Crossing Mid-Field at Pattern Altitude
- Thread starter Fearless Tower
- Start date
bflynn
Final Approach
I suspect it's because it's legal to enter the pattern any way that can be done safely and the AIM is only a recommendation. Just because you're in the pattern doesn't mean I have to fly over the field and spend an extra 5-10 minutes landing.
In addition, a tear drop entry means I have to raise my wing and block my view of any unannounced 45 diagonal entries. If that had been me, I would have been making a blind right descending turn right in front of you because I couldn't see you.
In addition, a tear drop entry means I have to raise my wing and block my view of any unannounced 45 diagonal entries. If that had been me, I would have been making a blind right descending turn right in front of you because I couldn't see you.
Last edited:
I can be at pattern altitude by the time I reach the opposite numbers on a 5000' strip, so crosswind over the numbers doesn't make any sense to me.
I thought that's what mid field crossovers were for. To avoid arriving and departing traffic.
If you cut in front of someone, well, then you're just a butthead.
Thats a good point, as far as i know, the reason some choose to enter crosswind over the numbers is so aircraft at the other end of the runway, say in the run-up area, can see the aircraft vs. if they fly over mid field, they may be blocked by the roof of the aircraft in the run up area. Not sure how valid this is, just an idea for SA.
Last edited:
dtuuri
Final Approach
Here is where you can read all about it....
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/SA08_Nontowered_Airport_Ops.pdf
Note the FAA Version... Advisory Circular 90-66A also references the above AOPA Document (5g)
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/joh...d_Programs/CFI/Traffic Patterns AC 90-66A.pdf
The "alternate" entry in Figure 10 of the first link is utterly not related to anything the FAA recommends in the next link. So, you're misleading people by implying the AC authors have vetted all statements in all 15 documents in the list of "Related Reading Material". Please stop.
dtuuri
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
...because "your method" has the potential to conflict with traffic. Right out of the AOPA document:
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Because he cut in front of me without ever seeing me. He stated on the radio he would follow me, so even though I was pointed right at him with the landing light on, he obviously didn't see me.
Considering I am an ABS member, I don't particularly dislike Bonanza drivers.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Why doesn't it make sense? You're either going to leave the pattern or turn crosswind, so any plane on the upwind can either turn crosswind behind you or follow you onto it. (I'd not go right over the numbers, but slightly beyond the end.)
Nope. It's all about under-appreciation for the inherent limits of "see and avoid".
Or you didn't see them.If you cut in front of someone, well, then you're just a butthead.
dtuuri
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,268
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
You have to read further along in that document. They go on to say 1,000 ft is recomended and 500 ft is the absolute minimum. So I still am within their recommended procedure. Odds of a turbine doing closed traffic would be slim. Still better than being at pattern altitude.
txflyer
En-Route
- Joined
- May 3, 2013
- Messages
- 4,509
- Location
- Wild Blue Yonder
- Display Name
Display name:
Fly it like you STOL it ♦
So I'm taking off and following centerline to the end of the runway like a good boy and just about the time I'm ready to turn out, here you come crosswind right over the numbers.
You can't visualize that?
If you crossover mid-field, there's no way I can hit you. Or you hit me ... I can be ~1000' AGL by the end of 5000' strip in the skywagon without even trying very hard. And what about the zoom climb guys?
MyassisDragon
Line Up and Wait
Is it me or does this subject come up every few months? I always read it and cannot come up with a good definitive right or wrong. But I can pull from my own experience an say every pattern entry doesn't fit the chart or discussions verbatim . So many factors come into play like noise abatement direction of flight students in pattern other airports in vicinity ect..
9 times out of 10 when I approach an uncontrolled airport VFR with traffic it's never a problem to work things out on the radio regardless if one of us is crossing midfield..... The 1 time out of 10 things seem to be a problem is when the other traffic is Not using or doesn't have a radio.....makes no sense to me but I guess it's legal....there is enough risks involved when flying with others why increase it for me and my family
.....
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
9 times out of 10 when I approach an uncontrolled airport VFR with traffic it's never a problem to work things out on the radio regardless if one of us is crossing midfield..... The 1 time out of 10 things seem to be a problem is when the other traffic is Not using or doesn't have a radio.....makes no sense to me but I guess it's legal....there is enough risks involved when flying with others why increase it for me and my family
.....
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,268
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Pattern entry is always a hot topic on POA. It always comes up every few months. While I'm understanding of different entries and I don't believe in any FAA regulatory intervention, I understand the OP's concern. The guy should have chosen a different entry instead of cutting him off and lying in the process.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
Issue 1. Crossing midfield to enter downwind at pattern altitude is 100% okay. Been doing it for 20 years, hope to do it for another 20.
Issue 2. Cutting someone off who is already on downwind is NOT okay.
You've got two different issues here.
Issue 2. Cutting someone off who is already on downwind is NOT okay.
You've got two different issues here.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I've already seen you on the runway, and can adjust accordingly.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
If I'm on downwind and notice I'm actually landing the "wrong" direction, I turn my downwind to an upwind, and make 4 more 90 degree turns. If the wind is less than 10kts of tailwind I'm not landing the 'wrong' direction.
sarangan
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,897
- Display Name
Display name:
Andrew, CFI-I
Mid-field entry is nonstandard, but not illegal. FAR says all turns in the traffic pattern should be made to the left. Technically a mid-field turn complies with that, but a 45-deg entry does not. Go figure. Whatever you do, safety is paramount, so don't get into an argument with the other pilot.
I was once chewed out for making a straight-in. We both had each other in sight and in radio contact, so there was nothing unsafe or illegal. But the other pilot felt the need to admonish me in front of my student after landing. He was also a CFI and has been flying there for a long time, so he must have felt like he was in charge of the airport. There are always these self-appointed traffic cops to watch out for.
I was once chewed out for making a straight-in. We both had each other in sight and in radio contact, so there was nothing unsafe or illegal. But the other pilot felt the need to admonish me in front of my student after landing. He was also a CFI and has been flying there for a long time, so he must have felt like he was in charge of the airport. There are always these self-appointed traffic cops to watch out for.
JHW
En-Route
Why link the two? Doing so smacks of a crusade. He shouldn't have cut anyone off in the pattern. Period. Where he entered from is immaterial.
I agree, the real problem here that the OP is suggesting, is that crossing mid-field downwind is not necessarily the problem, its the fact the Bo driver cut him off unnanounced, which is a problem. Like i say, i feel like you should enter the pattern as appropriately to avoid a traffic conflict, not always as a set way everytime as the standard "45 downwind". Then again it all depends on the situation.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Technically, the FAA clarified that so, no, technically the 45 entry isn't non-compliant.
I'd think a CFI would know that.
Last edited:
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
That's when you say "I've seen you land, and I didn't want to have to worry about debris on the runway, that's why I came straight in."
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Double technically the FARs don't say, "except for the 45 from downwind."
And triple technically...Here's the letter...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...011/gossman - (2011) legal interpretation.pdf
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I know. It's also in an AC, and is in the AIM. But it was that idiot MacPherson that wrote it. ***** doesn't even know what "for hire" means.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,268
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Ok, I'll agree the entry was'nt the problem. The cutting off Of the OP was. Could've happened on a 45.
I also think being cut off varies depending on who you talk to. While I don't doubt the OP was cut off, there are plenty of pilots out there who claim of being cut off when in reality it wasn't even close. Pilots exaggerate and in some cases, pilots complain just because they like to complain.
Dan Thomas
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 10,818
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Thomas
That Canadian SOP applies to both MF and ATF airports. In other words, all uncontrolled aerodromes. Go to
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp14371-menu-3092.htm
and look up RAC 4.5.2.
The reason for crossing at pattern altitude is to make spotting other pattern traffic much easier, since they're on or just above the horizon at your altitude.
Dan (former Canadian flight instructor)
dtuuri
Final Approach
Only in my wildest imagination. If I'm on an upwind I'll see you better (broad-sided not head on). I'll also see the tops of your wings while you're climbing, lots of surface area there too. I'm also probably out-running you, if not I'll follow you or just go straight until there's no conflict and return for the usual entry leg.
If that were true, the OP wouldn't have begun this thread.
dtuuri
dtuuri
Final Approach
Dan, my statement is consistent with RAC 4.5.2. "Figure 4.1" is the figure incorrectly referenced above and shows the 45° entry. It is not allowed except at MF aerodromes (mandatory frequency) with advisory information (my highlighting):
(v) Aerodromes not within an MF area: Where no MF
procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the
traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively,
once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that
there will be no conflict with other traffic entering
the circuit or traffic established within the circuit,
the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind
leg (Figure 4.6).
(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory
information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit
pattern straight-in or at 45˚ to the downwind leg or
straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1). Pilots
should be alert for other VFR traffic entering the
circuit at these positions and for IFR straight-in or
circling approaches.
(vii) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory
information is not available: Aircraft should approach
the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively,
once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that
there will be no conflict with other traffic entering
the circuit or traffic established within the circuit,
the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg
(Figure 4.6).
Of course, here the 45° is standard and the mid-field cross not compatible with a non mandatory frequency airport (tower).procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the
traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively,
once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that
there will be no conflict with other traffic entering
the circuit or traffic established within the circuit,
the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind
leg (Figure 4.6).
(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory
information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit
pattern straight-in or at 45˚ to the downwind leg or
straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1). Pilots
should be alert for other VFR traffic entering the
circuit at these positions and for IFR straight-in or
circling approaches.
(vii) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory
information is not available: Aircraft should approach
the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively,
once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that
there will be no conflict with other traffic entering
the circuit or traffic established within the circuit,
the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg
(Figure 4.6).
dtuuri
Last edited:
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
Sounds like this is the core issue- the Bo driver said one thing and did another. My bet: the Bo driver didn't pull back on throttle and was blasting along, found himself (assuming him) and just completed the landing.
Likely just a head up your *** moment and is embarrassed - or is a jerk....
But everyone I know does this pattern entry when approaching from the other side of the airport - although I must admit I try to fly over the numbers on the far end as there could be someone with the same idea coming in from the other side of the airport
txflyer
En-Route
- Joined
- May 3, 2013
- Messages
- 4,509
- Location
- Wild Blue Yonder
- Display Name
Display name:
Fly it like you STOL it ♦
That is a lot of wild following and turning where if you had just crossed mid field, you would be crossing right over me as my wheels left the pavement 1000' directly straight down below you. You don't have to see me. I'm no factor to you.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
It's a bad way to enter the pattern when other planes are already there because it can leave someone with nowhere else to go, but it's not illegal and folks are going to do it, so keep your ears open on the radio and your eyes outside the plane checking all directions, not just the expected ones.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Maybe you're not a "factor", but I don't want to "factor out" the OP on the entry leg or on downwind, closing fast, presenting with a small frontal area on the far side of my windshield post. That's all I'm saying in this thread. Got to get up early for the adult session at the roller skating rink.That is a lot of wild following and turning where if you had just crossed mid field, you would be crossing right over me as my wheels left the pavement 1000' directly straight down below you. You don't have to see me. I'm no factor to you.
There, they have 'nuff sense not to allow cutting across the pattern. Can't stop quick enough to avoid when you're flea-hoppin' on the downwind. dtuuri
Last edited:
kyleb
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,564
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
It appears the Bo driver lost SA and failed to identify other aircraft in (or joining) the pattern. That has nothing to do with a midfield crossover entry, which (IMO) is one of several appropriate ways to enter a traffic pattern. Regardless of which entry you use, the key is to see and avoid (and be a good neighbor).
Sounds like the OP did a good job with his part of it and the other guy didn't.
Sounds like the OP did a good job with his part of it and the other guy didn't.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Here is where you can read all about it....
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/SA08_Nontowered_Airport_Ops.pdf
Note the FAA Version... Advisory Circular 90-66A also references the above AOPA Document (5g)
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/joh...d_Programs/CFI/Traffic Patterns AC 90-66A.pdf
Note that Figure 9 shows a right turn when approaching to land while FAR 91.126(b) requires left turns.
igorek82
Pre-Flight
Assume no automated weather and no one answering the UNICOM and a hypothetical NORDO traffic in the pattern... How do you decide which runway you are going to enter midfield at pattern altitude?
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Same way I would for any other entry -- trees, smoke, clouds, weather briefing, etc.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
If you mean the teardrop turn back to the 45 entry shown by dashed loop, it's certainly not drawn that way, but it's supposed to occur "approx. 2 mi." after crossing, and thus be "clear of the traffic pattern." (see box 2).
sarangan
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,897
- Display Name
Display name:
Andrew, CFI-I
This letter, though it is a legal interpretation, does not present a logical argument. It says 45-deg right turn is ok because of 91.126(b)(1) - which says turn left unless the airport has a right hand pattern. The letter is interpreting that to mean turn any way you like.
And triple technically...Here's the letter...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...011/gossman - (2011) legal interpretation.pdf
JHW
En-Route
yep, there is always some smoke or dust or flags flying. This anthill is being turned into something of a mountain.
igorek82
Pre-Flight
How about on a calm day and no designated calm wind runway for said airport ?
JHW
En-Route
From which direction are you approaching? Is there a runway roughly aligned with your direction of flight ? Is there runway that allows you to land over an open field instead of houses? Is there a runway that feeds toward a shorter taxi to the fuel pumps ?
woodchucker
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
- Messages
- 1,840
- Display Name
Display name:
woodchucker
Question about the mid-field to downwind. If you are going to barge into the pattern at that point, why not just fly an opposite side base and barge in there? Saves fuel and time. Is there any difference really?