Crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

So Mr. Henning How do these aircraft types get certified for operations with just one pilot? Sidney Wakeham
 
FYI this is not an ILS approach. He was on a 7 mile straight in final and the accident occurred less than 1 mile from the runway. What do you think the AP would be doing?
 
You are saying we can kill adult airport neighbors at will by crashing into them and they deserve it? And everyone we fly over has no expectation of not being crashed into? Many pilots are pathetic.
SomeTexan said:
The adults weren't non-participants when they bought a house in the approach path. Simple as that, they knew it was a possibility. The kids I feel sorry for, the parents, not so much. Now, because they decided to live in line with a runway, they will probably want to punish all local pilots because of this. It's bs. Just like racetracks, idiots move close to them then complain about the noise and traffic. Simple fix is do a little research before you buy a house, and don't expect everyone to drop to their knees because you made a mistake.
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Ah, just noticed they have an LPV approach for 14. On an LPV approach, does the AP automatically disengage at a certain point?
 
sidneyfw said:
So Mr. Henning How do these aircraft types get certified for operations with just one pilot? Sidney Wakeham
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With an autopilot, I don't think it's particularly safe and even the FAA limits the amount of people industry gets to kill this way.
 
The report Fromm he NTSB said the aircraft entered an aerodynamic stall with pitch and roll oscillations. They also mentioned the 88kts.

Reading a test pilot report, it indicates the stick shaker activates in the landing configuration at 77kts. I was not able to find Vs0 at max gross, but I made a mental general correlation.

I'm thinking this is an accelerated stall. I'm thinking the passenger in the right seat was controlling the airplane. I just have a tough time a trained pilot would screw up with this type of margin above stall.
 
Re: Phenom 100 crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Does that plane have auto throttles? Maybe we're looking at something like Asiana...
 
This information is from 2009, not sure what the current state of auto-throttles in the Phenom is, or how old the accident plane was.

"The Garmin Prodigy system has a new feature, cruise speed control (CSC). When engaged CSC will command the engine fadecs within an operating range to hold the selected cruise speed as fuel weight burns off, or air temperatures change. Garmin and Embraer are working to expand this capability and hope, at some point in the future, to have an approach speed hold mode. Such a system would be like an autothrottle, but would operate during final approach and automatically maintain VREF or a higher speed if turbulence, wind or ATC require."
 
ClimbnSink said:
You are saying we can kill adult airport neighbors at will by crashing into them and they deserve it? And everyone we fly over has no expectation of not being crashed into? Many pilots are pathetic.
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I said nothing about intentionally hitting people. I just said that if you live on the approach to an airport you don't have any right to complain if something happens. Airplanes crash, less often than cars, but they do crash. And putting yourself and your family in the direct path of the riskiest part of flying is beyond stupid. I never said everyone we fly over, just those dumb enough to choose to live that close to the end of a runway. Had you possessed or used basic reading skills, you would have noticed that.

I think I agree with the person who would like to be discussing your wreck in a thread. If you really think an airport should be closed because non-pilots surrounded it and don't like it, turn in your license and go suck up to them. If you think the local pilots should lose their airport just because of an idiot that shouldn't have been at the controls, why are you flying? If you think that we should all be punished for his actions, maybe you should lead by example and quit flying.
 
So if you live on a street you have no right to complain if someone runs over your children? People run over children you know.
SomeTexan said:
I said nothing about intentionally hitting people. I just said that if you live on the approach to an airport you don't have any right to complain if something happens. Airplanes crash, less often than cars, but they do crash. And putting yourself and your family in the direct path of the riskiest part of flying is beyond stupid. I never said everyone we fly over, just those dumb enough to choose to live that close to the end of a runway. Had you possessed or used basic reading skills, you would have noticed that.

I think I agree with the person who would like to be discussing your wreck in a thread. If you really think an airport should be closed because non-pilots surrounded it and don't like it, turn in your license and go suck up to them. If you think the local pilots should lose their airport just because of an idiot that shouldn't have been at the controls, why are you flying? If you think that we should all be punished for his actions, maybe you should lead by example and quit flying.
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"the aircraft’s automated stall warning system sounded continuously for the final 20 sec. of the flight, according to NTSB"

Continuous stall warning for 20 seconds. 20 seconds is a LONG time.

Anybody ever watched an airplane A/P without autothrottles overtrim in an attempt to maintain alt., and then give up and disconnect leaving an inattentive pilot in a sudden, out of trim, incredibly slow situation?
 
The stall warning for 20 seconds makes me wonder if the pilot had a medical problem at a very inopportune moment. That's a LONG time. I feel like most pilots react to that sound like a German Shepherd responds to a bump in the night. I hope the CVR will reveal more of what was going on.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
So if you live on a street you have no right to complain if someone runs over your children? People run over children you know.
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Depends on the accident. If you live at the bottom of a steep icy road and your kids are playing in the street then no, the parents are 100% at fault. It's called risk management.

If your kid gets hit by a car, are you going to expect everyone to throw away their cars and start tearing up the roads? It's the same principal.

Sure, the pilots estate should be given to the surviving child, but the father made his bed, he can sleep in the charred remains.
 
SomeTexan said:
Depends on the accident. If you live at the bottom of a steep icy road and your kids are playing in the street then no, the parents are 100% at fault. It's called risk management.

If your kid gets hit by a car, are you going to expect everyone to throw away their cars and start tearing up the roads? It's the same principal.

Sure, the pilots estate should be given to the surviving child, but the father made his bed, he can sleep in the charred remains.
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What if the car comes through the house setting it on fire and your wife and children burn to death huddling in a bathtub? All because you bought a house on a street.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So if you live on a street you have no right to complain if someone runs over your children? People run over children you know.
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I think the better analogy would be...

We'll say your house backs up to a major road. Your kids are out in your backyard playing when a car from that road leaves the pavement, enters your backyard and runs over your children.

Do you call for the closure of the entire road?

Don't get me wrong here, I have nothing but sympathy for the family. What they're going through is absolutely terrible, and I can't imagine what it's like for them.

Calling for the closure of the airport is an emotional reaction to a tragic event.

SomeTexan said:
Sure, the pilots estate should be given to the surviving child, but the father made his bed, he can sleep in the charred remains.
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That seems a bit harsh.
 
I'm not calling for closure of the airport, just calling out the sentiments of; it is OK they'll be rich, and the idea that they deserved it for living near an airport. Both sick ideas. I shouldn't be surprised, some in this crowd thought that guy and his kid deserved to die for walking on a beach where a plane might need to land.
Understand when they shut our playgrounds down it is because of us, our attitudes and behaviors.
 
ClimbnSink said:
What if the car comes through the house setting it on fire and your wife and children burn to death huddling in a bathtub? All because you bought a house on a street.
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If it is a known dangerous road, then you made the choice. If the previous owner died after a car came through the wall, then why should the new owner expect different?

Now, if a drunk drove through your house, and it is not a dangerous road, then it would be the fault of the driver. But do you rip up all the roads in the county over it? You seem to support closing the airport because of one idiots mistake in the air, and a lot of homeowners making bad decisions on the ground.

I've raced my whole life and had to fight track closure due to idiots building houses near a track, them making noise complaints. They knew the track was there, why didn't they build elsewhere? Others bought houses during the off season, then started throwing a fit when the noise starts. Either they didn't care, or their realtor didn't properly inform them. But do they sue the realtor and find a new house? No, being scum they complain about something that was there before them. I look at non-pilots living near airports the same way, idiots and trash out to ruin other people's fun. The only people with any right to complain are people who lived there before the airport, and only if they opposed it from day one.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'm not calling for closure of the airport, just calling out the sentiments of; it is OK they'll be rich, and the idea that they deserved it for living near an airport. Both sick ideas. I shouldn't be surprised, some in this crowd thought that guy and his kid deserved to die for walking on a beach where a plane might need to land.
Understand when they shut our playgrounds down it is because of us, our attitudes and behaviors.
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Fair enough, I don't agree with the they'll be rich or they deserved it sentiment either.

SomeTexan said:
Maybe, but so does closing an airport and punishing the other pilots for something they didnt have a hand in.
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Also true.
 
My .02 worth, I agree with Adam's point of view, that being said, I feel horrible for the family and certainly do wish that didn't happen. But I could see myself possibly owning a home in the flightpath of a small airport just to watch aircraft fly over. But I would feel pretty stupid if someone parked a plane on my rooftop and my family was killed. But I could see a non-aviation family not even considering that risk. And I surely don't have a solution for this particular airport's location and they fact that the neighborhood developed all around it. Should it close? Should it stay open? I don't know! Definitely thinking about it. Sidney Wakeham
 
Reading from another source that the plane was doing 102kts on approach and that the clean stall is 100KIAS. Since the gear was extended, you would think the flaps would be down, but no word yet if they were deployed. Bitchin' Betty was going off for 20 seconds prior to impact.

Possibly related
There was an airliner crash where the inexperienced copilot was flying and needed the captain to come to flight deck, except he was in the back "welcoming" the new flight attendant. Pure speculation...
 
sidneyfw said:
My .02 worth, I agree with Adam's point of view, that being said, I feel horrible for the family and certainly do wish that didn't happen. But I could see myself possibly owning a home in the flightpath of a small airport just to watch aircraft fly over. But I would feel pretty stupid if someone parked a plane on my rooftop and my family was killed. But I could see a non-aviation family not even considering that risk. And I surely don't have a solution for this particular airport's location and they fact that the neighborhood developed all around it. Should it close? Should it stay open? I don't know! Definitely thinking about it. Sidney Wakeham
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When searching for our home, we thought we found IT. I happened to go outside at just the right moment and saw a C-141 low and slow on approach to ADW. That was the end of that one.

But I do live under the flight path of a GA airport's straight in; the traffic is 1200feet above our heads. Smaller risk and low noise.
 
ggroves said:
Below VRef, but above VS0 according to specs.
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Totally understand I was just writing what I read from the FDR.


Jaybird180 said:
Reading from another source that the plane was doing 102kts on approach and that the clean stall is 100KIAS. Since the gear was extended, you would think the flaps would be down, but no word yet if they were deployed.
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From the FDR the Flaps were extended.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Reading from another source that the plane was doing 102kts on approach and that the clean stall is 100KIAS.
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Again with stall speeds for the accident airplane. How do you know the weight?

Nauga,
proportionally.
 
So airports are known dangerous places? Go sell that idea they'll close em even faster. As for the rest you are projecting. I get the hatred for the anti-noise people(used to race at Bridgehampton) but that doesn't mean someones death is OK. We don't know if these people were anti-airport, maybe they bought there cause the guy always wanted to be a pilot. If you want to pick a fight Housing vs. Hobby Pilots I know who will win. And anyway if they are public airports the public gets to decide their fate you want airports forever, buy and build them yourself.
SomeTexan said:
If it is a known dangerous road, then you made the choice. If the previous owner died after a car came through the wall, then why should the new owner expect different?

Now, if a drunk drove through your house, and it is not a dangerous road, then it would be the fault of the driver. But do you rip up all the roads in the county over it? You seem to support closing the airport because of one idiots mistake in the air, and a lot of homeowners making bad decisions on the ground.

I've raced my whole life and had to fight track closure due to idiots building houses near a track, them making noise complaints. They knew the track was there, why didn't they build elsewhere? Others bought houses during the off season, then started throwing a fit when the noise starts. Either they didn't care, or their realtor didn't properly inform them. But do they sue the realtor and find a new house? No, being scum they complain about something that was there before them. I look at non-pilots living near airports the same way, idiots and trash out to ruin other people's fun. The only people with any right to complain are people who lived there before the airport, and only if they opposed it from day one.
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nauga said:
Again with stall speeds for the accident airplane. How do you know the weight?

Nauga,
proportionally.
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How's Betty know the weight? Or was the ***** out of line complaining?
Nachos
Close enough in horseshoes and dead hobby pilots.
 
sidneyfw said:
Just, Wondering how safe aircraft of this type really are, to fly single pilot? Anyone remember Thurman Munson?
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The pilot had over 4,500 hours. Munson had a few hundred, and less than 50 in the Citation IIRC.

Munson's decision to do a no flaps approach to impress his former CFI was the cause of the accident, not complexity of the aircraft. He didn't have enough experience with the spool up characteristics of the jet and the aircraft stalled and crashed.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So airports are known dangerous places? Go sell that idea they'll close em even faster. As for the rest you are projecting. I get the hatred for the anti-noise people(used to race at Bridgehampton) but that doesn't mean someones death is OK. We don't know if these people were anti-airport, maybe they bought there cause the guy always wanted to be a pilot. If you want to pick a fight Housing vs. Hobby Pilots I know who will win. And anyway if they are public airports the public gets to decide their fate you want airports forever, buy and build them yourself.
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You keep bringing up this idea of Hobby Pilots when it's just not the case here. GAI is a reliever airport for BWI and as such receives business flights as well as other GA traffic. The pilot is question had all the ratings for commercial airline flying and was flying a aircraft that is well outside the normal definition of a hobby aircraft. This was a tragedy but it's not a hobby flying issue.
 
SomeTexan said:
The adults weren't non-participants when they bought a house in the approach path. Simple as that, they knew it was a possibility. The kids I feel sorry for, the parents, not so much. Now, because they decided to live in line with a runway, they will probably want to punish all local pilots because of this. It's bs. Just like racetracks, idiots move close to them then complain about the noise and traffic. Simple fix is do a little research before you buy a house, and don't expect everyone to drop to their knees because you made a mistake.
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We'll put you in the category of "cold-hearted jerk".

For starters, it's rather presumptuous of you to assume that the surviving family members "will probably want to punish all local pilots because of this." Perhaps you can share the concrete evidence that you have in your possession that the rest of us aren't privy to, and supports your aforementioned half-baked assertion?

Secondly, where exactly have you read that the surviving family members "expect everyone to drop to their knees because you made a mistake?"

Thirdly, in another post, you wrote that "putting yourself and your family in the direct path of the riskiest part of flying is beyond stupid." So please enlighten us all sir - driving a car is much riskier than living in the approach path of an airport - orders of magnitude riskier. I'll go out on a limb and assume that you have at some point in your life driven a car, and in all likelihood, you continue to regularly drive a car. So, by your logic, you must be orders of magnitude beyond stupid, simply because you drive a car.

To say that you don't feel bad for the parents in this case, both living and dead, is pretty cold, and says a lot about you more than anything - so well done on that. What a jerk.
 
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Instead of calling for the shackling of everybody else whose lifestyle doesn't fit the machinations of the safety-entitled majority, the insurance angle could mitigate this one. If you happen to ball up a TBM before owning a Phenom, maybe you shouldn't be insurable in turbine equipment as you attempt to replace. Insane concept I know....:rolleyes: Punish the offender, not the community by virtue of being a minority. This isn't Europe (though we're rapidly heading that way...).
 
ClimbnSink said:
How's Betty know the weight?
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Betty hasn't posted stall speeds. Do you know what angle of attack (AOA) is and how an AOA-based stall warning system functions?

Nauga,
with cheese
 
Doesn't matter what ratings you have, he was an ATP rated hobby pilot. Being rated as a pro and working as a pro are two entirely different things.
jtheune said:
You keep bringing up this idea of Hobby Pilots when it's just not the case here. GAI is a reliever airport for BWI and as such receives business flights as well as other GA traffic. The pilot is question had all the ratings for commercial airline flying and was flying a aircraft that is well outside the normal definition of a hobby aircraft. This was a tragedy but it's not a hobby flying issue.
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SomeTexan said:
I said nothing about intentionally hitting people. I just said that if you live on the approach to an airport you don't have any right to complain if something happens. Airplanes crash, less often than cars, but they do crash. And putting yourself and your family in the direct path of the riskiest part of flying is beyond stupid. I never said everyone we fly over, just those dumb enough to choose to live that close to the end of a runway. Had you possessed or used basic reading skills, you would have noticed that.
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Ahhh... I call BS.

The logical extension of what you are suggesting is that airport approaches need to be kept clear of any and all human habitation beyond whatever is already required. And that is going to end up shutting down more airports because local majorities will prevail over 'wealthy' airplane hobbyists and private aviation users.

Years ago when we moved from Jersey, where airports were closing down at the rate of 1 per month due to real estate pressures, we decided to move into our airpark partly based on the undevelopable approaches over protected watershed areas. Not only has it worked well but our initial plan to move close to Chapel Hill Airport (KIGX) where this accident flight originated, would have been a failure because that airport is in the process of closing down due to real estate pressures. I knew it was doomed when a subdivision suddenly became visible from the runway. You can tell it is a doomed airport from all the open tie down areas, empty hangars and otherwise dead facility in a prime location.
 
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