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Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Walboy, Dec 3, 2014.
I question the GDL88 and flight stream. Isn't there a box that will do both in and out and Wifi? I use Wing X so it looks like the Navworks can do that with a GTN650. Don't know about the navworx displaying traffic on the GTN...
You could get rid of a pile of stuff by installing a PAR200 Audio Panel/Intercom/Com Radio. Sure would clean it up a lot. (does not have an internal marker beacon if that is important to you)
I'd sell the DME while its worth something.
Anyway, Facing a similar decision, I question the sanity of spending $12,000 on a 1968 150 horse airplane but it really is about right for what I use it for and burning ethanol free car gas makes it seem like I may be able to keep flying it for a long time depending on health.
The GDN-88 may require that you also replace your transponder---check on this.
I use Garmin Pilot, so I will probably go with the GDN-84 instead, which I think should work with my current transponder (I am still checking on this).
Remember garmin products only talk to garmin products. So no garmin product will every be compatible with Foreflight, iFly, WingX, etc. You would need to buy yet another third party product to receive ADS-B in on those. Personally, I would stick with the Navworx or Freeflight rather than locking into Garmin only.
I'd never heard of the PAR200 before. That thing rocks!
I had the KMA 24 and changed it for a PMA8000. It's a minor upgrade but I thought it worthwhile - the aux input is nice on longer trips so I can listen to music.
It is literally personal. And not meant to knock going all Garmin. I use android devices. Garmin is not supporting their android product with the same vigor and developement as they are with their apple version. The other applications available for Android are simply a better fit for my personal needs and don't suffer from Garmin's neglect.
I will also never have the fancy high end garmin panel mounted products. They're all light years outside my price range. I can barely afford the plane, let alone $16,000 worth avionics upgrades.
Therefore, I have no need now or in the future to be tied to Garmin products. The more open products better suite me. If I were buying an ADS-B out unit, it would be be one of the non-garmin UATs. That way it would be compatible with any of the many EFB applications out there. Not just one.
You can keep your transponder with a GDL88 or GDL84. If one has a GTN, the GDL88 with a FlightStream is best because it also ties in with the GTN for traffic and weather while also supporting an iPad. The GDL84 is announced for a delivery sometime next year.
I kept the DME because my home base, FTG, is about six miles from DEN. The DME helps with the Bravo airspace. If you aren't flying under a Bravo and don't plan to then the DME is superfluous.
Note that I mostly navigate under the Bravo by looking at landmarks and looking at the DME. I learned it that way before installation of the WAAS GPS. It's nice to have the WAAS GPS, particularly for IFR, but when I can see out the window I don't really use it under the Bravo. YMWV.
Don't fly in anyone's airplane that has a GTN750 if you decide to install a GTN650 as it will make you mad you did not do the same.
Install the GTN750 and you won't regret it, even though your wallet will be lighter.
Overall, it sounds great to me. Only comments are no reason I can see to keep the DME, and you may later want to upgrade that ancient transponder.
Agree. It's a nice box. I love mine.
But installing it will set a person back at least $20k. If a person does a lot of IFR stuff I think the GTN 750 will arguably pay for the difference in price. If VFR-only or VFR-mostly I'd say the 650 is fine.
For a PA 28-180 I think that panel upgrade is fine with the caveat about when I'd spring for the 750 vs the 650.
I'm confused (which isn't abnormal) about the whole ADSB 'in' thing. If the OP goes with the GDL88, it does both out and in, and would display traffic/wx on the 650, relegating anything else 'in' to secondary, and extra cost.
Earlier this year we did a panel upgrade and added a 650/88 combo. Works great for us. The traffic/wx display on the 650 corresponds to what we see thru the GLD39 we had in the airplane (swap between two a/c actually), which talks to our 796 and my Nexus via...you got it...Garmin Pilot.
Re the 650 vs 750....we have nice big displays on the other stuff, so the smaller 650 screen hasn't been an issue for us.
I'm sort of partial to same vendor 'stuff' I guess.
Edit....we kept our DME, KT76A tranx, and dumped the ADF and RNAV.
Traffic and weather on the 750 is much better than on an iPad. The iPad, although a great device is not industrial strength. IMHO the iPad is suitable for backup and access to data and charts, but for flying the airplane, panel mount equipment is much better and can be on all the time without overheating and shutting down and be much more sunlight visible. The GDL88/GTN750 traffic is outstanding. On the map page it shows the closure trend with the traffic to help you determine which targets are a real threat. It also drives the audio panel with traffic alerts, so you don't even need to be looking at the map page to get your attention and where to look for the traffic: "Traffic 12 Oclock, same altitude, less than a mile".
Normally I would recommend keeping the DME if it was working, but with the KN64, the mutual suppression Bus between the GDL88 and the KN64 are not compatible. This may permit the DME to interfere with the GDL88, so I would sell the KN64. I would at least pre-wire the GDL88 and the GTN for interfacing to a FlightStream so that installation of the FlightStream would be a non event. If I could afford it, I would include adding the FlightStream 210. Cut your best deal without the FlightStream. Then agree to do the work if they throw in the FlightStream.
Ditch the DME if you're getting the GPS, keep paper charts as a backup.
I kept my KN64 when I put the IFR GPS and the rest of the panel in but frankly I haven't turned it on in forever. It would be the first thing to go (after the KR-87 obviously).
I was really set on the PMA8000BT but I have not seen a TSO-169a (and stuck mic TSO-C128a) com radio for the difference in price between the 8000BT and PAR200.
For example, the stand alone Garmin GTR225 (TSO169a & C128a) com is $1795.
Panels are very subjective. Pick what you like and install it where you like. I've done a couple of total panel replacements in my planes and found the process to be very rewarding. Start with a blank sheet of paper and turn it into your ideal panel. While you're at it you should consider re-wiring the entire panel and perhaps aft of that. You'd be amazed at the pile of junk wire you can eliminate. Personalize your own plane to suit your own requirements for your own reasons. Personally my favorite mod is removing useless equipment. I like bare minimum gadgetry. Your preferences are probably different. Enjoy the project!
I went with a pretty extensive panel upgrade which included a 650. I would dump the KMA24 and the Sig intercom. I have the 8000BT and love it. The ability to do bluetooth for phone communication makes it great for picking up clearances over the phone while in the plane. There are a number of additonal features that makes the KMA24 obsolete.
I would also drop the KN64. There still is a secondary market for it and you should be able to make some money on it. The same with the ADF. Still a number of places outside of the U.S. where NDB approaches are flown.
As was pointed out, the iPad is a nice to have (backup) but if you are going through the expense of adding a GPS and ADS-B, I would look at the 750 to display weather and traffic.
The FlightStream is a nice add-on, especially for those IFR clearances. Being able to download your flight plan into the navigator from the iPad is a definite plus.
I want at least the traffic to be on the GTN so I can get audible warnings. The rest I don't mind having on the iPad.
I still like having the ipad in front of me so the FlightStream would be OK in lieu of a Stratus 2.
Why not put in a used KLN-94 and an Aspen and ignore the ADS-B stuff for right now...the stuff will get cheaper? I believe that gives you far more capability than just the GTN650 other than the no wass, but the difference in price makes more sense since you're mainly flying vfr (aspen + kln should be about the same as a Gtn+indicator)
As far as the dead radio, the new garmin for about 2k or an sl30 or something like that would be cost-effective
With out WAAS that's less capability.
Doing a panel upgrade without WAAS makes zero sense.
The first thing Id do is make sure I have a good foundation, you'll need WAAS for the ADSB to work later on.
I'm holding off right now on ADSB too, I already have traffic on my 530/430, and just need to mod my GTX330 to a ES and have a few wires added, too bad garmin is the only one who can do it.
It depends on your goals, do you want the upgrade for aviation reasons, or for looks reasons.
Garmin is not the only one that provides ADS-B solutions today, but if compliance is all you want to achieve and you already have a GTX330, it is the least expensive at around $1500 installed. I had a similar situation and did not upgrade my GTX330 to ES, I installed a GDL88 to get the free weather and traffic. I had the mode S TIS traffic like you have now, and upgrading the GTX330 to ES would not add ADS-B traffic. I disconnected the GTX330 TIS traffic and added the GDL88 traffic, way way way more better, plus I get weather. It cost me an extra $3000, but at least I got something for the expense. Had I just upgraded the GTX330 to ES, I would have been compliant and the FAA will be happy, but nothing for me.
He's not flying IFR though, I'm still convinced for the same money I would rather have an Aspen than an awesome GPS.
I see the argument that ADS B needs the WASS, but there will be a stand-alone unit closer to the 2020 mandate (5 years out)...is the OP going to keep the airplane that long anyways? Maximize the usability for the mission, VFR flying. King has a history of making "slide-in" replacements for their equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a KLN94 wass replacement in the near future. I know this is speculation...
I can't offer much as I have limited experience with trying various panel options but I do a lot of flying with the G1000 system and can offer a little from that.
Flying the G1000 and comparing it to flying with a G430 + tablet + whatever else I find that having all the information centralized on the MFD to be much more useful. I suspect many people would agree that getting a 750 and using the ipad for flight planning/charts only (and as a backup gps) is probably more "bang for the buck". Getting the traffic, weather, route of flight and so on as few screens as possible will simplify the information overload a lot. The reduction of duplicated information would probably help in reducing information overload and make for a cleaner/easier flying experience.
Hi Brian, I read your post and I am sorry but I don't understand it. Can you please help me to understand your point? Maybe I can clarify how our panels work.
PS Engineering, Inc
The PAR seems like a good value. (you might need some coffee )
Don't forget this:
Remember a DME is an active high power transmitter. Normally there a suppression circuit between the transponder and the DME to prevent the two from interfering with each other. The DME will interfere with the GDL88 in the same manner without suppression.
I've been in aviation for 10 years and didn't even know that. Guess I've never looked at installing a DME before.
I guess I would question why does the GDL88 have a suppression circuit if there isn't a problem? There may not be a good official answer to the question.
By removing the DME, you can use it's antenna and coax for the GDL88. One less thing to install.
With WAAS the alternate rules are different. Both the destination and the alternate may be based solely on GPS and the ability to substitute the GPS for an ADF or DME is always permitted at the destination or the alternate, if required. If the alternate is an RNAV approach, the GPS may be planned on being used to satisfy the alternate requirement, but the weather must satisfy the LNAV minimum requirement. IOW, if the approach has an LPV, you can't plan on having the availability of vertical guidance.
You can ditch the DME.
See AC 90-108.
See the following quoted from the AIM:
1−1−19. Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS)
c. General Requirements:
1−2−3. Use of Suitable Area Navigation (RNAV) Systems on Conventional Procedures and Routes
Welcome. I re-read this AC several times before tossing out my DME, ADF and assorted extras as trade-in for my GTN-750. Since getting the latter over a year ago, I haven't once used a VOR in anger.
I kept my DME when I upgraded the rest of the panel. It NEVER gets turned on.
Next time I need that 1 1/2 of rack space it goes.
Make sure that the avionics shop enabled the anonymous mode. They frequently forget to do this unless the customer requests it.
@Walboy: Enjoy your new panel.
Very interesting and helpful discussion btw..