Correct way to pick up the wing in a stall

gil_mor

gil_mor

Pre-takeoff checklist
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gil_mor
Hi all,
One of the things I like the most when working with a different CFI is the different opinions about things.

Today, we did stalls.
As a student I was thought - pick the low wing with the rudder.

CFI: "Use aileron, otherwise you could enter a spin"
Me: "Adding that rudder is will cause the lowered wing to move fwd, get more lift and raise to normal".
CFI: "On 172's the stall starts on the root of the wing, use ailerons.
Me: "You are the CFI, I do as you say.

What do you guys say?
 
Go back to your first CFI.

gil_mor said:
Hi all,
One of the things I like the most when working with a different CFI is the different opinions about things.

Today, we did stalls.
As a student I was thought - pick the low wing with the rudder.

CFI: "Use aileron, otherwise you could enter a spin"
Me: "Adding that rudder is will cause the lowered wing to move fwd, get more lift and raise to normal".
CFI: "On 172's the stall starts on the root of the wing, use ailerons.
Me: "You are the CFI, I do as you say.

What do you guys say?
Click to expand...
 
gil_mor said:
What do you guys say?
Click to expand...

I guess most of us (including high time CFIIs on this board) are doing it wrong. The others here can explain the physics of why it's better to use the rudder.

I'm almost dieing to hear about his opinion on slipping the 172 with full flaps.:D
 
Did using ailerons put you into a spin?
Reality trumps opinion.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Did using ailerons put you into a spin?
Click to expand...
Using rudders sure put me into a spin (once). Using ailerons never put me into a spin. So...

Mind, I actually agree with the primacy of rudder. However, if Gil is as inept as I am, it may be safer for him to rely on ailerons. This flies in the face of the Internet Forum Wisdom, and if you are a better stick and rudder man you may never believe it, but his instructor may have a point.
 
Ok, found the answer (in the Airplane Flying Handbook)
When the airplane is in a stalled condition, the
wingtips continue to provide some degree of lift, and
the ailerons still have some control effect. During
recovery from a stall, the return of lift begins at the tips
and progresses toward the roots. Thus, the ailerons can
be used to level the wings.
Using the ailerons requires finesse to avoid an
aggravated stall condition. For example, if the right
wing dropped during the stall and excessive aileron
control were applied to the left to raise the wing, the
aileron deflected downward (right wing) would
produce a greater angle of attack (and drag), and
possibly a more complete stall at the tip as the critical
angle of attack is exceeded. The increase in drag
created by the high angle of attack on that wing might
cause the airplane to yaw in that direction. This adverse
yaw could result in a spin unless directional control
was maintained by rudder, and/or the aileron control
sufficiently reduced.
Even though excessive aileron pressure may have been
applied, a spin will not occur if directional (yaw)
control is maintained by timely application of
coordinated rudder pressure. Therefore, it is important
that the rudder be used properly during both the entry
and the recovery from a stall. The primary use of the
rudder in stall recoveries is to counteract any tendency
of the airplane to yaw or slip. The correct recovery
technique would be to decrease the pitch attitude by
applying forward-elevator pressure to break the stall,
advancing the throttle to increase airspeed, and
simultaneously maintaining directional control with
coordinated use of the aileron and rudder
Click to expand...
 
gil_mor said:
Because?
If the ailerons are not stalled yet - why not use them?
Click to expand...
First of all, I should mention that I learned to fly and passed my checkride without using rudder to pick up the wing. It works fine in airplanes we fly (in my case, PA-28 Cherokee with Hershie bar wing). The downside of it was that when I wanted to learn the right way, it was a hell on a stick to beat the muscle memory. I am not sure that I have, in fact, after 150 hours. So, if you do what I did, then you set yourself for a fun experience of unlearning and habit-breaking.

Now, why would you want to form a different habit? Because it works every time, not just when doing stalls in Cherokee at altitude. It works in different airplanes (including the old ones), and it works in the region of reverse command. If you think you'll never encounter the problem, you need to find the thread where Nate posted the pictures of Tiger dragging a wingtip on the runway at KAPA, because in a split-second situation he used aileron instead of rudder.

Of course, your second instructor may disagree, but you asked, I answered.

P.S. Wait a moment, you're already PP and gunning for Commercial? Never mind, just do what you prefer :)
 
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Depends what you're flying.

In something like a 172, the rudder points the nose and the ailerons take care of bank all the way into the stall. Keep the nose from yawing with your feet and you won't have to worry about picking up a wing because it won't drop (unless the plane is bent). In an F-4 Phantom II, much above about 19 units AoA, move the stick laterally at all and you're in for Mr. Toad's wild ride, so keep the stick centered and use rudder for roll control in that regime. In an F-22, the stick and rudder pedals tell the computer what you want the plane to do, and then the computer figures out which control surfaces and maybe even the engine nozzles to move to make that happen.

So, know the plane you're flying and do what's right in that plane.
 
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gil_mor said:
Ok, found the answer (in the Airplane Flying Handbook)
Click to expand...

You beat me to it!
The thing the CFI failed to say was to also use rudder with aileron to stay coordinated.
The rudder-only myth has come up before in other forums.
I suspect some may confuse the spin recovery technique with stall recovery, but am not sure about that
 
It sounds to me like your CFI isn't too familiar with adverse yaw. Now in the planes he's probably flown, it probably isn't that big of a deal, but in some older aircraft (especially) it becomes a lot more of a big deal. I usually make sure that training wheel guys who start out in the Cub get a handle on the difference in adverse yaw from the Skyhawk they've been flying. If you stall, use the rudder to keep the plane coordinated, and use the ailerons WITH the rudder to recover if you dip a wing at the stall.
I'd ask your CFI if he would let you try a "falling leaf" maneuver where he controls the yoke and ailerons and you only use your feet.

Ryan
 
And the advice on using a rudder to pick up a wing was for when the wing was STALLED, not after the recovery. i.e. IN a stall, not in a stall recovery.

If adverse yaw causes the wing drop, then yaw is the correct "tool" to fix it.

It's true that in some airplanes (Cirri and Diamond DA-40s come immediately to mind) the wings are designed so that the tips stall last by a larger margin than in your Pipers and Cessnas. In those particular airplanes you can be stalled and falling (not flying) and still have roll control with ailerons.

But the rudder stops flying last in ALL airplanes, as far as I know. So I'll stick by my advice - if you're stalling an airplane and you get a wing drop, proper use of the rudder will avert a spin entry. Improper use of the aileron will add drag to both wings and worsen the situation.
 
TMetzinger said:
But the rudder stops flying last in ALL airplanes, as far as I know. So I'll stick by my advice - if you're stalling an airplane and you get a wing drop, proper use of the rudder will avert a spin entry. Improper use of the aileron will add drag to both wings and worsen the situation.
Click to expand...

This is correct -- and inculcating this habit will have no ill effects.
 
the first thing to do is recover from the stall. then use whatever controls you want to pick up the wing
 
gil_mor said:
Because?
If the ailerons are not stalled yet - why not use them?
Click to expand...

Because, can you really count on the ailerons not being stalled?

If they are not stalled and if you are gentle with them and if you are in the right airplane, then they work. If.

But what happens when you are in a different airplane, or they are stalled, or...? In that case, when you try to pick up a wing, you cause it to drop further and induce yaw. Neither of which are high on the "spin avoidance" list.

Using rudder to pick up a wing (counter yaw) is not going to put you in a spin. And it will work even if the ailerons are or are not stalled.

Go with what works sometimes if you are lucky, or with what works - period? Your choice.

Oh - and ifen you do manage to get into a spin, trying to level the wings with the yoke is a really bad thing to do in many aircraft (assuming you want to actually want to recover from the spin and not screw it into the ground).
 
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tonycondon said:
the first thing to do is recover from the stall. then use whatever controls you want to pick up the wing
Click to expand...

I think the falling leaf should be required training for all pilots. When I was introduced to the falling leaf by Adam Cope as part of my CFI spin training, I learned more in the 2000 feet of vertical loss in the falling leaf about the interaction between control surface effects, and how the airplane actually flies and stays aerodynamically balanced, than I did in all my private and commercial training combined.

After that exercise, I KNEW that even after the wing stalled and a wing dropped I still had one more ace up my sleeve to regain full control of the airplane - the rudder.

And by teaching what the rudder can do in a stall/spin entry, we can possibly avoid the full spin in the first place. At low altitudes where the stall/spin entry kills, isn't it better to have the conditioned response to stab the rudder opposite the wing drop, while reducing the angle of attack? Could that make a difference in the base-to-final spin scenario?
 
tonycondon said:
the first thing to do is recover from the stall. then use whatever controls you want to pick up the wing
Click to expand...

Yep.

Flew the A36 yesterday, did a full stall to see what it would do (VGs were just installed, so I wanted to see the difference with and without). Dropped a wing, same as before. Nose down, rudder + aileron to make the plane point where I wanted it to.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yep.

Flew the A36 yesterday, did a full stall to see what it would do (VGs were just installed, so I wanted to see the difference with and without). Dropped a wing, same as before. Nose down, rudder + aileron to make the plane point where I wanted it to.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.. I flew an A36 lots -- did plenty of stalls -- never a wing drop (with VGs and tip tanks).

:dunno:
 
Unload the wings to unstall them, first and foremost. You can't enter a spin without a stalled wing, and you can't stall an unloaded wing.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think the falling leaf should be required training for all pilots. When I was introduced to the falling leaf by Adam Cope as part of my CFI spin training, I learned more in the 2000 feet of vertical loss in the falling leaf about the interaction between control surface effects, and how the airplane actually flies and stays aerodynamically balanced, than I did in all my private and commercial training combined.

After that exercise, I KNEW that even after the wing stalled and a wing dropped I still had one more ace up my sleeve to regain full control of the airplane - the rudder.

And by teaching what the rudder can do in a stall/spin entry, we can possibly avoid the full spin in the first place. At low altitudes where the stall/spin entry kills, isn't it better to have the conditioned response to stab the rudder opposite the wing drop, while reducing the angle of attack? Could that make a difference in the base-to-final spin scenario?
Click to expand...

Yes..
 
Ron Levy said:
It's a certification requirement in light planes -- see Part 23 (or the equivalent section of CAR 3). LSA's? :dunno:
Click to expand...

LSA's? E-AB? Accelerated stalls? Stalls from a skid? Mis-rigged? Hail damaged? Ice? Can you really count on it just because it is written on a piece of paper somewhere?

Probably not a big deal though, since stall / spin accidents are so rare....
 
airguy said:
Unload the wings to unstall them, first and foremost. You can't enter a spin without a stalled wing, and you can't stall an unloaded wing.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: First and foremost, unload the wing. Coordinated direction control from there...
 
When it happens you'll understand why they are sometimes described as slippery.

dmccormack said:
Hmmm.. I flew an A36 lots -- did plenty of stalls -- never a wing drop (with VGs and tip tanks).

:dunno:
Click to expand...
 
TMetzinger said:
I think the falling leaf should be required training for all pilots.
Click to expand...
I don't know if I have done this kind of stall or not because nothing I've done has ever been referred to by that name. What is it exactly?

And thank you!
 
Tracey said:
I don't know if I have done this kind of stall or not because nothing I've done has ever been referred to by that name. What is it exactly?

And thank you!
Click to expand...

You pull up to a stall. And, instead of recovering, you keep the yoke/stick back against the stop and just hold the wings level as you stay in the stall.
 
dmccormack said:
Hmmm.. I flew an A36 lots -- did plenty of stalls -- never a wing drop (with VGs and tip tanks).

:dunno:
Click to expand...

I'll let a stall progress fully when I want to see what exactly the plane is going to do. Not sure at what point you're recovering.

What may also impact things slightly is this Bonanza has the radar pod installed on the right wing.
 
The falling leaf is a manuever where the airplane is taken up to a good altitude (we did them at 6000), the power is reduced to idle, the nose is lifted, and the wing stalls. The stick/yoke is held back full aft. At some point (and if it doesn't happen naturally, you add a little rudder to make it happen) you'll have a wing drop. You immediately push opposite rudder and that raises the wing, but the other wing will then drop. Push opposite rudder again to fix it. If you get to the point where the oscillations back and forth are too much (they are RAPID, and the start of a spin entry), reduce the back pressure (lower the nose, reduce the angle of attack) and you're flying again.

With a little practice you can be rocking from side to side under complete control for thousands of feet and then just fly away. And if you've ever seen a leaf fall, well that's what your airplane looks like.

On youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOPsQn2Mksg


The key lessons learned by doing this:
  • The rudder is still effective even when the main wing is stalled.
  • You can control roll with rudder even when all the ailerons can produce is drag.
  • If you have a roll upset, rudder is as important as aileron in fixing it.
  • Roll affects yaw and vice versa.
  • If you can stop the spin entry before you go past 90 degrees by getting on opposite rudder when the wing drops then as you relax the back pressure you'll already be well on your way to wings-level.
You can also gain this knowledge (though not as graphically) in slow flight. At altitude (3000 AGL minimum please) trim for slow flight so that the airplane is straight and level and the stall warning is just barely coming on. Take your hand off the yoke or stick. Gently press rudder in one direction or another, and see how the roll comes in. Gently press opposite rudder to cancel the roll and ease it out as you come back to wings level.

In cruise, try flying with just the rudder and the trim wheel. Not only will you get the kinesthetic knowledge about the coupling between roll and yaw, you'll be well trained if you ever have a problem with the elevator or ailerons, because you'll know (and more importantly, BELIEVE) that you can control the airplane with rudder and the trim tab.

Edit: Tracey, this is NOT something you go out and practice by yourself. I expect your grizzly flight instructor who runs your school would love to take you up in the Cub or other suitable airplane for a demo, though.
 
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TMetzinger said:
Edit: Tracey, this is NOT something you go out and practice by yourself. I expect your grizzly flight instructor who runs your school would love to take you up in the Cub or other suitable airplane for a demo, though.
Click to expand...
Why not? Is this like when my CFI didn't want me practicing power on stalls solo? I still don't do them solo because of the inculcated fear of them.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why not? Is this like when my CFI didn't want me practicing power on stalls solo? I still don't do them solo because of the inculcated fear of them.
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Because at her relatively low level of experience, there is more risk associated with you practicing them solo than benefit. Doubly so when the real purpose is not only to drill in recovery procedures, but also to recognize that things are going wrong and correct them before they get worse. It's the same reason why it's not recommended to do OEI landings with one engine actually feathered - you instead run it at simulated feather.

I didn't like doing power-on stalls solo until I had several hundred hours of experience, well after getting my private.
 
TMetzinger said:
In cruise, try flying with just the rudder and the trim wheel. Not only will you get the kinesthetic knowledge about the coupling between roll and yaw, you'll be well trained if you ever have a problem with the elevator or ailerons, because you'll know (and more importantly, BELIEVE) that you can control the airplane with rudder and the trim tab.
Click to expand...
My instructor called this the poor man's autopilot. He taught me this as a way to have both hands available for chart handling, whatever. Just keep the plane level with your feet.

I have used this technique often over the years.... when Otto is inop it does work well!

-Skip
 
Nothing wrong with practicing a maneuver like a falling leaf or a power-on stall after you have learned and practiced it with your instructor and s/he has cleared you to practice it solo.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'll let a stall progress fully when I want to see what exactly the plane is going to do. Not sure at what point you're recovering.

What may also impact things slightly is this Bonanza has the radar pod installed on the right wing.
Click to expand...

Yep -- full break straight ahead and in turns. As long as ball was centered -- straight ahead.

Radar pod certainly would cause drag on one side.. did it dip in that direction?
 
Ron Levy said:
Nothing wrong with practicing a maneuver like a falling leaf or a power-on stall after you have learned and practiced it with your instructor and s/he has cleared you to practice it solo.
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EXACTLY.

I didn't want Tracey (or anyone else) to decide that this was something they could try out without instruction first.
 
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