Confidence is increased but still struggling with round out

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rtbayne01072

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flyboy72
So today for the first time in a few weeks I was able to take to the skies out of KGMU to build some more time for my PPL. The last time I went up me and my CFI just worked in the traffic pattern doing touch and goes. We basically did the same thing today. Got about 16 landings in and about hour and half of flight time.

I must say that my confidence his really starting to build after today. Everything as far a flying the traffic pattern, setting the flaps during approach and using the rudders, and adjusting for crosswind (crabbing) is starting to become automatic to me.

The biggest thing I'm still struggling with is the round out on my landings. I fight instructor said I still need to hold a little bit more back pressure when I'm performing my round-out on landing. I can tell hit as well by how hard we touch down sometimes :mad2:. Other times I would start the round out too early. There was a few on a few I didn't even reduce power.

Today was also the first time my CFI let me handle the radio communications. At first I was kinda nervous I would say the wrong thing, or not give tower enough info as to what I was wanting to do but my CFI helped for the most part. Tower was also very friendly and patient as well which helped alot My CFI said we would do some ground school on communications but today he kinda threw me into it. Is there any resources out there I could use to maybe read up on to understand ATC lingo? I've been able to pick up on some stuff by listing to my flight instructor and liveATC but something to read up on would be nice as well.

Other then that it was great to be back up in the air again today, if money and time permits hope to go again in a week or so.
 
AIM chapter 4-2

Make sure you're not going to fast on final. I chant to myself " hold it off, hold it off, hold it off"
 
Yup, many students fly the approach too fast. In a 172 with two up front, 60 KIAS seems to work nice.

You should fly level just above the runway until the nose is in a takeoff position. Keeping it level will require pulling back on the yoke as you slow down. But think of it as keeping it level, not pulling the yoke. Do not release back pressure when the stall warning goes off; just don't add any more and the airplane will sink to the runway.

Edit: Kenny is right. Bob's book is very good. But the thing I've found that kills mic fright quickly and decisively is a tower tour. At a smaller airport, you can ask Ground. They may tell you to come right up.
 
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16 landings is a lot, I'd have been tired after that lesson! The most I ever did at one time is 10.

When I first started I would land pretty flat, sounds like you might be too. What helped me was something I read on here: try to keep the plane from landing. The closer you feel it get to the ground, pull back even more, like you're trying to climb (you won't). Eventually, you'll run out of airspeed and land! Of course, you do have to remember to reduce power. ;)

As far as learning the lingo, Bob Gardner's (who's here on PoA!) Say Again, Please: Guide to Radio Communications. It is an excellent read and will answer most, if not all, of your communications questions.
 
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rtbayne01072 said:
The biggest thing I'm still struggling with is the round out on my landings. I fight instructor said I still need to hold a little bit more back pressure when I'm performing my round-out on landing. I can tell hit as well by how hard we touch down sometimes :mad2:. Other times I would start the round out too early. There was a few on a few I didn't even reduce power.
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Usually one of two things is going on:

1) The student sees the need to level off in ground effect but is still not sure how much control movement it will take.

Or

2) The student simply can't judge the height of the plane well enough yet to see the need for control input.

If you think the problem is primarily #1, it will just take time and practice.

If you think the problem is primarily #2, you may just need to adjust where you're looking.

If you have Airplane Flying Handbook, go to the chapter on landing, specifically the part about where to look. It's available online as a pdf for free if you don't already have it.
 
Being a student stuck in the EXACT same place you are I can offer no advice...only support that you aren't the only one.

Each landing I'm getting better and better incrementally and you will too. Eventually it'll "just happen" or so I'm told.
 
I don't like the term "round out" because, as MAKG says, you are really transitioning from a descent to a period of level flight. Rod Machado has the key:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

When you are viewing that video, note the number of other relevant YouTube videos on the right side.

Bob Gardner
 
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bobmrg said:
I don't like the term "round out" because, as MAKG says, you are really transitioning from a descent to a period of level flight.
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Round-out is the period of getting the power off and raising the nose to reduce speed and descent rate while still well off the surface. My Canadian flight training manual calls for that to happen while still 15 to 30 feet up. The flare is the final pull on the yoke to arrest the descent and touch down at minimum speed.

Many pilots don't do a round-out. They wait until they're in ground effect and pull the nose up abruptly and balloon, or they flare and float forever, bleeding off all that extra speed in ground effect where the drag is low, or they touch down at high speed and therefore at a really flat attitude and risk wheelbarrowing or porpoising.

Dan
 
KennyC said:
16 landings is a lot, I'd have been tired after that lesson! The most I ever did at one time is 10.

When I first started I would land pretty flat, sounds like you might be too. What helped me was something I read on here: try to keep the plane from landing. The closer you feel it get to the ground, pull back even more, like you're trying to climb (you won't). Eventually, you'll run out of airspeed and land! Of course, you do have to remember to reduce power. ;)

As far as learning the lingo, Bob Gardner's (who's here on PoA!) Say Again, Please: Guide to Radio Communications. It is an excellent read and will answer most, if not all, of your communications questions.
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Yeah I actually wasn't too tired after this lesson. The one before we only did 12 landings and I was exhausted; grant it we had a nasty crosswind coming in from the northeast.

But Yeah landing flat is a lot of it, sometimes I would take power out to soon causing the plane to hit pretty hard on all 3 wheels. On my last few they were ok but I felt like I was holding the nose of the plane way too high I guess I just have to get a feel for it.

And thanks for the book referral, I will definitely have to check that out.
 
warthog1984 said:
Q: What are you flying and how fast are you on final and when crossing the fence?
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Flying only a Cessna 152, probably keeping it around 65 to 70 KTS. or what ever my flight instructor tells to me to do. I had to adjust a lot yesterday we had an on and off crosswind out of the east and my approaches weren't the most stable. Its a working progress.
 
rtbayne01072 said:
But Yeah landing flat is a lot of it, sometimes I would take power out to soon causing the plane to hit pretty hard on all 3 wheels.
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Ideally, I want my students at idle by 100' or so.

The goal is to simplify the roundout and landing process by having one less thing to mess with.

Where do you typically "take power out"?
 
rtbayne01072 said:
Flying only a Cessna 152, probably keeping it around 65 to 70 KTS. or what ever my flight instructor tells to me to do. I had to adjust a lot yesterday we had an on and off crosswind out of the east and my approaches weren't the most stable. Its a working progress.
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Do you have a newer CFI by any chance? The over-the-fence speed in a 152 is 54KTS. If you are on final any faster than 60KTS (still air, flaps 20-30), you are going to float, and float, and float.
 
warthog1984 said:
Do you have a newer CFI by any chance? The over-the-fence speed in a 152 is 54KTS. If you are on final any faster than 60KTS (still air, flaps 20-30), you are going to float, and float, and float.
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My CFI has told me to wait until I'am over the numbers of the runway before I start reducing power. And I'm pretty sure he has only been instructing for only a year or so now.
 
rtbayne01072 said:
My CFI has told me to wait until I'am over the numbers of the runway before I start reducing power. And I'm pretty sure he has only been instructing for only a year or so now.
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You really need to do it his way.

But that is NOT my way.

I think that power change may be the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

It's hard enough to juggle 3 balls:

1) Level off over the runway by increasing pitch...

2) Stay on the centerline with aileron, and...

3) Keep the nose straight with rudder.

Add a fourth, "Make a pitch change to compensate for the last minute reduction in power" and a student can be totally overloaded.

Open invitation - come up to Copperhill and I can demonstrate what works for me. I am not currently an instructor, and do not wish to get between you and yours. But I'll snap at any excuse to go flying, and if it can help with your mental image, I'd be happy to help.


edited to add: I went to the Airplane Flying Handbook to see what it said:

"Since power normally is reduced to idle during the roundout, the airspeed will also gradually decrease. This will cause lift to decrease again, and it must be controlled by raising the nose and further increasing the angle of attack."

On the one hand, it validates your instructor's technique. On the other hand, it pretty much points to a task that would not be there if the power was already at idle.

I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat!
 
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What really, really helped me at that stage was not landing...talk to your CFI about doing some very low mca passes, like 6" above the runway, full flaps and stall horn blaring. Very shortly you will get the sight picture down pat.
 
I always had to be reminded by my CFI to 'hold it off'. Keep at it!
 
Chip Sylverne said:
What really, really helped me at that stage was not landing...talk to your CFI about doing some very low mca passes, like 6" above the runway, full flaps and stall horn blaring. Very shortly you will get the sight picture down pat.
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Yes! These low approaches helped me to get the sight picture down.
 
rtbayne01072 said:
Flying only a Cessna 152, probably keeping it around 65 to 70 KTS. or what ever my flight instructor tells to me to do. I had to adjust a lot yesterday we had an on and off crosswind out of the east and my approaches weren't the most stable. Its a working progress.
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You've got to get your speed nailed. My experience is in 172s, but those speeds are too fast even for that plane. Unfortunately, it may take initiative by you to start a conversation about focus on airspeed. I urge you to sit down with your instructor, pull out the POH, and look at the speeds together. If it gives a range for final approach speed, you may want to use the lower value.
 
rtbayne01072 said:
My CFI has told me to wait until I'am over the numbers of the runway before I start reducing power. And I'm pretty sure he has only been instructing for only a year or so now.
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My $0.02:

I've seen a lot of what you are describing in CFIs who are afraid of max performance and newer students. Although you can land the plane like that, it is the aviation equivalent of driving down a street at 60mph, hitting the brakes, and J-turning into a parallel parking spot- too much going on, and way too twitchy.

The plane is perfectly comfortable coming down at the manufacturer-suggested speed, which is actually above the FAA 1.3*Vso standard. You might talk to your CFI about it and ask to do a landing or two at the book speed.
 
rtbayne01072 said:
Flying only a Cessna 152, probably keeping it around 65 to 70 KTS. or what ever my flight instructor tells to me to do. I had to adjust a lot yesterday we had an on and off crosswind out of the east and my approaches weren't the most stable. Its a working progress.
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That's way too fast and I suspect the root of your problem.
 
For the radio portion, try Bob Gardner's excellent book "Say Again, Please." Try Amazon. Thanks, Bob! Very clear.
 
The key to the round out is you are not trying to land the plane yet. You are just leveling it out close to the ground. The plane is not ready to land yet( especially if you are coming in at 70kts-- fast for sure.) Level the plane out, wait for the plane to lose some speed, which will happen quickly, and then just raise the nose to approximately the same angle as you climb with by gradually pulling back. Think of this stage as guaranteeing the tail wheel hits first. If you flare to high you will sink for longer and have a firmer touch down but you won't balloon unless you have too much power. There is nothing wrong with a firmer touch down and, it may, in fact be beneficial( short field landing.). Many bad things can come from floating halfway down the runway though.
 
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I'm taking my PPL checkride this week. I have two pieces of advice for you to improve your landings:

- as you round out, hold your altitude in ground effect.
- As you begin to lose speed, keep your nose wheel exactly where it is by pulling back on the elevator. This should let you gently settle onto the runway.

Keep at it! I think I have over 180 landings at this point, so you have time!
 
MAKG1 said:
Yup. I like to approach at 55 knots in a 152.

70 knots is fast for a heavy 182.
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Yes I think 55 knots should be about right in a 152. The airspeed indicator in my old 170 reads in miles per hour and I like to come "over the fence" at 65 mph which converts to just over 56 knots.
 
I was first doing the "65mph" on short final in the 150. But when I did the math... Stall CAS x 1.3, then convert to IAS, I get 60mph, not 65. So I tried 60mph on short final. Wow. Much less float, much harder to balloon. All in all a much "firmer" landing.

It would probably be even more accurate to go out in the practice area to test the real stall speed. Determine the real world stall IAS with your typical loading. It will probably be 2-5 kts above or below the book number. Look in the POH and convert that IAS to CAS. Multiply that CAS by 1.3. Convert that result back to IAS. That's your new vREF speed. A few kts in either direction may not seem like much, but it is.
 
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rtbayne01072 said:
Flying only a Cessna 152, probably keeping it around 65 to 70 KTS. or what ever my flight instructor tells to me to do. I had to adjust a lot yesterday we had an on and off crosswind out of the east and my approaches weren't the most stable. Its a working progress.
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65- 70 KTS is high like others have mentioned here. During my check ride 2 weeks back I was landing at 62 and my Examiner said that it is way fast and that I need to land it with a slight stall warning sound when about to touch down. I was able to do this after the "fast" landing I did but the stall warning should be heard if you are 10-15 feet from touch-down. Sometimes instead of the usual 1700 RPM, you can watch and adjust your RPM to 1500-1600 as well, this can help reduce your speed as well but make sure you are not too slow on an approach.
 
I had trouble learning to land many years ago and will hopefully be reacquiring that skill soon. What I did was I found a quiet area at home, sat in a chair, and went through all the motions, moving my hands to actuate controls and talking through speeds while imagining sight pictures in my mind, this helped me immensely without the pressure of actually having to do it. Give it a try. Finally, trust your instructor. Listen to his coaching and do what he says.... I realized that I was not doing this and it was slowing me down, it's not that I didn't trust him, but I was letting my own apprehension get in the way. Once I relaxed and convinced myself to follow his instructions to a T things got much better that lesson and I soloed the next.

Good luck, you'll figure it out.
 
PaulS said:
I had trouble learning to land many years ago and will hopefully be reacquiring that skill soon. What I did was I found a quiet area at home, sat in a chair, and went through all the motions, moving my hands to actuate controls and talking through speeds while imagining sight pictures in my mind.
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I'm sorry but I'm picturing walking to the doorway and seeing you sitting in the chair making airplane noises and holding imaginary controls. :rofl:
 
Interesting how all the CFIs instruct differently.

I was taught to go engine idle at parallel to the end of the runway on downwind, and to manage the airspeed with attitude on base/final. First with a Cub, then a 172. 60ish seems to work well for the 172, and its all about managing the airspeed with attitude to slow it down on final.

Also, a slight touch of power right before touch down can help make a very smooth landing out of one where the sink rate is too high. Not much, just up to 1000rpms for a second or three.

I also had a problem judging the distance to the ground. In the Cub, I cheated by looking out the open door at the wheel. Look down the runway, look up close. Keep on switching back and forth to keep perspective. In the 172, can't cheat like that, but I still chance my point of focus constantly, which helps me judge the distance to the ground. Keep repeating "Look down the runway, look up close" in your head on final.
 
MAKG1 said:
And what's wrong with that?

Doesn't everyone?
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I generally only do it while I'm driving. Especially if I have iFly up on my phone and it starts blaring TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP!! I keep pulling back on the steering wheel but it doesn't go up.


UngaWunga said:
I was taught to go engine idle at parallel to the end of the runway on downwind, and to manage the airspeed with attitude on base/final. First with a Cub, then a 172. 60ish seems to work well for the 172, and its all about managing the airspeed with attitude to slow it down on final.
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This is something I want to do more often. You're probably the best prepared for an engine out at any time for making all your approaches that way.

But, does this **** off towers that weren't expecting a short approach?
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I generally only do it while I'm driving. Especially if I have iFly up on my phone and it starts blaring TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP!! I keep pulling back on the steering wheel but it doesn't go up.



This is something I want to do more often. You're probably the best prepared for an engine out at any time for making all your approaches that way.

But, does this **** off towers that weren't expecting a short approach?
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I trained at a non-towered airport. But even with towered airports, we followed a normal pattern procedure and distances. Its not a short approach. There's no need for super wide patterns unless for traffic or instructed by the tower. Gives you better visibility of the runway, can see the wind sock, can see other planes in the pattern, etc... 1000'AGL is plenty of altitude for a good glide distance.

My opinion, of course. I feel weird when towered airports allow me to either fly straight in or come in directly from a left base. Just doesn't feel right.
 
Think of the landing a 3 step process. The approach attitude, the level off, then the flare. As you approach the runway, gradually start pulling back to stop the decent and put the airplane so it's flying straight and level down the runway as you develop a sight picture you will know when you are close to the runway. While you are in the straight and level flight a few feet over the runway use that time to let the airplane slow down and gradually start pulling back and flaring the airplane, just enough to set it down on the main gear but not to much to make it gain altitude. It takes practice, keep working at it and you will get the hang of it! Good luck!:D
 
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