Crazy Plane Crash Video from Inside Cockpit

In and down on the ground by 10:00 is kind of a rule of thumb I have heard many times in the Idaho backcountry in the summer time.
 
Clark1961 said:
The Colorado Pilots Association high altitude airport operations/mountain flying course recommends no flight between 1 pm & 4 pm in the summer and no more than 90% of max gross at any time for light aircraft. Obviously those aren't hard-n-fast rules but they are pretty good guides. As always, YMWV.

Edit: That's a very low altimeter setting for that elevation.
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:confused: Altimeter settings in the US are QNH, not QFE.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Altimeter settings in the US are QNH, not QFE.
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Just going on my experience - never see a setting that low up in the hills - it's always well above 30.00
 
andybean said:
Not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about my impeding trip to the Idaho back country this week. Hoping my Turbo and only my 100 pound son on board will fair better than he did with four adult men.
I have done my homework at nausiam for this trip. But if the plane won't fly, you can bet I'm getting it down before the trees. Geez.....
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We have the same base engine. I've added the Merlyn and an inter-cooler. The TSIO-360 FB does okay but tends to see high oil temps. Anyway, make sure you're up to speed on short field technique (not 'cause the runway wil be short but so you can hit your spot and get it in the air when ya need to).

Keep it light and there shouldn't be a problem. Tabs or less...
 
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Clark1961 said:
Just going on my experience - never see a setting that low up in the hills - it's always well above 30.00
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But it's still referencing pressure at sea level QFE (Query Feild Elevation) to give you the the elevation on the altimeter.
You lose pressure as you gain altitude so (QNH, or Query Nil Height) which gets you '0' on the altimeter at field height will be considerably less at those altitudes.
 
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DAlt 9100. 165 hp or 150 hp (actually more like .65 or 100 hp with easily 650 lbs of humans and the airframe. Brian, your point about invulnerability is taken, but if you can't see this as a DAlt issue, then we've got a problem.

So, is every operation beyond the data in the POH for those who say "that's just not gonig to work", an invulnerability issue? Or can we not look at whole picture and say, "whoa!?"

Because, the logical extension of this, is, never criticize ridiculous operation as that is "invulnerability". So where does that stop?
 
I mentioned invulnerability only because when people in hind sight call this pilot an idiot and don't look into how easily it is to get seduced into the same kind of situation you won't learn anything from it.

Just calling the pilot an idiot absolves them of the responsibility of admitting they might do the same thing or something just as stupid, since of course they are not idiots.

Of course I doubt this pilot thought he was an idiot either.

Check out the "Stupidest thing you ever done and got away with thread" I am sure most pilots with much experience at all could post something there. This is just one of the ones that didn't get away with it.


Brian
 
brcase said:
I mentioned invulnerability only because when people in hind sight call this pilot an idiot and don't look into how easily it is to get seduced into the same kind of situation you won't learn anything from it.
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I'm sorry, but I really take exception to this. I have been within seconds of aborting a takeoff (this one from Osh) because I didn't like the aircraft's response. I aborted a takeoff and left a passenger behind at a POA event (in full view of my peers) due to DA issues. I am very, very aware of what my little airplane can and can't do.

brcase said:
Just calling the pilot an idiot absolves them of the responsibility of admitting they might do the same thing or something just as stupid, since of course they are not idiots.
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No, we call the pilot an idiot because he was one. He asked a perfectly good airplane to do more than what it was capable of doing. That is pure stupidity. If his weight and balance didn't tell him the trip wasn't a good idea (did he perform one? Why not?) the takeoff roll should have given him a clue.

brcase said:
Of course I doubt this pilot thought he was an idiot either.
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Idiots rarely think they're idiots, and madmen rarely think of themselves as crazy. Ironically, the truly sage never think of themselves that way.

brcase said:
Check out the "Stupidest thing you ever done and got away with thread" I am sure most pilots with much experience at all could post something there. This is just one of the ones that didn't get away with it.

Brian
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There I have to agree with you, since all of us have likely been imperiled by aspects of aviation who's edge we didn't recognize. However, I believe I read that the accident pilot was a high time commercial aviator. Someone of this ilk should recognize the dangers of overweight aircraft and high DA.
 
steingar said:
I'm sorry, but I really take exception to this. I have been within seconds of aborting a takeoff (this one from Osh) because I didn't like the aircraft's response. I aborted a takeoff and left a passenger behind at a POA event (in full view of my peers) due to DA issues. I am very, very aware of what my little airplane can and can't do.
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Sounds like your awareness has come by trial and error, not preflight planning. Good to see you have learned to appreciate aircraft performance limitations.
 
The fact that this guy had some legit experience under his belt really scares me a lot. I could see this happening to a rookie but a guy who flew in Vietnam? Come now this is not acceptable. Granted he flew helicopters but nonetheless he has to have some good knowledge about aircraft that should have prevented this incident. See guys incident's like this is what scares me about general aviation.
 
LJS1993 said:
The fact that this guy had some legit experience under his belt really scares me a lot. I could see this happening to a rookie but a guy who flew in Vietnam? Come now this is not acceptable. Granted he flew helicopters but nonetheless he has to have some good knowledge about aircraft that should have prevented this incident. See guys incident's like this is what scares me about general aviation.
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Shouldn't scare you, just don't get in his airplane. A military background 30+ years ago doesn't necessarily mean he had military discipline or continued it today. Many do, but not all.
 
denverpilot said:
Shouldn't scare you, just don't get in his airplane. A military background 30+ years ago doesn't necessarily mean he had military discipline or continued it today. Many do, but not all.
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Good point, very true. One would think or at least hope the military structure and thinking would continue beyond service. Either way high hour pilots having accidents disturbs me at times.
 
andybean said:
Not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about my impeding trip to the Idaho back country this week. Hoping my Turbo and only my 100 pound son on board will fair better than he did with four adult men.
I have done my homework at nausiam for this trip. But if the plane won't fly, you can bet I'm getting it down before the trees. Geez.....
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What strips do you plan landing at? Also if you can you might want to wait a couple more weeks. With all the fires the visibility in the backcountry is pretty bad, a lot of times down to a couple miles. Depends on the winds, it goes up and down. Also you can't see the great vistas from the air in the low vis. It is also hotter than hell up here with temps well into the 80s and above. Don
 
Don
We are starting at priest lake cavenaugh bay then Johnson creek then if I have honed my skills enough by then I will hit Mackay Bar. Hoping the fires will not ruin our plans. I'm in Canada today on the way to home base KSNA John Wayne.
So the dates are not flexible. If the fires create a problem we will just bypass Idaho and go straight home. My plan is to takeoff and arrive at these Airports early to avoid DA issues as much as possible. I'm flying my turbo arrow.
Sorry to hijack this thread. Seems like its pretty well run its course
 
You will need your A game for Mackay Bar. Down a steep canyon with a fairly sharp left turn to very short final. Visibility at Johnson Creek doesn't look too bad this morning but it changes hourly. SNA was my home base before I moved up here 30 years ago. Flew at Sunrise/Lenair when I left. Still see Michael Church from time to time. Don
 
What is at Mackay Bar, other than being away from civilization? That is a crazy looking strip to land.
 
1. With out the video this would be interpreted as a lucky pilot who saved his passengers.

2. Had they all died with out the video in a stall spin accident every one would be eulogizing the pilot as a great guy.

The pilot is extremely lucky, and probably skilled but made some very bad choices. He kept it shiny side up and probably saved his pax by slowing it down. He was totally lucky and only luck kept them from all dying, no fire etc...

I am glad, and those of us who have had close calls hope and are glad they were not on tape for the whole world to Monday morning quarterback.

I am not defending this guy at all. I am just glad there are 4 people alive who by all rites could be dead! It should be a training for summer flight training and 9 months of the year in all hot and high areas.
 
denverpilot said:
Interview with the pilot...

http://m.aopa.org/training/articles/2012/120814youtube-crash-pilot-was-going-to-abort.html
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It all makes sense now... a gust got them airborne, a donwdraft brought them down ....while he was looking for a place to land...uphill in the trees somewhere, I guess. Sigh...
I still give him props for crashing so safely, but he could have done better right off the end of the runway. His bad guesstimate of the DA was pretty obvious about halfway down said runway.
 
The accident chain:
"Middle of the day in mountain flying".
"The old manual makes W&B hard-" --->pilot incompetency.
"Four up in a 165 hp aircraft at 600 feet on a hot day". Hmmmn. ---> pilot incompetency
"Failure to abort after 2,500 feet"--->pilot incompetency.
"Failure to abort with 1000 feet to go--->pilot incompetency.
Five links in the chain right there.

He needs to turn in his certificate. Maybe the inspector will do that for him.
 
bbchien said:
The accident chain:
"Middle of the day in mountain flying".
"The old manual makes W&B hard-" --->pilot incompetency.
"Four up in a 165 hp aircraft at 600 feet on a hot day". Hmmmn. ---> pilot incompetency
"Failure to abort after 2,500 feet"--->pilot incompetency.
"Failure to abort with 1000 feet to go--->pilot incompetency.
Five links in the chain right there.

He needs to turn in his certificate. Maybe the inspector will do that for him.
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I don't usually throw stones for fear of finding out I'm living in a glass house, but yeah, this guy ain't a pilot - he's a passenger and needs to have his passenger status legally enforced.
 
Although he had a lot of helicopter time he only had a little over 300hrs fixed wing. He showed poor judgement before when he ran a 150 out of fuel. Don
 
He may also have some negative transfer going on here... way too used to flying low, comfortable even. Altitude wasn't necessarily life in helicopters over Vietnam. ;)
 
The only smart thing he did was to stick the nose of the airplane between a couple of trees to take away some of the inertia of the aircraft and let it crash slower. But that doesn't cover up his earlier mistakes.:no:

If you check out the picture of the crashed plane you can see the wings took the most damage it looks like.
 
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bbchien said:
The accident chain:
"Middle of the day in mountain flying".
"The old manual makes W&B hard-" --->pilot incompetency.
"Four up in a 165 hp aircraft at 600 feet on a hot day". Hmmmn. ---> pilot incompetency
"Failure to abort after 2,500 feet"--->pilot incompetency.
"Failure to abort with 1000 feet to go--->pilot incompetency.
Five links in the chain right there.

He needs to turn in his certificate. Maybe the inspector will do that for him.
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Believe it or not, even with that length of accident chain, it's not complete!

On top of all that, he tried to take off full rich at high density altitude in a 165 HP aircraft. You can see the mixture knob early in the video.

He might have well just been dragging a boat anchor along for good measure....

But the failure to abort was the real cause, IMO.
 
yakdriver said:
Although he had a lot of helicopter time he only had a little over 300hrs fixed wing. He showed poor judgement before when he ran a 150 out of fuel. Don
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Even a competent helo pilot understands the effects of Density Altitude.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Clark1961 said:
The Colorado Pilots Association high altitude airport operations/mountain flying course recommends no flight between 1 pm & 4 pm in the summer and no more than 90% of max gross at any time for light aircraft. Obviously those aren't hard-n-fast rules but they are pretty good guides. As always, YMWV.

Edit: That's a very low altimeter setting for that elevation.
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What does the elevation have to do with the altimeter setting?:nono:
 
Clark1961 said:
Fly out here for awhile then see if you want to ask the question.:nono:
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Still doesn't make sense. You all don't have a problem out there because of a "low altimeter setting." Right now DEN with an elevation of 5,433 ft has an altimeter setting of 3011. Over here at CZL with an elevation of 650 ft we have an altemeter setting of 3009. We're both under a high pressure system. You all have a problem in the summer because if you take that pressure altitude in the Rockies and combine that with the outside temp (humidity as well) you get a far higher density altitude than what we get out here. All that with a higher alitmeter setting than ours at a lower elevation.
 
Velocity173 said:
Still doesn't make sense. You all don't have a problem out there because of a "low altimeter setting." Right now DEN with an elevation of 5,433 ft has an altimeter setting of 3011. Over here at CZL with an elevation of 650 ft we have an altemeter setting of 3009. We're both under a high pressure system. You all have a problem in the summer because if you take that pressure altitude in the Rockies and combine that with the outside temp (humidity as well) you get a far higher density altitude than what we get out here. All that with a higher alitmeter setting than ours at a lower elevation.
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Denver isn't that high. i'm pointing out that the altimiter settings are always high up in the hills. you folks can argue all you want, i just fly there.
 
Rule #1: If you're going to do something that demonstrates a complete lack of living brain cells, turn off the camera.
Rule #2: Under no circumstances, give the investigators more than one video perspective.

What are the odds that instead of a call to check weather, this flight was preceded with a call of, "Hey, y'all - hold my beer!"?
 
Missed it. Anyone know if it is reposted anywhere?
 
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