Complex training

StanN45

StanN45

Pre-takeoff checklist
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StanN45
I took my first flight working towards my complex endorsement. Just a few more things to put in to the checklists and GUMPS really starts getting important. The arrow is a really nice plane to fly. I don't think I'd trade my 182 for it though.
 
Enjoy getting the endorsement. I love the gear design in the arrow. Very stable aircraft too, but you probably have that in your 182 as well.
Are you doing this for your commercial license or just to do it?
 
I confirm gear down on downwind, as the thump when it locks under my seat is very noticeable. The green light comes on then, too. Check the switch and lights again on base, and the mechanical indicator on the floor on final, just to make sure. Anyone can miss one check; some people can miss two checks; doing it a third time makes it very difficult to put the belly on the pavement.

Also, my plane won't slow down on the proper glide slope with the gear up, I'll either be fast or high, unless I'm both. Find out how your plane does around the pattern or on an instrument approach with the flaps up, just remember to not land!
 
StanN45 said:
... The arrow is a really nice plane to fly. I don't think I'd trade my 182 for it though.
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Be careful...you don't want to get this crowd started on that question. :rolleyes: :D
 
On Arrows (and all SE Pipers I think) make sure the panel light rheostat is turned to bright for day time flying. There's been cases where folks didn't think the gear was down because the gear lights 'didn't illuminate'. Often happens after a night flight and that pilot didn't 'brighten' them back up.
 
Lowering the gear in an Arrow is like putting a rudder in the water on a boat. Don't tell my Cherokee this but I actually like the flight characteristics of the Arrow a lot better. I never noticed a thump for the gear though.

<---- complex endorsement achieved last year
 
Timbeck2 said:
Lowering the gear in an Arrow is like putting a rudder in the water on a boat. Don't tell my Cherokee this but I actually like the flight characteristics of the Arrow a lot better. I never noticed a thump for the gear though.

<---- complex endorsement achieved last year
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I know in our Arrow I can feel when the nose gears locks down through the rudder pedals. Maybe that's what the OP ment?
 
mscard88 said:
On Arrows (and all SE Pipers I think) make sure the panel light rheostat is turned to bright for day time flying. There's been cases where folks didn't think the gear was down because the gear lights 'didn't illuminate'. Often happens after a night flight and that pilot didn't 'brighten' them back up.
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In the Seminole the dimmer is tied to the nav lights. A great many people have turned on the nav lights and thought they had a gear failure at the next extension. :)
 
mscard88 said:
On Arrows (and all SE Pipers I think) make sure the panel light rheostat is turned to bright for day time flying. There's been cases where folks didn't think the gear was down because the gear lights 'didn't illuminate'. Often happens after a night flight and that pilot didn't 'brighten' them back up.
Click to expand...

Not quite. Make sure the panel light switch/rheostat is turned OFF. When the panel light switch is turned on, a fixed resistor is switched in-line with the gear lights dimming them. They do not get brighter as the rheostat is turned up. The rheostat only controls the panel lighting. You must turn the rheostat all the way down and keep turning until the switch clicks, which turns off the panel lights, and bypasses the resistor to the gear lights, so they go bright again.

And on the Arrow (or my Arrow, at least), the NAV lights are switched on by the left rheostat, which also controls the radio light intensity. The right rheostat controls the panel lights, and switches the resistor to the gear lights.
 
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The retractable Cessna gear can definitely be felt because the gear is attached to the fuselage floor right behind the seats (below the rear seat) vs gear swinging out of the wings.
I love the thump I feel whenever the wheels come down or up! :D

Enjoy your training and don't forget the checklist!
 
pburger said:
Not quite. Make sure the panel light switch/rheostat is turned OFF. When the panel light switch is turned on, a fixed resistor is switched in-line with the gear lights dimming them. They do not get brighter as the rheostat is turned up. The rheostat only controls the panel lighting. You must turn the rheostat all the way down and keep turning until the switch clicks, which turns off the panel lights, and bypasses the resistor to the gear lights, so they go bright again.

And on the Arrow (or my Arrow, at least), the NAV lights are switched on by the left rheostat, which also controls the radio light intensity. The right rheostat controls the panel lights, and switches the resistor to the gear lights.
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Thanks, been awhile since I've flown a Lance or Arrow. Or Seminole for that matter. Question though. If you turn off the panel lights, and you're flying at night, how's that work? I understand what you're saying for day time.

edit: I think it was the day time thing now that I've thought about it. Folks had the panel lights on which lessens the brightness of gear lights and thought they had a gear problem.
 
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I've been fooled by the gear light on the Cardinal. You twist the lens to dim/brighten.
 
denverpilot said:
In the Seminole the dimmer is tied to the nav lights. A great many people have turned on the nav lights and thought they had a gear failure at the next extension. :)
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Yep, the Arrow that I'm flying, you turn on the Nav lights and the gear lights go out. Craziest thing I've seen in a while.
 
I had another flight today. Emergency procedures, slow flight, power on/off stalls, pattern work. It was a good morning! The plane definitely seemed to slow down a little bit for me today. Things weren't happening quite so fast. Next time, power off 180's, emergency descents, steep turns and more T/O and landings. Throw in a short X-C and I should have my sign off.
 
Ravioli said:
I've been fooled by the gear light on the Cardinal. You twist the lens to dim/brighten.
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Just don't twist it too much, or it will come off in your hand. The bulb will then drop on the floor.

At least with a Cardinal, you can look out the window and SEE if the gear is down. Some even have wing mirrors so you can see all three wheels.
 
Yup, I've got the mirror, which is fun because if I have a passenger I have to contort myself to see around them to the nose wheel. Noobs always think it's odd when I'm searching for the wheel :)
 
farmerbrake said:
Enjoy getting the endorsement. I love the gear design in the arrow. Very stable aircraft too, but you probably have that in your 182 as well.
Are you doing this for your commercial license or just to do it?
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Right now, I'm getting it just to have it. But, I may eventually get my commercial.
 
MAKG1 said:
Just don't twist it too much, or it will come off in your hand. The bulb will then drop on the floor.
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I've run into a few people who didn't know those things come off on purpose so you can just swap them to see if the bulb went bad, instead of turning it into a drama filled emergency declaration...

"If you don't get a nosewheel light, what will you do?"

"Turn the nav lights off and check the dimmer."

"Very good. Now what if you still only have the two main gear..."

"Declare an emergency and..."

"Think there's a step you might have missed that would help you out here... something to do with the bulb itself?"

:)
 
farmerbrake said:
I know in our Arrow I can feel when the nose gears locks down through the rudder pedals. Maybe that's what the OP ment?
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No, the mechanical linkage connecting the gear on my Mooney is right under the front seats. One little electric motor and a four bar linkage, so all the gear move together unless something big and strong breaks. So only one green light to look for. The "Up" thump is mor pronounced, as the wheel well is in the wing root just a few inches outboard of the fuselage.
 
denverpilot said:
I've run into a few people who didn't know those things come off on purpose so you can just swap them to see if the bulb went bad, instead of turning it into a drama filled emergency declaration...

"If you don't get a nosewheel light, what will you do?"

"Turn the nav lights off and check the dimmer."

"Very good. Now what if you still only have the two main gear..."

"Declare an emergency and..."

"Think there's a step you might have missed that would help you out here... something to do with the bulb itself?"

:)
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Cardinal RGs only have one gear down and one gear up light. You will never have two green.
 
MAKG1 said:
Cardinal RGs only have one gear down and one gear up light. You will never have two green.
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Beat me to it. :( But his principle is correct. Push to test, check the dimmer, switch the bulb, look in the mirror again, pull the red handle (okay, no)
 
denverpilot said:
T'is true, but they're still swappable. ;)
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In principle. In practice, one of the bulbs is going on the floor. It's rather difficult to do in flight.

In a Cardinal, you can SEE if the gear is down, especially if you have a wing mirror. When in doubt, do a low pass by the tower (or someone on the ground) and have them look. Cessna gear that is not locked down looks nowhere near correct.
 
Ravioli said:
I've been fooled by the gear light on the Cardinal. You twist the lens to dim/brighten.
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Yes, easy to get fooled.

FWIW, I do not need to dim the gear lights at night. They are out of sight for me, the yoke is in the way and the lights are not bright enough to blind me under such high viewing angle either.
 
StanN45 said:
I took my first flight working towards my complex endorsement. Just a few more things to put in to the checklists and GUMPS really starts getting important. The arrow is a really nice plane to fly. I don't think I'd trade my 182 for it though.
Click to expand...

I got my complex endorsement in an Arrow (and HP in a C-182P). I've got over 70 hours in the Arrow. Club sold it and I don't miss it a bit. 3 hours and my knees were shot. Others won't have that problem.

mscard88 said:
On Arrows (and all SE Pipers I think) make sure the panel light rheostat is turned to bright for day time flying. There's been cases where folks didn't think the gear was down because the gear lights 'didn't illuminate'. Often happens after a night flight and that pilot didn't 'brighten' them back up.
Click to expand...

StanN45 said:
Yep, the Arrow that I'm flying, you turn on the Nav lights and the gear lights go out. Craziest thing I've seen in a while.
Click to expand...

And we had a club member who was a CFI who was signing me off again in the Arrow (insurance said that if you didn't log at least 3 hours in a 180 day period, you needed a new sign off) who did that every time I wasn't looking. I caught it every time. Slapped her hand the last time I saw her reaching for it out of the corner of my eye. She laughed.

Learn your emergency procedures. Have the checklist ready. On one of my flights working on the complex the CFI called for slow flight. I reduced power, selected gear down and dropped the flaps. As the plane slowed we looked at each other and asked if either had felt the gear go down in the rudders (you can feel it). We hadn't. The switch was in the down position, but the gear was still up (no green lights). Dug out the checklist, turned to the section detailing what to do if the gear wouldn't drop and on the first step found a 5 amp breaker popped. Pushed it in and the gear went down. Flew home with the gear down, let the A&P figure out what happened. Needless to say, nothing was found and I never had the problem again. But, better to fly home with the gear down than to not be able to drop it when landing.

Another thing, with the older Arrows with the Hershey Bar wing - they have what my CFI called a "safe mode" glide. In that they glide like a safe. If you are used to how far you can glide in your 182, don't count on it in the Arrow. When you pull back the power that thing is coming down NOW. Downwind at 1000 AGL, pull power to idle at the numbers. Turn for the runway immediately, drop the gear on short final and you'll make it. Drop the gear any earlier, all bets are off. Delay your turn and the same thing. The good side of this is that I never bounced a landing in the Arrow. When the mains touched down it was finished flying. I can't say the same in a 172 or 182. :)

This also is the only plane where a CFI covered the ASI and said to land it. Good practice. You can do it.

Have fun!
 
StanN45 said:
Yep, the Arrow that I'm flying, you turn on the Nav lights and the gear lights go out. Craziest thing I've seen in a while.
Click to expand...
They don't go out, they just get dim, but in daylight it does look like they're off. The light assembly also pops out so you can swap lamps to check if you just have a bad indicator light (it happens).

On a recent flight the left main in an Arrow didn't come on but a quick technical tap lit it up as it was just loose. When training for my endorsement my CFI was walking my through the procedure for swapping lamps and of course when I went to pull the thing out the lamp flew out of my hand. On the ground it felt like we practically had to take half cockpit apart till we found the darn thing hiding under a seat :eek:
 
rocketflyer84 said:
had to take half cockpit apart till we found the darn thing hiding under a seat :eek:
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You can lose an iPad UNDER the back seat of a Seminole where there's about a half inch gap between the seat and the floor. Ask me how I know. Hahaha.
 
I got a wheel, you got a wheel, all god's children got a wheel.
 
Complex endorsement complete. A nice ride up to Stearman Field (1K1) for a good lunch and a little tail wind on the way home. It's been a good day!cfss.JPG 012617a.JPG 012617b.JPG 012617c.JPG 012617d.JPG 012617e.JPG
 
That is the chicken fried steak sandwich. And, it was really good. My buddy had one of their burgers and it looked just as good, maybe better. If you ever get over towards Wichita Kansas, it's worth the stop.
 
StanN45 said:
That is the chicken fried steak sandwich. And, it was really good. My buddy had one of their burgers and it looked just as good, maybe better. If you ever get over towards Wichita Kansas, it's worth the stop.
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LOL I still would've ate it!
 
Congrats! How many hours did you spend in the plane for the endorsement?
 
I did 6.1 hours in the plane.....
 
Nice! I try to fly in complex aircraft as much as I can. There are only two near me so my choices are extremely limited.

Going up on 2/4 for my high performance in a 182T.
 
Hank S said:
Also, my plane won't slow down on the proper glide slope with the gear up, I'll either be fast or high, unless I'm both. Find out how your plane does around the pattern or on an instrument approach with the flaps up, just remember to not land!
Click to expand...

Yeah, it amazes me that people put Mooneys in on the belly, you'd have to be flying one really shallow approach to not be waaaay fast on final.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Yeah, it amazes me that people put Mooneys in on the belly, you'd have to be flying one really shallow approach to not be waaaay fast on final.
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Ditto...never flown a Mooney, but in the Arrow I can definitely tell when the gear is up vs down.
 
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