Crash in Arizona (Marana, Feb 19, 2025)

[Wagondriver]

I was talking with another person that knew the pilot of the Lancair, during the brief conversation he said "... Mike lost his temper, now he's dead"

150' while half way down the runway on a go around? Seems like a failure to properly execute the go around.

 

[M20K]

So, in the situation here, in no way could ADS-B have been a benefit. It may (or may not) have been a distraction.

Really?? I don't remember if the CFI or Learner/Student stated if they actually LOOKED at their Traffic before they started their takeoff roll. But had they, it should have shown the Lancair closing in on their tail and descending.

So I totally disagree with your thought that "...in no way could ADS-B have been a benefit." Could it have been THE saving factor, no, we can't say that either. But if you use ADS-B in busy airspace, you'll quickly see how it can help you spot planes. And again, from what we can speculate sitting in our comfy desk chairs, I think ADS-B would have given me pause before lifting off to find out what the Lancair was doing. I certainly would have been calling on the radio to confirm he could see me sitting on the runway!! At that point he probably would be saying unkind words to me, but I'd know he saw me and I could find out his plan. If he didn't respond, I'd be exiting the Rwy damn quick!!

 

[Rene]

Really?? I don't remember if the CFI or Learner/Student stated if they actually LOOKED at their Traffic before they started their takeoff roll. But had they, it should have shown the Lancair closing in on their tail and descending.

So I totally disagree with your thought that "...in no way could ADS-B have been a benefit." Could it have been THE saving factor, no, we can't say that either. But if you use ADS-B in busy airspace, you'll quickly see how it can help you spot planes. And again, from what we can speculate sitting in our comfy desk chairs, I think ADS-B would have given me pause before lifting off to find out what the Lancair was doing. I certainly would have been calling on the radio to confirm he could see me sitting on the runway!! At that point he probably would be saying unkind words to me, but I'd know he saw me and I could find out his plan. If he didn't respond, I'd be exiting the Rwy damn quick!!

My post #191:
"0825:14, the student pilot announced their intentions to perform a stop and go landing.

"0825:41, the Lancair transmitted 'traffic on base are you a touch and go?' to which the flight instructor replied, “we are a stop and go”.

"0826:05, the pilot of the Lancair advised that they were turning left base and . . .

"shortly after the student pilot advised that they were on final for a stop and go on runway 12."

"The flight instructor stated that they landed uneventfully and while in the process of taking off, they heard the Lancair pilot announce on the CTAF that he was going around again. The flight instructor stated that she looked at ADS-B information displayed on her iPad and saw the Lancair converging towards their airplane from behind. As the instructor was “keying up the radio” to ask the Lancair pilot if they saw them, both airplanes collided."

from Preliminary report: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/199723/pdf posted in #175 by @tlglenn

***
Going back to the report in #175 to fill in (I pulled this data from the ADS-B diagram to augment the type in red above):

"0826:05, the pilot of the Lancair advised that they were turning left base.

"0826:12 (172) on final runway 12 for stop and go.

"0827:51, the pilot of the Lancair advised they were on a one mile final."

(0828:15) "seconds later (the Lancair) announced that they were 'going around again'.

"0828:41, the Cessna student pilot announced that they were on the upwind.

(I think that time-wise this occurred concurrent with the student taking off.) The flight instructor stated that she looked at ADS-B information displayed on her iPad and saw the Lancair converging towards their airplane from behind. As the instructor was “keying up the radio” . . .

0828:46 By 172: "Lancair Zero Two Mike . . . AH"

". . . . to ask the Lancair pilot if they saw them, both airplanes collided."

"About ten seconds later the Cessna declared an emergency."

***
I don't have a comfy desk chair. I'm bored, I just got finished cleaning the working griddle and taking the one that doesn't work apart (one of the conductors had broken . . . maybe they have 'em at Tractor Supply). But It's an honest way to pay for mogas, engine reserves, and insurance.

***
Now, perhaps I am missing something. But it seems to me that the CFI had ADS-B on her iPad and did what you said that you would have done up until the moment of impact. Both the student pilot and the Lancair pilot were announcing their intentions on CTAF. Perhaps the student did not have a grasp on how fast the Lancair was, perhaps the Lancair did not have a grasp on how slow the 172 was. But each knew the other was in the pattern.

Right-or-wrong, the 172 owned the runway, the student pilot announced his intentions and actions. I don't know why the Lancair pilot didn't sidestep. I don't know why the Lancair pilot didn't climb to pattern altitude but instead chose to overfly - what he knew to be a runway occupied by an airplane whose pilot had announced he was going to take off - at only 150 feet AGL. ADS-B was as relevant to this situation as genuine sheepskin seat covers.

 

[Rene]

". . . . lost his temper, now he's dead"

Yeah, the narrative sorta reads that way.

 

[Racerx]

Actually the correct answer often is to trade out your 1940s tech… as long as you do it smartly, that is.

No matter how vigorously you end up advocating for “paying attention” and being “always in command” , we are all human and there are pretty hard limits as to how much improvement you can achieve with this approach alone.
I would even argue that we have hit these limits a while ago and virtually all of modern safety improvements are result of augmenting humans and their inherent limitations with increasingly smarter and better technological solutions that are not meant to allow us to become more reckless while relying on machines to maintain the same level of safety ( as you seem to be suggesting ) but rather further improve upon it.

Agreed. We've seen time and time again see and be seen seen is a fallacy. Simply paying more attention doesn't always work. Anyone have ATC call out traffic and never spot them? Arguing against adsb and claiming your eyes are better is just willful ignorance. It's simply another instrument to add to your scan. And when there's 4 planes the pattern, you're not going to get the big picture just by looking out the window and talking. One glance at a screen does way more for getting that bigger picture. Provided you understand the limitations.

In a busy airport environment, doing a stop and go is imo poor form. When there's nobody around, go for it. I don't care much for touch and go's either unless it's go around practice.

 

[M20K]

Now, perhaps I am missing something. But it seems to me that the CFI had ADS-B on her iPad and did what you said that you would have done up until the moment of impact.

Little too late, so no, not exactly what I was talking about. I would have looked before starting the TO roll (but then I wasn't there and don't know all the factors).

But basically the same thing I do before taxing onto the Rwy, clear the final visually and take a glace at the Traffic for that extra check that I didn't miss someone. In this case you can't really clear the final, and no one should be landing, but an earlier check of traffic might have expedited the departure to get out of the way to let them land or they may have realized how close he was and stayed on the ground, where in this case, it appears the guy would have buzzed them. Again no absolute, but to not use a tool right there in front of your nose is a shame.

 

[Racerx]

150' while half way down the runway on a go around? Seems like a failure to properly execute the go around.

FAFO

 

[edo2000]

I am fan of ADSB and use it on every flight. But once I am in the traffic pattern, I much prefer communications with other aircraft and visual separation. If I am in communication with an aircraft behind me and he acknowledges that I am on short final, near touchdown, executing a stop and go, I am definitely not looking at at the ADSB display. I am executing the operation that I communicated...

I honestly don't know how a slow airplane can avoid a very fast one approaching from behind with the plan (apparently) to come very close. Anything the 172 did, including stopping completely, might still have been in the path of the approaching Lancair. A low pass at 150ft, knowing there is an aircraft on the runway, that you don't see, wow.

 

[bbchien]

Wow just wow. Not PC of me to have no sympathy for the Lancair flyer... but I don't. A couple of weeks ago I was attempting to land at KJOT. A Helo instructor, with R44 student, just kept returing to occupy and hover over the numbers. I went around twice. He never returned a call- that's because although he was on the correct com frequency and I could hear his tranmissions to the cherokee also in the pattern....He could not hear me nor I him. After two go-arounds I decided that was just not worth it and returned to base 1C5, where he was now hovering over the approach end of 18. WTF?

After, I had a discussion with that CFI on the ramp (My safety pilot was a new FAA inspector and the discussion occured in his presence though the CFI was unaware of who he was). It was cordial. He had the correct freqs tuned (we had a look at it), but his VHF antenna was mounted at the bottom of the tail Boom- e.g a very weak ground plane. Radios are just that way sometimes. Just it's not worth dying over.

Well, Who is the encumbered aircraft when he is overtaking from behind? Certainly not the 80 kt C172. So the message is "Share the airspace with diligence" and if you get frustrated, don't whig out, you might kill someone and that someone just might be you. And he proceeded despite knowing it was a STOP and Go, Not a touch and go....

B
(...And I fly a PA 34, that'll be 88kts min (105 mph) in the pattern = blueline)

 

[Warmi]

Wow just wow. Not PC of me to have no sympathy for the Lancair flyer... but I don't. A couple of weeks ago I was attempting to land at KLOT. A Helo instructor, with R44 student, just kept returing to occupy and hover over the numbers. I went around twice. He never returned a call- that's because although he was on the correct com frequency and I could hear his transission to the cherokee also in the pattern....He could not hear me nor I him. After two go-arounds I decided that was just not worth it and returned to base 1C5, where he was hovering over the approach end of 18. WTF?

After, I had a discussion with that CFI on the ramp (My safety pilot was a new FAA inspector and the discussion occured in his presence though the CFI was unaware of who he was). It was cordial. He had the correct freqs tuned (we had a look at it), but his VHF antenna was mounted at the bottom of the tail Boom- e.g a very weak ground plane. Radios are just that way sometimes. Just it's not worth dying over.

Well, Who is the encumbered aircraft when he is overtaking from behind? Certainly not the 80 kt C172. So the message is "Share the airspace with diligence" and if you get frustrated, don't whig out, you might kill someone and that someone just might be you. And he proceeded despite knowing it was a STOP and Go, Not a touch and go....

B
(...And I fly a PA 34, that'll be 88kts min (105 mph) in the pattern = blueline)

Isnt KLOT a D class airport these days with a more-less proper tower ?

 

[Rene]

Isnt KLOT a D class airport these days with a more-less proper tower ?

I'm more confused as to why a big "International" airport like 1C5 is still alpha-numeric.

 

[Daleandee]

A few moons ago when I first installed ADS-B I was a bit surprised at the amount of traffic that was around that never used a radio and my eyes failed to find. Later installing ADS-B in & out I found even more traffic. There is no contradiction to the fact that, at times, ADS-B makes other traffic easier to find.

It may be a poor analogy but when I was buying my pickup the salesman was going on about heated seats, heated steering wheel, heated mirrors, etc. and I told him I didn't need those things as I was old school. Well ... having used them on a wet, cold, and frosty morning, I'm pretty sure I do need them and I ain't going back ...

 

[midwestpa24]

Long story short - why the pushback on ADS-B as something to augment overall situational awareness?

ADS-B can be a great tool to aid situational awareness, but it can also be a crutch and interfere with SA just as easily, depending on expectations and how it is used.

It can be great to give you an overall picture of the traffic around you. When it first came around, it was quite eye opening to see how much other traffic was out there that you wouldn't have seen normally.

But when you have another aircraft half a mile from you, or on the same downwind as you, heads down looking at the iPad or panel is not where you need to be. I have almost been rear ended by an aircraft on downwind who was heads down watching their ADS-B instead of looking out the windshield. ADS-B is not going to resolve the conflict for you.

The other side, ADS-B isn't perfect because not all aircraft are equipped. You still have to be eyeballs outside looking for the others.

 

[midwestpa24]

As for this accident, as I previously stated it had all the hallmarks of a road rage type incident. There is only one way a 172 will out climb a Lancair, and that is because the Lancair let it.

I witnessed a similar incident here, involving one of my students on their first solo. On their first trip around the pattern, just as they were preparing to turn base, another pilot I knew in a high performance airplane called a straight in final, traffic permitting. My student, just turning base, saw the other aircraft and knew that they were established in the pattern, closer to the runway, and at a lower altitude than the straight in aircraft, plus the other pilot said "traffic permitting", so they continued their base turn and final. The other pilot got mad that they were cut off, and decided to buzz my student as they were touching down. Once the other pilot landed, we had words. He was apologetic, especially as he didn't realize it was a student pilot he was dealing with. I was furious, especially because this particular student had struggled with their confidence and had taken longer than average to solo. It became a learning experience for both of them.

 

[bbchien]

Rene & Warmi: I got it incorrectly and revised my post; it was KJOT.