Cross Country through B for a checkride?

exncsurfer

exncsurfer

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exncsurfer
Would you plan a check-ride cross country through Class B? I was planning to do that, but it raises a couple of questions. How do you plan checkpoints when you don't know how ATC will vector you once inside or where exactly you will come out. Its probably not relevant as the flight will never happen but from a 'what does a DPE expect to see' perspective, are there any pitfalls? Would you just plan to go around it?

Along the same lines, would you get an actual endorsement from your instructor to enter class B for a theoretically theoretical flight. Perhaps the DPE could take you that far before diverting.

And yea, before you say it, I will ask my CFI.
 
I am planning mine around the Class B for my PP check ride just so I don't have to bother with missing my first couple of checkpoints if I get vectored. For me it only adds about 10 miles to the trip, but makes the planning easier. And yes, that was the recommendation of my CFI!
 
Bryan or was it Brian, Breean, whatever @SixPapaCharlie just showed all the noobs how to easily deal with class B in his latest video. Shirley someone as smart as a DPE would already know this stuff. :D

 
Matt said:
I am planning mine around the Class B for my PP check ride just so I don't have to bother with missing my first couple of checkpoints if I get vectored. For me it only adds about 10 miles to the trip, but makes the planning easier. And yes, that was the recommendation of my CFI!
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Cool, I was going to plan through, because that's what I would do, but the B is at about 60nm on the route and I wouldn't expect to go that far. Anyone go that far on theirs before turning back?
 
Never got that far away on my checkride. Maybe 10nm away at the most. I'd do a plan going through it, and one with the anticipation of a "remain clear"
 
Actually, after being reminded of the official Class B training I received in 6PC"s FAA certified training video, I will just go straight through the Bravo using someone else's call sign. That should be an automatic pass from the DPE!
 
Matt said:
Actually, after being reminded of the official Class B training I received in 6PC"s FAA certified training video, I will just go straight through the Bravo using someone else's call sign. That should be an automatic pass from the DPE!
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Yea, with the flask of 'coffee'.
 
Should be fine as long as the "coffee" is shared pro rata with DPE...
 
My take...plan the route through Bravo and know what you have to do to get through Bravo...but plan a "plan B" route plotted and explain what it is to the DPE if you are told to remain clear. DPE wants to see your flight planning skills.

If you were assigned a XC with a Bravo in the way and plan a route around it, expect the question "why did you not just go through the Bravo" or if you just plan through it expect "what if you are told to remain clear". Cover both answers before they are asked.

We diverted after my first visual checkpoint which was barely out of the Delta airspace we started in.
 
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I would plan it both ways just to show forethought.
You don't want to get a cocky DPE who sees your plan through it and he tests you and says "Whoops, they kicked you out. Now what?"
Realistically in a long XC going around Bravo versus over it saves you a trivial amount of time.
Your safest option is to plan around it.
 
exncsurfer said:
Would you plan a check-ride cross country through Class B? I was planning to do that, but it raises a couple of questions. How do you plan checkpoints when you don't know how ATC will vector you once inside or where exactly you will come out.
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Just like any flight, Class B or not. You may need to divert even if your flight is entirely in Class E. The purpose of a plan is not to stick to it; it is to have a default position that gives you the freedom to be flexible.

Its probably not relevant as the flight will never happen but from a 'what does a DPE expect to see' perspective, are there any pitfalls? Would you just plan to go around it?
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Knowledge, good planning, anticipation of alternatives. "Knowledge - Risk Management - Skill" in ACS speak. I also have no doubt @Shawn is absolutely correct - if you were given a route with a straight line that would cross Class B or C or D airspace, it will be a topic of discussion whether you plan around it or though it.

Personally, just as I do in real life when VFR in that situation, I would plan for both -hope to get a through, but plan for an around.

Along the same lines, would you get an actual endorsement from your instructor to enter class B for a theoretically theoretical flight. Perhaps the DPE could take you that far before diverting.
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That's an interesting question. With not much regulatory to actually support it , applicants for a certificate are generally treated as though they already have the rating. How that would apply to the Class B endorsement It's a subject I definitely would discuss with my CFI, who supposedly has some idea of the DPE's individual proclivities. My default position would be to plan the cross country as though I were a private pilot but be ready to discuss the differences between my privileges before an after.
 
IRL, I do plan cross-countries through Class B if appropriate.

But why would you add the extra variables for your checkride? You don't necessarily know your clearance before you get it, so it's that much more difficult to plan for. For instance, I usually get a pretty broad clearance through SFO Class B -- basically, stay in the southwest half. But last time I went through, I got vectors the whole way, along with several different altitude assignments, and got dumped out at the end at the Golden Gate Bridge. Which was great, except I was headed for Oakland.

You can ask for specific routing (say, direct SAU VOR), but there is no guarantee you'll get it. It's much more likely in a Class B with transition routes, as long as your request is one of the routes.

At the end of the day, you'll be a pilot regardless of whether you plan through Class B or not. You should be able to do it, but it's not required for your checkride. Just be prepared to explain your choice.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Personally, just as I do in real life when VFR in that situation, I would plan for both -hope to get a through, but plan for an around.
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I do the same thing in real life. I fly through LAX Bravo quite a bit as they have published VFR routes, but I have a flight plan stored in Foreflight ready to recall at a moment's notice that ducks around/under the Bravo and surrounding airpace should I ever be denied as they usually don't clear you till the last second. Only have had to use it once. If I get denied, there is zero question on what I need to do next to continue the flight.
 
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MAKG1 said:
But why would you add the extra variables for your checkride?
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Because on a PPL Chekride the DPE is gonna wanna see that you are prepared and thought through the variables when planning your XC. Why else would a DPE give a student a XC to plan with a B in the way?
 
Shawn said:
Because on a PPL Chekride the DPE is gonna wanna see that you are prepared and thought through the variables when planning your XC. Why else would a DPE give a student a XC to plan with a B in the way?
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Because it's just as legit to plan a flight around it. It almost always adds very little distance, unless the B surface area is very close to one of the airports. Like, it's signficant from SQL to STS, but not from SJC to STS. In the former case it adds around 5 miles to go around.

Having said that, it's often easier to go through than around. No reason to be afraid of it. But there are fewer contingencies to plan if you assume you're not getting in.
 
Shawn said:
Because on a PPL Chekride the DPE is gonna wanna see that you are prepared and thought through the variables when planning your XC. Why else would a DPE give a student a XC to plan with a B in the way?
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Exactly. Unless there are no other options, the fact that the DPE chose that direction is a pretty good indicator the applicant is going to have to deal with the variables and a full discussion of VFR in Class B no mater which way he chooses.

Plan through? "What if you are told to remain clear?"
Plan around? "What if you are offered through?" or "Would you ask for direct through?

I suspect the exact same set of knowledge and risk management questions could be applied to both. I don't see too much difference in the variables that apply to either scenario.
 
My DPE had me plan to Little River (LLR) from Lincoln (LHM) (no Bravo). I did plan a bit longer route that avoided some of the mountainous terrain and he did ask me why and said he would have just gone direct, but that was the end of that line of questioning and it didn't seem to hurt my evaluation. I suppose, as long as you have a decent explanation for the route you chose, it shouldn't hurt you.
 
John221us said:
My DPE had me plan to Little River (LLR) from Lincoln (LHM) (no Bravo). I did plan a bit longer route that avoided some of the mountainous terrain and he did ask me why and said he would have just gone direct, but that was the end of that line of questioning and it didn't seem to hurt my evaluation. I suppose, as long as you have a decent explanation for the route you chose, it shouldn't hurt you.
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Really? There was no discussion of flight in mountain terrain?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Your safest option is to plan around it.
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Stop the presses! Ravioli might disagree with @SixPapaCharlie !

When you say "safest option" are you discussing planning for the check ride and potential examiner questions? OR are you saying you would plan around the Bravo in your routine flying?

If you're under or near enough a Bravo airspace you may as well plan it that way, since you'll be flying that way often.
 
Why not?

Heck if you're in class B they could could even give you a heading and distance if needed and if you asked nice.

For a check ride I'd plane through anything but a prohibited, hot restricted, or a TFR I couldn't traverse.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? There was no discussion of flight in mountain terrain?
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I suppose if there were actually mountainous terrain on that route. It goes right through a gap in the Coast Ranges, over Clear Lake. Highest terrain is about 4000 feet, and it can be dodged if needed.

I don't see a better route anywhere near there than direct. I suppose Lake Berryessa might look inviting on the sectional, but it's both far out of the way and rather hostile terrain over there.
 
MAKG1 said:
I suppose if there were actually mountainous terrain on that route. It goes right through a gap in the Coast Ranges, over Clear Lake. Highest terrain is about 4000 feet, and it can be dodged if needed.

I don't see a better route anywhere near there than direct. I suppose Lake Berryessa might look inviting on the sectional, but it's both far out of the way and rather hostile terrain over there.
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Thanks. Local knowledge always helps for context.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Thanks. Local knowledge always helps for context.
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I think every local pilot has taken a flight over Berryessa and thought, "gee where would I put this thing if the engine quit?" and had trouble with an answer. It looks pretty benign on the chart, but the lake is mountainous and rocky -- and with the current drought, ditching isn't even an option. Clear Lake is much better (some of the old timers even have stories about a long abandoned dirt field on an island in the middle of that lake).

What I would have done as a student pilot is "I Follow Roads" through the "mountains" to Ukiah and then a heading to the coastline, backed up by Mendocino VOR. It would be a VERY nice flight. I've spent lots of CAP time in that area -- three disaster relief missions in the last year (two drought missions and a wildfire).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? There was no discussion of flight in mountain terrain?
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He didn't seem to think it was a risk worth worrying about. He was based just north of Napa in some rough terrain, though, so maybe to him it was normal. I personally don't mind adding 5 or 10 minutes to a flight to stay over safer terrain.
 
MAKG1 said:
I suppose if there were actually mountainous terrain on that route. It goes right through a gap in the Coast Ranges, over Clear Lake. Highest terrain is about 4000 feet, and it can be dodged if needed.

I don't see a better route anywhere near there than direct. I suppose Lake Berryessa might look inviting on the sectional, but it's both far out of the way and rather hostile terrain over there.
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I had a route that stayed in the valley a little longer and then went direct over the coastal mountains to LLR (it didn't add much at all). It did avoid some terrain. Now that I have actually flown it a few times, I do tend to go more direct. I dodge the higher peaks and stay near the lake, though. You lose flight following after you cross the ridge, though. At the time, I had never flown it.
 
rolivi said:
Stop the presses! Ravioli might disagree with @SixPapaCharlie !

When you say "safest option" are you discussing planning for the check ride and potential examiner questions? OR are you saying you would plan around the Bravo in your routine flying?

If you're under or near enough a Bravo airspace you may as well plan it that way, since you'll be flying that way often.
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Checkride only. I always plan to go through IRL
He is not likely to be on FF on his checkride anyway so it doesn't make sense for that to be his only plan.
 
I planned mine to stay under the shelf, but explained that if I were a ppl, I would have planned through.


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Plan for it but be prepared to answer all sorts of questions about what's required to get into the airspace, what's required once in the airspace, what cloud clearances are required in class b and any other relevant info.

Just as a reminder. Your DPE may ask you about student pilots entering class b. There is a regulation about this that says student pilots can't enter class b airspace unless they have an endorsement from their instructor and have received proper training. I just thought you should know that.
 
jspilot said:
Plan for it but be prepared to answer all sorts of questions about what's required to get into the airspace, what's required once in the airspace, what cloud clearances are required in class b and any other relevant info.

Just as a reminder. Your DPE may ask you about student pilots entering class b. There is a regulation about this that says student pilots can't enter class b airspace unless they have an endorsement from their instructor and have received proper training. I just thought you should know that.
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Yep, thanks, I mentioned the endorsement in my OP.
 
I faced the same question for my PPL check ride. I decided there was no wrong answer as long as I could explain the one I chose, so I planned through the class B, explained the endorsement and en route IFR conditions as reasons we could not actually do the entire trip that day, and explained that the benefit of going through the class B was a direct route with ATC's help finding and avoiding traffic and navigating to our destination compared with flying over featureless terrain (urban sprawl) while skirting under the class B shelf to get to our destination. We flew less than 10nm of the cross-country (basically until I pointed out to him the curve in the railroad tracks that I had identified as my first visual checkpoint) before breaking off to do ground reference maneuvers and hood work in moderate turbulence for the next hour.

In other words: Pick an answer, explain the pros and cons, and then get back to flying so you can practice the hard stuff that they actually test you on. :)
 
I would. I did. Flying from Topeka to Quincy Ill. Thru the KMCI Bravo. I explained in the oral that I will be flying with Flight Following and expecting vectors. If all else fails I'd request vectors to the Napoleon VOR on the east side of the bravo and continue on course. The examiner liked my explanation and the fact that I didn't fear working with ATC.

Of course I never flew the flight plan as we only started the initial leg before turning back to do airwork.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
More importantly @exncsurfer, When is your checkride?
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Twas last Sunday.(passed) I opted for the 'around the B' plan and explained why. I thought it was kinda pointless to pick a bunch of checkpoints inside the B when they would be telling you where to go anyway. One thing he did was to draw a line through it and ask me where I would enter at a given altitude. We didn't make it far into the plan, I intercepted the VOR, tracked it for a short time then he failed it, had me pick a couple pilotage landmarks off the map then moved on to maneuvers.
 
I knew a DPE who would have the applicant plan a XC that went thru just about every type of airspace back under the old airspace rules. The object was to quiz the applicant on cloud clearance, if communication w/someone was required, etc. Pretty good method for the oral I thought, so I adopted it for my students, especially if their check ride would be with him. :D
 
My XC flight plan for my PP checkride didn't involve any class B. Basically KC (outside MCI Bravo) to Oklahoma City to St Louis (outisde STL Bravo) and back. But you never know what's going to happen inside B that might end up causing you some grief, so make whatever plan you want, and have some options, and make sure to explain your decisions. I remember putting in an extra stop along the way on one of my XC legs. DPE asked me why, didn't I think I had enough fuel? Nope, says I. I've never flown a leg that long before and didn't know how long my bladder would hold out, I figured I'd plan a rest stop along the way just in case. Made him happy.
 
mscard88 said:
I knew a DPE who would have the applicant plan a XC that went thru just about every type of airspace back under the old airspace rules. The object was to quiz the applicant on cloud clearance, if communication w/someone was required, etc. Pretty good method for the oral I thought, so I adopted it for my students, especially if their check ride would be with him. :D
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Pretty sure that plus more was why my DPE for the Comm/Multi gave me an XC to plan that took me through two States. He added the "fun" of the destination being a mountain airport on a high DA day, too.

You just walk through it from start to finish, and he'd interrupt with "Why did you choose that?" He was looking to see if you'd really thought about it and if you knew why you chose an altitude and either entered or avoided specific airspace, etc. I thought it was a great scenario. And quite realistic.
 
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