm going to blame my reading comprehension skills on the concussion I suffered yesterday. I read it four times and swore it said "...crab just prior to..." not "...crab to just prior to..."

My apologies.

You don't need to be aligned with the runway until the wheels touch. Real tough concepts here. :confused:
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Crabbing just prior to the flare would disalign you with the runway, and would be a totally f'ed up way to land.
 
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EdFred said:
I'm going to blame my reading comprehension skills on the concussion I suffered yesterday. I read it four times and swore it said "...crab just prior to..." not "...crab to just prior to..."

My apologies.



Crabbing just prior to the flare would disalign you with the runway, and would be a totally f'ed up way to land.
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It's funny, I did the same thing. The first few times I read it my brain skipped over the "to" and I thought he just accidentally said "crab" instead of "decrab". Then I finally read it correctly.
 
How about this: I fly on centerline in wings level and coordinated flight until just prior to the flare. Then I transition to a slip, let the upwind wheel touch, fly on the downwind wheel and then lower the nose with increasing aileron deflection while slowing untill the ailerons hit the stops. When the airspeed reads zero I engage steering and start applying brakes, turn off and go to the ramp.
 
EdFred said:
Crabbing just prior to the flare would disalign you with the runway, and would be a totally f'ed up way to land.
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Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet. ;) And only on the internet can we argue to death about such stupid simple concepts.
 
If my landing yesterday is any indication, proper technique is to fly the plane crabbed on a perfect final and just as I'm rounding out / slipping, a gust of wind catches me and tosses me off the runway and just as I'm putting in power for a go-around my CFII yells "I GOTTA PEE!!!", tells me to pull the power, grabs the yoke, puts it on the runway, and instructs me to pull the plane off at the farthest taxiway and shut it down so he can relieve himself in the bushes. This is followed by a series of "that landing was worth watching" comments from local pilots and some small concern from the flight school owner that we damaged his plane (we didn't).

But maybe that's a different sort of crab.
 
RoscoeT said:
Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet. ;) And only on the internet can we argue to death about such stupid simple concepts.
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Note the difference between:

"I crab just prior to flare."

and

"I crab [until] just prior to flare."

The way I orgininally read it (the first statement) was he was either
1) flying a slip all the way down the approach until just before touchdown at which point he "dealigned" and set up a crab for landing or
2) was timing his approach so he drifted over the centerline of the runway, at which point he "dealigned" and set up a crab for landing to keep from over drifting.

Which is why I was like WTF?

That said, I'm going home and getting some rest.
 
RoscoeT said:
Still don't get your beef. When I crab down final into the flare, it doesn't "disalign" me from the runway...I'm ALREADY misaligned. That's the whole point of transitioning to the slip DURING the flare....BEFORE the wheels touch...to ALIGN the airplane. I usually do all this within about a foot of the runway. Over 3,500 tailwheel landings and haven't ground looped one yet. Still confused by your statements. I think you need to get some rest before continuing to argue on the internet. ;) And only on the internet can we argue to death about such stupid simple concepts.
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I think missing that 'to' meant he thought I was slipping to the flare and then kicking in a crab at the flare. That would be a hosed up way to unfly a plane.
 
Captain said:
I think missing that 'to' meant he thought I was slipping to the flare and then kicking in a crab at the flare. That would be a hosed up way to unfly a plane.
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This. It's also the reason I avoid using the same words in close proximity to each other while writing. Our brains skip over the duplicate usage.
 
I personally crab into the wind and fly coordinated on final, then at about the same time I begin my flare, I use the rudder to point straight down the runway and lower the upwind wing. From this point on, it's just rudder to stay pointed straight, and aileron to hold centerline. During the rollout, I continuesly apply more upwind aileron until I hit the stop. That's the method I was taught, and the only one I've tried. I don't think my passengers would like it if I slipped all the way down final.
 
So before I didn't land my Sim right and now I don't write right?

I'll just pretend that was an apology and say "no problem".
 
Alexb2000 said:
If I find I can't hold center line, I can usually still land. Bring it in slow in a crab, line up on the upwind edge of the runway, transition to a slip about a foot off the ground with just enough flair to touch the mains first (flat attitude), simultaneously give it a blast of power to increase rudder authority, stick it vs. float it, and as soon as a wheel touches raise flaps and start braking.

If I give up some lateral runway in the transition, OK, I planed for it.

Non standard but could be useful in some situations.
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Makes more sense to roll out upwind across the runway (reducing your x-wind component a few degrees) than to touch down on the upwind side and skid across, if you're forced to do that.
 
ChrisK said:
If my landing yesterday is any indication, proper technique is to fly the plane crabbed on a perfect final and just as I'm rounding out / slipping, a gust of wind catches me and tosses me off the runway and just as I'm putting in power for a go-around my CFII yells "I GOTTA PEE!!!", tells me to pull the power, grabs the yoke, puts it on the runway, and instructs me to pull the plane off at the farthest taxiway and shut it down so he can relieve himself in the bushes. This is followed by a series of "that landing was worth watching" comments from local pilots and some small concern from the flight school owner that we damaged his plane (we didn't).

But maybe that's a different sort of crab.
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Heh. If he can do it, you can do it. ;)

Good practice for when a passenger says the same...? ;)
 
How on earth can there be this much controversy on xwind landings, lol. After the student pilot phase of holding a wing low all the way down final...there is really only one way to do it. You might have small differences in your technique or timing or whatever...but its all the same.

I also think if you can't hold centerline, you shouldn't be landing on that runway. Centerline is what separates a professional pilot from the rest.
IMHO..... even though im sure everyone will argue with me anyway.
 
denverpilot said:
Makes more sense to roll out upwind across the runway (reducing your x-wind component a few degrees) than to touch down on the upwind side and skid across, if you're forced to do that.
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When you don't have the rudder authority to hold center line, by definition you will move downwind as soon as you transition to a slip. By lining up on the upwind side you have the whole runway to work with. You're moving laterally in the air (not skidding) BTW.

Unless the runway is a SAC facility I haven't found much help in going across.
 
I'm looking for the "Beaten to Death" Emoticon but can't find it. :rolleyes:
 
icon_deadhorse.gif
 
I know I regret posting.

I must remember... NEVER comment on:

Leaning
Non-towered field procedures
Twins vs. singles
Continental vs. Lycoming
Any thread about brands of airplanes or what is the best airplane
AND Any aspect of flying technique

That pretty much leaves, bitching about fuel prices, and NA topics.

I've got it now.
 
Meh, this thread is doing okay. The OP asked for Xwind pointers. He got a bunch. I chimed in with one and there was a misunderstanding that took a mere page to sort out. Heck, there were more posts about beating dead animals than the actual misunderstanding portion.
 
Crosswind landings are actually quite easy. Align your flightpath with the runway centerline, but ensure that before you touch down that all yer wheels are also parallel to that centerline, and you ain't driftin' none.

Oh, and use your feet and hands a bit, as needed.
 
Learn and practice all the different techniques. Learn to mix and match, because every landing is different.
A long, long time ago, (less than 8 hours total time) I was doing a landing and I noticed there was a hurricane blowing across the runway. OK it was maybe 3-5 knots. I reminded my instructor that I had never done a crosswind landing, and asked "What should I do?". He looked over at me and gave me the greatest advice of my life.
"Don't fxxk this up."
I've found it applies to just about everything.
He then told me to put the windward wheel on the ground first and steer with the rudder, which also worked.
 
Shepherd said:
Learn and practice all the different techniques. Learn to mix and match, because every landing is different.
A long, long time ago, (less than 8 hours total time) I was doing a landing and I noticed there was a hurricane blowing across the runway. OK it was maybe 3-5 knots. I reminded my instructor that I had never done a crosswind landing, and asked "What should I do?". He looked over at me and gave me the greatest advice of my life.
"Don't fxxk this up."
I've found it applies to just about everything.
He then told me to put the windward wheel on the ground first and steer with the rudder, which also worked.
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Reminds me of what my tailwheel instructor said when we got in the Luscombe for my very first tailwheel lesson. He said "I have no brakes on my side. Don't f&ck up."
 
All I'm saying is, if the wind is really strong, and if there is a big question in your mind about it, then drop a wing and line up with center before the flare at some point, and see if you can hold.

If you cannot hold centerline, then you should not land. Or re-think things.... maybe come in next time a little hotter and no flaps if you were using them. You've got to fly the bird on, not stall it on....

Each landing is almost unique. That's why it boils down to your decisions and your skills.
 
txflyer said:
All I'm saying is, if the wind is really strong, and if there is a big question in your mind about it, then drop a wing and line up with center before the flare at some point, and see if you can hold.

If you cannot hold centerline, then you should not land. Or re-think things.... maybe come in next time a little hotter and no flaps if you were using them. You've got to fly the bird on, not stall it on....

Each landing is almost unique. That's why it boils down to your decisions and your skills.
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While your advice is certainly safe, it's not all that accurate in terms of a way to determine whether or not the crosswind is too strong to land. For one thing, due to friction (and sometimes nearby structures) the wind decreases and changes direction close to the ground. And in most situations you can go around after putting a wheel or two on the pavement if the wind is too strong. Where it get's dicey, especially in a taildragger is when you get slower and the wind tries to turn the airplane or push it off the runway.
 
gismo said:
While your advice is certainly safe, it's not all that accurate in terms of a way to determine whether or not the crosswind is too strong to land. For one thing, due to friction (and sometimes nearby structures) the wind decreases and changes direction close to the ground. And in most situations you can go around after putting a wheel or two on the pavement if the wind is too strong. Where it get's dicey, especially in a taildragger is when you get slower and the wind tries to turn the airplane or push it off the runway.
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I finally got to experience that in the Luscombe. 25G35 and a direct xwind. Great fun and I learned a lot.
 
tmyers said:
I think you will find that if you get your stuff together by 1/4 mile final the landing will be pretty much a non event. The only thing that can spoil that is gusts, but even they will settle down once you are in ground affect. Stay fluid and act according to what you see and feel. Don't freeze up, you will get it. I doubt there are many that didn't dread X-wind landing at some point in their training.
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:o) I'm wondering if your ground "affect" will have as much effect on the landing as to how not understanding ground "effect" could affect the procedure being discussed in this thread. It's just a thought relative to the terms in use.

HR
 
gismo said:
While your advice is certainly safe, it's not all that accurate in terms of a way to determine whether or not the crosswind is too strong to land. For one thing, due to friction (and sometimes nearby structures) the wind decreases and changes direction close to the ground. And in most situations you can go around after putting a wheel or two on the pavement if the wind is too strong. Where it get's dicey, especially in a taildragger is when you get slower and the wind tries to turn the airplane or push it off the runway.
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You're splitting hairs, but I hear you.

One can plow on sideways or kick at the last second and stall/force it on, and you may get away with it for a while ....

But there will be some times that you shouldn't do that... you're loading the aircraft too much, and expecting too much out of it. Days where the wind is too strong for a King Air so to speak, and there you are crabbing down to a flare in a Cessna ... it don't make $ents..... :goofy:
 
Lawreston said:
:o) I'm wondering if your ground "affect" will have as much effect on the landing as to how not understanding ground "effect" could affect the procedure being discussed in this thread. It's just a thought relative to the terms in use.

HR
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Wow, did you seriously go back almost 100 posts to correct my I-Pad typing?

Must be a slow day on POA.
 
tmyers said:
Wow, did you seriously go back almost 100 posts to correct my I-Pad typing?

Must be a slow day on POA.
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No; just read the entire thread today, not having seen it before; good one, but was caught off-guard by a new reference re ground proximity.

HR
 
txflyer said:
You're splitting hairs, but I hear you.
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I agree about the hairs, in the grand scheme of things if the crosswind is strong enough that a full slip won't align the plane with the runway it's probably time to head to a different airport. But IME it's not unsafe to postpone that decision until one or more wheels are on pavement if the runway length makes a late go-around a non-event.

One can plow on sideways or kick at the last second and stall/force it on, and you may get away with it for a while ....
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I wasn't advocating landing in a crab, just pointing out that conditions often improve close to the ground.

But there will be some times that you shouldn't do that... you're loading the aircraft too much, and expecting too much out of it. Days where the wind is too strong for a King Air so to speak, and there you are crabbing down to a flare in a Cessna ... it don't make $ents..... :goofy:
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Certainly everyone needs to know their limitations in skill and aircraft performance. And one should definitely tiptoe when nearing them.
 
I don't think there is any point on giving up a half mile out and heading for another airport. At least give it a try, or maybe even a couple because winds shift around and are not always rock steady. The fact is, if you fly enough sooner or later you're going to meet up with a squirrely, gusting crosswind that's going to make your arrival look a bit less than graceful but so long as you can get it down without breaking it it's considered a good one.
 
zaitcev said:
I had the same problem and reading the FAA manual H-8083-3A helped me. It's our tax dollars at work. I also switched from the kick-out method to the wing low method, because it does not require as much exactly correct control in just the right time.
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I am not good with all the terminology, acronyms and abbreviations on here yet so I have to ask which is which. When I do X wind landings I like crabbing all the way down and right before I flare I use rudder and apply aileron towards the same side as the X wind. Which method am I using?
 
txflyer said:
One can plow on sideways or kick at the last second and stall/force it on, and you may get away with it for a while ....
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Somebody please explain this quote. He is talking about crabbing it in? If so why will you only get away with it for a while?

this is great, I really love all the opinions and free advice.

thanks
 
signu127 said:
I am not good with all the terminology, acronyms and abbreviations on here yet so I have to ask which is which. When I do X wind landings I like crabbing all the way down and right before I flare I use rudder and apply aileron towards the same side as the X wind. Which method am I using?
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The one that lets you handle stronger crosswinds but requires more skill (or luck).:D
 
signu127 said:
If so why will you only get away with it for a while?
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You get away with crabbing it on until the gear can't take it anymore. If you're lucky, it's found during inspection. If you're unlucky, it's found during landing. YMWV.
 
in R.E. Initial video: I couildn't take it anymore. That repetitive continues abuse of the C172.

EVERY time even the few times he touched the upwind wheel first, there was crab. Which isn't so bad if you are low on energy, but ....he wasn't, so the left wheel bounded up, the right then touched with some force resulting in the skid.

The society for the prevention of cruelty to Cessnas should be summoned.

****

The C152 pilot, by contrast with even lighter wingloading had it nailed.
 
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