Crossing Mid-Field at Pattern Altitude

Once had a windsock that was off it's frame and on the ground, took a low pass to see that (Dell City TX).
Not sure you needed to know where the missing sock had gone, but I'm sure you had other cues as to current wind direction.

Have also had "light spots" start moving on the runways at both Silver City NM fields (coyotes) when on final. Had a tire on the runway at Horizon TX (not in TDZ, but shortly after) am guessing as they use them to hold the roofs of the trailer on nearby in high wind. I low pass slow fields now for debris, animals, etc.
But I'm sure you did that via the normal traffic pattern after entering it at TPA, not cutting across the field at low altitude.
 
The appeal board didn't accept all the judge's findings, specifically that 5-6 miles is ok.

dtuuri

They didn't reject it either. In other words, it's not that they didn't accept the judge's assertion that 5-6 miles would be OK, but rather that they didn't do anything with it one way or the other because it wasn't relevant to the facts on appeal.

The appellant tried to get the board to overturn the factual finding that he was only 1-2 miles away when he made that nasty right turn onto the straight-in approach for a left pattern runway, and they refused to do that, so with regard to the lower judge's remarks that 5-6 miles is OK, the footnote says, "We need not address that question, as it goes beyond the facts in this case."

Some of this thread drift is because I'm certain that a tear drop to the 45 entry leg, done 2 miles after crossing, is perfectly OK, because "It's what I was taught!" :rofl: Sorry...
 
They didn't reject it either. In other words, it's not that they didn't accept the judge's assertion that 5-6 miles would be OK, but rather that they didn't do anything with it one way or the other because it wasn't relevant to the facts on appeal.

Does that fact limit the precedent value of the judge's 5-6 mile assertion?
 
Does that fact limit the precedent value of the judge's 5-6 mile assertion?
The "5 - 6 mile" discussion would likely be regarded as "dictum":
dictum n. Latin for "remark", a comment by a judge in a decision or ruling which is not required to reach the decision, but may state a related legal principle as the judge understands it. While it may be cited in legal argument, it does not have the full force of a precedent (previous court decisions or interpretations) since the comment was not part of the legal basis for judgment. The standard counter argument is: "it is only dictum (or dicta)."
 
Unless you consider Boardman to have been in the traffic pattern, it has the same relevance as "The left turn rule is for the traffic pattern..."

Well personally, from my reading of it, he was in the pattern because he called it a right base on the radio.

Maybe I'm misreading the facts. :dunno:
 
This is the sort of thinking that has lead you to your incorrect conclusions. The left turn rule means downwind to base and base to final as well as upwind to crosswind and crosswind to downwind- that's ALL it means.

No, it means all turns.
 
No, it means all turns.

Not as interpreted by the FAA.

They publicly and unequivocally interpret the rule to permit a 45-degree right turn from the entry leg onto the downwind leg.

They admittedly use some gymnastic logic about how the rule itself contemplates right turns (for right traffic, duh), but they "have long considered that this rule does not prohibit maneuvers necessary to safely enter the flow of traffic at the airport."
 
Not as interpreted by the FAA.

They publicly and unequivocally interpret the rule to permit a 45-degree right turn from the entry leg onto the downwind leg.

They admittedly use some gymnastic logic about how the rule itself contemplates right turns (for right traffic, duh), but they "have long considered that this rule does not prohibit maneuvers necessary to safely enter the flow of traffic at the airport."

The FAA interpretation is incorrect.
 
Well personally, from my reading of it, he was in the pattern because he called it a right base on the radio.
Calling it on the radio doesn't make it so. And if you haven't also read the Rivard and Dibble cases (regrettably not currently available on the NTSB site), you don't have the full story.
Even were we to find that respondent made the turn for landing approach 4 miles before the runway, as alleged, this fact would be unavailing in light of our decision in Administrator v. Rivard, NTSB Order EA-3413 (1991), recon. den’d, EA-3484 (1992), discussed infra.
However, since "the law judge determined that a turn in anticipation of a straight-in approach, made at 5 or 6 miles out, would not be considered a violation", and the NTSB did not overturn that, one has precedent to argue that if you're in a 737, if you were outside 6 miles when you get set up on final, you can call it a straight-in and the FAA would have to overturn that precedent to nail you.
It is also relevant in this case to keep in mind that turning into an approach requires a certain amount of time, varying with the aircraft type, to stabilize the aircraft in preparation for landing. See infra.
So, in a Cub, 2 miles might be enough.
 
The FAA interpretation is incorrect.
You personally may think the FAA interpretation is incorrect, but by law, the FAA interpretation is not incorrect until the US Court of Appeals says it is incorrect, and I don't think you sit on that bench.
 
No, it means all turns.

So how do you enter a left downwind without making a turn to the right? How can a 45 degree entry possibly be legal according to your interpretation of the rule? :dunno:
 
You personally may think the FAA interpretation is incorrect, but by law, the FAA interpretation is not incorrect until the US Court of Appeals says it is incorrect, and I don't think you sit on that bench.

The FAA interpretation is incorrect whenever it is not consistent with the language of the regulation.
 
So how do you enter a left downwind without making a turn to the right?

It varies. Sometimes a left turn from crosswind, sometimes my inbound course is an extended downwind, sometime I skip the downwind leg, sometimes I make a right turn.

How can a 45 degree entry possibly be legal according to your interpretation of the rule? :dunno:

As the regulation is written the 45 degree entry to downwind is illegal. There's no way around that, but there's no cause for concern as the FAA does not enforce it as it is written.
 
As the regulation is written the 45 degree entry to downwind is illegal. There's no way around that, but there's no cause for concern as the FAA does not enforce it as it is written.

Because elsewhere the FAA actually suggests the 45 entry to the Traffic Pattern, which you obviously know since you know who publishes the AIM.
 
...As the regulation is written the 45 degree entry to downwind is illegal. There's no way around that, but there's no cause for concern as the FAA does not enforce it as it is written.

ooh-kay...so what you are saying is that the regulation does not mean what the person or agency that wrote it says it means and despite your insistence that it prohibits all turns to the right you still do them none the less. :rolleyes:
 
I have read several of these threads debating the midfield crosswind. In my opinion it is the responsibility of every PIC to evaluate the traffic and integrate themselves into the flow without causing a conflict. I tend to question the legitimacy of any opinion that claims the midfield cross wind is holy and designed by some higher power or evil and should never be done because its just dangerous. Fact is there are times its the safest most efficient way to enter the pattern and there are other times it is the most dangerous inefficient way to enter the pattern. There are some absolutes in aviation. Being on one side of this debate is not one of them, in my opinion.
 
ooh-kay...so what you are saying is that the regulation does not mean what the person or agency that wrote it says it means and despite your insistence that it prohibits all turns to the right you still do them none the less. :rolleyes:

Affirmative.
 
If that was the case "traffic pattern" would appear in the regulation.

Turns "needed" to land don't appear in the regulation either, but that appears to be your intepretation.

Perhaps, instead of contending that turning is maneuvering and that the first turn "needed" to put the airplane on the runway starts the "approaching to land," one might reasonably contend that approaching to land is flying the traffic pattern? :dunno:
 
Turns "needed" to land don't appear in the regulation either, but that appears to be your intepretation.

Perhaps, instead of contending that turning is maneuvering and that the first turn "needed" to put the airplane on the runway starts the "approaching to land," one might reasonably contend that approaching to land is flying the traffic pattern? :dunno:

Is turning not maneuvering?
 
You personally may think the FAA interpretation is incorrect, but by law, the FAA interpretation is not incorrect until the US Court of Appeals says it is incorrect, and I don't think you sit on that bench.

You're mistaken. It's their opinion. Your lawyer's opinion has equal validity.
 
I would think that the entity that wrote the statement would be the final authority on what it means. Anything beyond that is simply an argument that they didn't word it in a manner that the complainant could understand or that caused misinterpretation. Regardless, if the author clarifies that it means in the pattern what is the point of continuing the argument other than for arguments sake? :dunno:

Language itself is imperfect but in the case of this argument that all turns to the right are prohibited I think there is a fundamental lack of common sense to it.
 
Is turning not maneuvering?

Better question. Are turns "needed" to land in the regulation?

(And, to clarify, I think it's a rational interpretation if it had some more meat on it. I am simply puzzled by your apparent insistence that it is the only possible interpretation)
 
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You're mistaken. It's their opinion. Your lawyer's opinion has equal validity.
That's not true. The courts give special deference to a Federal agency's interpretation of its own regulations. Yes, the PBOR removed the mandatory deference previously incorporated in the Federal Aviation Act, but it did nothing to change the normal deference covered known as "Chevron deference". As such, unless one convinces the court that the FAA's interpretation is "unreasonable", the court will accept the FAA's interpretation over anything your lawyer proposes, and that is a very low threshold for the FAA to achieve.
 
I would think that the entity that wrote the statement would be the final authority on what it means.
The US Supreme Court will always be the final authority on the law in this country (see Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803)), but they have never accepted an FAA enforcement action case against a pilot, so for all practical purposes, the US Court of Appeals is the effective final authority. However, it's very hard to get the court to overrule a Federal agency's interpretation of its own regulations. As discussed here,...
Chevron deference is a principle of administrative law requiring courts to defer to interpretations of statutes made by those government agencies charged with enforcing them, unless such interpretations are unreasonable. The principle is named for the 1984 Supreme Court case Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., which involved a dispute over the Environmental Protection Agency’s interpretation of a provision of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1977. Under Chevron, even if a court finds that another interpretation is reasonable, or even better than the agency’s interpretation, it must defer to the agency’s reasonable interpretation.

Reasonableness in part turns on whether the statute unambiguously addresses the issue. If it does, then the unambiguous meaning controls. If the statute is ambiguous, then the court asks whether the agency’s interpretation of the ambiguous provision is based on a permissible construction of the statute. A permissible construction is one that is not “arbitrary, capricious, or manifestly contrary to the statute.” In other words, it is a very low threshold of deference.
As a result, the FAA pretty much does get to decide what their own regulations mean even if in theory the final authority lies with the courts. Yes, it's theoretically possible to have their interpretation overturned, but that's an expensive and time-consuming process with (based on legal history) little chance of success.
 
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... Yes, it's theoretically possible to have their interpretation overturned...

How can you overturn the "interpretation" of the original author? Maybe they could force it to be rewritten for clarification or to minimize misinterpretation but as you can see from this thread there are people who are going to find fault and argue for no other real purpose other than to argue.
 
How can you overturn the "interpretation" of the original author?
First, it's not the original author making these interpretations, it's a staff attorney in the Office of the Chief Counsel. The original author is a pilot/flight instructor type in Flight Standards, not a lawyer, and s/he is not authorized to make legal interpretations of the regulations. Technically, the power to interpret those regulations lies with the Administrator, but in the FAA, the Administrator has delegated that authority to the Chief Counsel.

When a request for an interpretation comes into the Chief Counsel's office, the attorney to whom that task is assigned will consult with the people in Flight Standards (possibly including the original author if s/he still works in that slot), but at the end of the day, the attorneys make the interpretation, not the original author. In some cases, what the regulation actually says legally is not what the original author intended it to say, and in those cases, the attorneys write the interpretation based on law, not on intention -- this has bitten Flight Standards on several occasions. Because of this, Flight Standards is now working much more closely with the Chief Counsel's office during the rulemaking process so they don't run into such problems. But at the end of the day, once the regulation is written, the lawyers get the final say within the FAA on what it actually says.

However, as I said above, someone can challenge that Chief Counsel interpretation in Federal court, and the court can overrule the FAA's official interpretation of the regulation (i.e., the one that came from the Chief Counsel). If it gets to that point, as I also said, the Chevron deference doctrine creates a very high barrier to having it thus overturned, but it is theoretically possible even if I can't think of any FAA regulation cases where it's happened (maybe Mark knows).

Of course, up until a couple of years ago, the Federal Aviation passed by Congress required deference to the FAA's interpretation of its own regulations unless that interpretation was "arbitrary, capricious, or otherwise not according to law" -- a higher barrier than the Chevron deference, and one which is virtually insurmountable, as seen in the famous Merrell case. For that reason, it's not surprising that it's hard to find any cases of the courts overturning an FAA interpretation of its own regulations. The recent PBOR legislation deleted that required deference, but I know of no cases of FAA regulation interpretation which have reached the US Court of Appeals since that law became effective, so there's no way to know for sure what impact it might have on any future FAA regulation interpretation questions.

Maybe they could force it to be rewritten for clarification or to minimize misinterpretation...
Neither the Chief Counsel nor the courts can "force it to be rewritten", only tell Flight Standards what the regulation legally says as written, and let then Flight Standards decide where to go from there. Sometimes they live with it, sometimes they start the rulemaking process to change the regulation. In some cases, where it's just an administrative/typographic sort of error, that can be done quickly. In others, it takes a couple of years to do the full ARC/NPRM/Comment/FR process.

...but as you can see from this thread there are people who are going to find fault and argue for no other real purpose other than to argue.
You got that right.
 
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Holy f***ing sh** Levy. I just went into your post history to try to find a post from yesterday or the day before and after scrolling through your 31 posts today and 36 yesterday I gave up.

Do you have a life? :rolleyes:
 
Issue 1. Crossing midfield to enter downwind at pattern altitude is 100% okay. Been doing it for 20 years, hope to do it for another 20.

Issue 2. Cutting someone off who is already on downwind is NOT okay.

You've got two different issues here.

spot on.
 
Wow. What started as a rant about being cut off in the pattern degrades to an argument about the legal authority of courts over the FAA.

And someone said the red board was bad...
 
I think we can all agree if that you don't do it exactly like I do it (because that's what my CFI taught me to do), you are doing it wrong!




At least, that's what I think drives this debate.
 
Enter 200 knots at 50 feet AGL towards runway 35, fly length of runway, perform a half Cuban 8, land runway 17, spike Red Bull can on the ground.


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