Crash enroute Oshkosh

OMG my heart sank when you posted this. I was offered a ride in a Bo from Cali to Osh Kosh to share expenses but I don't have that much vacation time at work. I thought it was my friend, one of the formation pilots.

It is not my friend, but still sad to read.
 
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
 
Because it is a reality of flying, and there is something to be learned from every accident.
 
It is a reality check. No matter how many hours and endorsements in your logbook, accidents can and will happen.
 
Mafoo said:
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
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Three comments:

1. If you are doing something you should know the risks. I am OK with people posting crashes here, and honestly, I think it makes me more careful when I fly.

2. The public hears about them a lot and often asks me about it - so there is "external pressure" if you will. Pressure to know about recent crashes, especially local to me.

3. I am starting to hang out at the airport more and the pilots talk about it even more than the public. None of them seem to say "I don't want to hear about this."
 
Also, fewer car crashes are fatal or crippling than plane crashes. I have personally been in a handful of car crashes, some where the car was totalled, and not had one injury.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Also, fewer car crashes are fatal or crippling than plane crashes. I have personally been in a handful of car crashes, some where the car was totalled, and not had one injury.
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Wow you've been in a handful of car crashes? Are we talking you as the driver for all of these? I did some mild street racing and quarter mile driving back in the day and can't say I've had the pleasure of being in a handful of car wrecks.
 
Mafoo said:
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
Click to expand...

Well I'm not a pilot but love aviation and do plan on someday working on a PPL so take my opinion as you may. Personally I don't mind hearing about the crashes that take place because I want an honest illustration of the risks involved with this endeavor. Plus I really want to learn about the mistakes, if any, made during these incidents.
 
I guess I get that if there is something to be learned by it. This article however doesn't give much to do on, to consider it a candidate for process improvement.

I guess there is value in keeping in the front of your mind, that this is not an activity without risk.

Anyway, didn't want to take to much time off the topic. Thanks for the answers. I hope these two gentlemen recover fully.
 
LJS1993 said:
Wow you've been in a handful of car crashes? Are we talking you as the driver for all of these? I did some mild street racing and quarter mile driving back in the day and can't say I've had the pleasure of being in a handful of car wrecks.
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No silly. I live in the SF Bay Area. People rear end other people in traffic all the time.

Me personally, I can only remember one crash that was my fault, probably 5 or 10 years ago. The other was when my Dad said he had "fixed the brakes" when I was really young, but they failed at about 5mph in stop and go rush hour on the freeway. All other accidents have been people running into me (rear enders) or I've been in another person's car during a crash, I was a passenger.
 
Mafoo said:
I guess I get that if there is something to be learned by it. This article however doesn't give much to do on, to consider it a candidate for process improvement.

I guess there is value in keeping in the front of your mind, that this is not an activity without risk.

Anyway, didn't want to take to much time off the topic. Thanks for the answers. I hope these two gentlemen recover fully.
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Most crashes take a long time to learn from, aka when the NTSB is done with the report. A guy crashed at one of my airports last week or so, the reporters got a bunch of stuff wrong. When reading a "to the minute" report of a crash, now, I know better than to believe them - one guy said there were 4 in the plane, another said there was one. Another said it was a student pilot, yet another said PPL. Etc.
 
gkaiser said:
I think this is the 3rd crash within a week in Chicagoland..

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-in-aurora-cornfield-20120725,0,4356975.story

Bonanza en route from Cali to OSH..lost power after departure...
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I just spent alot of time in the last two days helping the owner and the pilot flying from California to OSH recover his destroyed plane.. It crashed in the BTNF about 50 miles from my home here in Jackson Hole... The wreckage is sitting in my yard right now.... That has set me back a couple of days to launch to OSH... I am leaving at first light tomorow,( thurs)....

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=71125
 
jstro said:
If you're going to lose an engine on take-off, KARR is a great place to do it at. You're surrounded by flat farm fields.
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Except that they landed in a corn field, which is much more violent than landing in a soybean field. Typically in this part of the country half the fields are corn, half are beans. If you have time to choose, and maybe they didn't, you want to choose the beans. That's because the rows of beans are like three-foot-tall bushes, while the corn is taller and stronger, like eight-foot trees.

Agreed, though, that the multitude of flat farms in the midwest are a comforting sight when you think about an emergency off-field landing.
 
NoHeat said:
Except that they landed in a corn field, which is much more violent than landing in a soybean field. Typically in this part of the country half the fields are corn, half are beans. If you have time to choose, and maybe they didn't, you want to choose the beans. That's because the rows of beans are like three-foot-tall bushes, while the corn is taller and stronger, like eight-foot trees.

Agreed, though, that the multitude of flat farms in the midwest are a comforting sight when you think about an emergency off-field landing.
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when i was in flight school the Iowa FSDO showed pictures of every plane that had landed in beans in the previous year. every single one was upside down, it didn't matter if it had a nose gear or tailwheel. everyone that went in the corn was right side up. we were left to draw our own conclusions. you'll come to a stop fast no matter which you choose.
 
Mafoo said:
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
Click to expand...

Some try and learn from the accidents. Others are the equivalent of drivers who stare at a car accident as they drive past. Insurance companies move accidents into statistical models to base coverage.

For example, when I started flying complex, I had to get 10hrs dual and 15 solo before I could carry passengers. All this because most Arrow gear-up accidents occur in the first 25 hours of flight.:rolleyes:
 
There have been two crashes within 10nm of my home airport in the last two weeks. One guy went down in a corn field, the other ditched in the water (all occupants survived both incidents). I flew a 60nm training cross country yesterday and was probably more aware of possible landing spots more than ever - not a bad thing.

Like others have said, I try to learn whatever I can from other people's misfortunes. Once a month (or when I get bored at work) I will browse the NTSB accident reports and read each one from the previous month trying to learn what went wrong and how to prevent it in my own flying.

OP, I understand your point of view and I too had asked myself the same question when I started taking lessons. I use these posts as tools.

PS: I'm glad these guys will be ok. Too bad about the Bo.
 
tonycondon said:
when i was in flight school the Iowa FSDO showed pictures of every plane that had landed in beans in the previous year. every single one was upside down, it didn't matter if it had a nose gear or tailwheel. everyone that went in the corn was right side up. we were left to draw our own conclusions. you'll come to a stop fast no matter which you choose.
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Beat me to it. I've always heard that beans are great plane flippers. I'd much rather the bird get beat to **** by corn than flipped by beans.
 
timwinters said:
Beat me to it. I've always heard that beans are great plane flippers. I'd much rather the bird get beat to **** by corn than flipped by beans.
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everyone assumes that corn will destroy the plane but i had a friend who landed his 2 seater Grob sailplane in a field of corn and there was absolutely no damage to the glider. They did stop fast though and they did wreck a lot of corn getting the glider out, but the glider was fine.
 
NoHeat said:
Except that they landed in a corn field, which is much more violent than landing in a soybean field. Typically in this part of the country half the fields are corn, half are beans. If you have time to choose, and maybe they didn't, you want to choose the beans. That's because the rows of beans are like three-foot-tall bushes, while the corn is taller and stronger, like eight-foot trees.
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Very true. That corn would be a hard stop. I think I would head for the beans, but the comments here make me wonder if that is a good idea after all.
 
I would think the tallness and resilience of the corn stalks would make them great energy absorbers in an off field landing. Out here, we have more vineyards than corn fields. Vineyards can be real plane wreckers to land on, particularly if they are old growth.
 
I'll add this - Kudos to the reporter for not saying that the plane stalled, or many of the other ignorant things reporters often say after an off field landing.

Sac - yeah... I'd think corn is much better. As a paramedic I was once called to a "plane crash". Fuel exhaustion led to an off-field landing in a bean field. Beans and airplanes are a bad mix. The plane would have probably been ok if the beans hadn't flipped it over.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I would think the tallness and resilience of the corn stalks would make them great energy absorbers in an off field landing. Out here, we have more vineyards than corn fields. Vineyards can be real plane wreckers to land on, particularly if they are old growth.
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Old growth? I thought it was all the metal wires and lines (tubing for water).
 
Vineyards.jpg
 
timwinters said:
Beat me to it. I've always heard that beans are great plane flippers. I'd much rather the bird get beat to **** by corn than flipped by beans.
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I did not know about the problem of planes flipping in a bean field. Thanks Tim and Tony for pointing it out.

I wonder if the flipping happens because of the landing gear, and if so, whether it would be better to land wheels up if you've got a retractable, like the Bonanza in the recent Illinois accident.
 
yes i think its the landing gear. I wouldn't think twice about landing my mono-wheel glider in a bean field, although i'd be doing everything i could to keep the wings parallel to the surface to minimize ground loop chances (same if I had to land in corn)
 
With the plane that I responded to as a paramedic, yes, it was the landing gear getting caught by the beans that flipped it. The "patients" (no injuries) were walking away from the plane as we drove up (through the field), so we didn't get all that close (probably 30 yards away or so), but it didn't look like the plane was all that bad off, other than being upside down.
 
Hadn't thought of it for awhile, but I had a very low unplanned tow release once in my Std Cirrus. Landed in tall corn. Stopped very quickly, but no damage to glider and certainly no flip. It was difficult to get the glider apart and out of there though.
 
lance was that at hinkley? i heard that they just pre-paid the farmer off the end of the runway there since they landed in the corn at least once a year.
 
What's a reasonable amount to expect to pay to cover crop damages for landing a glider in a corn field?

I watched a glider land in a bean field once. Was pretty uneventful. Didn't flip because there's no gear sticking out to catch on anything. No damage that I could see to the glider. Not sure how things were worked out with the farmer who owned the field.
 
tonycondon said:
when i was in flight school the Iowa FSDO showed pictures of every plane that had landed in beans in the previous year. every single one was upside down, it didn't matter if it had a nose gear or tailwheel. everyone that went in the corn was right side up. we were left to draw our own conclusions. you'll come to a stop fast no matter which you choose.
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We came to the same conclusion here in Illinois. And I got assailed for it on the redboard: "Where's the data!!"....and clearly from those who have never landed out

Wheels up in Beans, down in corn. Sigh.
 
Mafoo said:
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
Click to expand...

People die in car crashes because drivers become complacent about driving and forget that their lives are in real and actual danger. Also, most cars today are almost as safe and comfortable feeling as being in your living room. they do not feel dangerous at all.

Many, if not most, airplanes are the same way, very comfortable and safe feeling when your strapped in. Once the novelty of figuring out how to make an airplane go, it does become much like driving a car, assuming you are simply using your airplane for sightseeing and traveling.

None of us likes having to deal with airplane crashes, we do not enjoy talking about them at all. We talk about them in the hopes of learning something, so as such things will not happen to ourselves. Most importantly though, it helps us to keep from becoming complacent about this thing we love doing, flying.

-John
 
Mafoo said:
This is going to be a bit off topic, and I hope not taken in bad taste. I ask strictly because I don't know.

First off, I am glad these two men are alright. Sad to see the start of what I am sure was going to be an extremely fun vacation cut short.

That said, I am curious why in this forum there is so much talk of crashes. I am just getting into this world, and so many of what I see here is about the negative side of things.

If I was 15-16, went to a car forum to learn about driving before I got my license, and every auto accident was talked about in the forum, I might not ever get into a car. Somewhat unsettling as a new perspective pilot, to hear about a crash or two a day.

Why in this community, is it a common thing to post?
Click to expand...

Dude, I would be having the most awesome vacation at OSH!!! I would have an insurance check burning a hole in my pocket at the worlds biggest aviation venue. FMD, it doesn't get better than that. BTW, Didn't you watch 2 weeks of 'Death on the Highway' and 'RR+Red = Dead' drivers ed movies during HS or summer?
 
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\__[Ô]__/;952738 said:
What's a reasonable amount to expect to pay to cover crop damages for landing a glider in a corn field?

I watched a glider land in a bean field once. Was pretty uneventful. Didn't flip because there's no gear sticking out to catch on anything. No damage that I could see to the glider. Not sure how things were worked out with the farmer who owned the field.
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just depends on the amount of damage and what kind of crop. if it seemed fair at the time i'd write a check. if i thought it was ridiculous i'd document with photos and call the insurance company.

guy at the contest landed in a field of full grown Maize. He paid $350 to get out of there.
 
interestingly, one of our club members came up a bit short and landed our 2-22 in a maize field just east of the airport on saturday. damage was limited to the 2 fuselage lengths of flattened maize (thanks to the horizontal stabilizer) as he came to a stop. we lifted the tail up, lined up with a row, and pushed the glider out the side of the field, doing no further damage, and pushed the glider back to the airport on the roads. it actually was a really easy retrieve.
 
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