Cross Country Requirements, Subpart K Instructor

vdehart

vdehart

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
140
Location
Long Beach/Torrance, California
Display Name
Display name:
vdehart
Howdy legal team. I need your interpretation on the rules here. I see that the experience requirements for a CFI-S certificate includes the following:

§ 61.411
25 hours of cross-country flight time

§ 61.1(4) "Cross country time means"
Makes no mention of the definition of cross country flight as it specifically relates to the CFI-S rating It does, however, mention cross country time as it applies to the sport pilot certificate which it defines as being 25nm straight-line from the point of departure. And of course, there is the broad definition of cross country flight being any flight conducted by a pilot in an aircraft that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure that includes the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point excluding any of the individual categories such as those which mention the requirements for private, sport, instrument etc..



My interpretation is a little cloudy here:

Does a CFI-S certificate require 25 hours of cross country flight 25nm+ or just 25 hours of cross country flight that meets the broader definition of cross country as mentioned above?

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
61.1 places no additional requirements on the basic definition of cross-country flight for any instructor certificate that I can see.
 
I'd say it's an error in the reg - something the FAA missed - and the intent was to apply the >25 sport pilot cross country definition. The rulemaking makes it clear that the FAA's intent was to "established minimum aeronautical experience requirements in § 61.411 for flight instructors with a sport pilot rating that exceeds that specified for a sport pilot certificate" (my emphasis). Kind of hard to say that a bunch of hours flying to an airport 5 NM away exceeds the experience required for a sport pilot certificate in any meaningful way.

Whether that means the FAA would interpret around the missing language to make it a requirement without amending the reg is something we can only guess at. My guess would be "yes."

MauleSkinner, aside from what I think is an error with respect to sport pilot instructors, there's a reason there's no additional definition in 61.1 for what counts as a cross country for instructor certificates.
 
According to AFS-800, Mark is correct -- they intended the 25nm minimum to apply to "cross-country" for all Sport Pilot applications including CFI with Sport Pilot rating. I'm guessing the issue under discussion is a result of not thinking through all the ramifications of allowing someone without a CP ticket to become a CFI. Whether they'll make an administrative change to 61.1 or just put it out as an interpretation based on the rulemaking document remains to be seen.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whether they'll make an administrative change to 61.1 or just put it out as an interpretation based on the rulemaking document remains to be seen.
Click to expand...
Further information: AFS-800 does not intend to do anything regulatory about this unless it becomes an issue because folks with less than 25 hours of 25+ XC time are applying for CFI-S tickets and claiming the regs allow it. They have too many other regulatory issues they consider a lot more important on which to spend their regulatory efforts.
 
Ron Levy said:
According to AFS-800, Mark is correct -- they intended the 25nm minimum to apply to "cross-country" for all Sport Pilot applications including CFI with Sport Pilot rating. I'm guessing the issue under discussion is a result of not thinking through all the ramifications of allowing someone without a CP ticket to become a CFI. Whether they'll make an administrative change to 61.1 or just put it out as an interpretation based on the rulemaking document remains to be seen.
Click to expand...
Given that the Chief Counsel has already made it pretty clear that "when the rule and the preamble conflict, the rule controls" that would be an interesting interpretation to see.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Given that the Chief Counsel has already made it pretty clear that "when the rule and the preamble conflict, the rule controls" that would be an interesting interpretation to see.
Click to expand...
Not sure they do conflict. I can see an argument that the paragraph (iii) definition for "Sport Pilot certificates" would apply to all certificates that say "Sport Pilot" on them, including both Sport Pilot pilot certificates and flight instructor certificates with Sport Pilot ratings. Not sure how that argument would fare before the NTSB or USCA, but I can see it being made. In any event, as long as nobody presses to test on the issue, it's a tree falling in an empty forest.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure they do conflict. I can see an argument that the paragraph (iii) definition for "Sport Pilot certificates" would apply to all certificates that say "Sport Pilot" on them, including both Sport Pilot pilot certificates and flight instructor certificates with Sport Pilot ratings. Not sure how that argument would fare before the NTSB or USCA, but I can see it being made. In any event, as long as nobody presses to test on the issue, it's a tree falling in an empty forest.
Click to expand...

Oh, so now "certificate" and "rating" mean the same thing? Hmmmmmmmm.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Oh, so now "certificate" and "rating" mean the same thing? Hmmmmmmmm.
Click to expand...
I didn't say they did, just that I could see the argument being made. In any event, AFS-800 has a lot more pressing issues to deal with, so don't expect anything to happen unless a bunch of people start applying for CFI-SP tickets with less than 25 hours of 25+ nm XC time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top