Complex aircraft required for commercial?

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Boss1714

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Boss1714
After reading part 61.45 and 61.129 all I understand is that the commercial requirements in 2012 is 10 hours of training in a complex. Does this mean you can take a checkride in a fixed gear airplane as long as the training requirements are met?
 
No.

You can do the checkride in two planes. The maneuvers in a fixed gear and one lap around the pattern to check off 'complex operations'.
 
Boss1714 said:
....but the current PTS do not require demonstration of a retractable gear landing. Only "if applicable" for all maneuvers.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-12C.pdf
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It is on page 9:

Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test
The commercial pilot—airplane applicant is required by 14 CFR
section 61.45 to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use
during the practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft
must:
1. be of U.S., foreign, or military registry of the same category,
class, and type, if applicable, for the certificate and/or rating
for which the applicant is applying;
2. have fully functioning dual controls, except as provided for
in 14 CFR section 61.45(c) and (e);
3. be capable of performing all Areas of Operation appropriate
to the rating sought and have no operating limitations which
prohibit its use in any of the Areas of Operation required for
the practical test; and
4. be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant, unless
the applicant currently holds a commercial pilot certificate
with a single-engine or multiengine class rating as
appropriate, for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and
appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is
one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable
propeller or turbine-powered. A complex seaplane is one
having flaps and controllable propeller.
 
I noticed that, but isnt page 9 referring to 14 CFR 61.45? #s 1, 2, & 3 are all referred to in 61.45, but #4 is not. That's why I'm confused.
 
It may not be explicitly stated in the regulation, but demonstration of complex operations is a PTS requirement, so 61.45(b)(1)(i) makes a complex aircraft regulatorily required.
 
Boss1714 said:
I noticed that, but isnt page 9 referring to 14 CFR 61.45? #s 1, 2, & 3 are all referred to in 61.45, but #4 is not. That's why I'm confused.
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The PTS says its required, don't know whether I want to start arguing minutiae with the FAA.

Diamond has a waiver for the DA42 as it has no prop control. There is a 'gear simlator' for the DA40,( a landing gear switch wired to the flaps and a horn) but I don't believe it is used in the US.
 
weilke said:
The PTS says its required, don't know whether I want to start arguing minutiae with the FAA.
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As it says in 61.45(b)(1)(i):
(b) Required equipment (other than controls).
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, an aircraft used for a practical test must have--
(i) The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test;
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Since the PTS requires a complex plane for the Takeoff and Landing, and Emergency Procedures Areas, that makes a complex airplane a regulatory requirement.

Diamond has a waiver for the DA42 as it has no prop control.
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Actually, what they have is an "exemption," not a "waiver," but that's a difference important only to the lawyers.

There is a 'gear simlator' for the DA40,( a landing gear switch wired to the flaps and a horn) but I don't believe it is used in the US.
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About ten years ago, Diamond proposed a gear-simulating DA40 to the FAA for use as a complex trainer and commercial/CFI practical test platform. It included a gear handle hooked to a small drag brake to simulate the drag and pitch changes when the gear is lowered, along with a gear warning horn. One important advantage would be that it would remain insured as a fixed gear airplane -- a big money-saving point for training providers. The FAA chose not to accept the proposal.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, what they have is an "exemption," not a "waiver," but that's a difference important only to the lawyers.
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I think it's a stretch to call it an exemption. The regulations were changed to include FADEC as a complex airplane.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I think it's a stretch to call it an exemption. The regulations were changed to include FADEC as a complex airplane.
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It's not a stretch at all -- that's exactly the term for what they issued when it was originally done back around 2004, IIRC, and it was specific to the DA42. The change to Part 61 creating the new definition of a "complex airplane" was made several years later, in 2009, IIRC, allowing other planes with those characteristics to be considered "complex."
 
So I guess the NPRM replacing the 10 hours of complex with advanced IFR training is dead?
 
I just had a meeting with my CFI and examiner. COMPLEX AIRCRAFT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A COMMERCIAL CHECKRIDE. Flying a complex aircraft only requires an endorsement, not an FAA checkout. A pilot can have a commercial certificate and never fly a complex aircraft. -Words from the examiner. Complex is only required if the pilot does not already have a complex endorsement.
 
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Care to give us the name of the examiner? As I'd like to get his superiors involved for being totally wrong on something in the position of DPE should have known likely decades ago.
 
Boss1714 said:
I just had a meeting with my CFI and examiner. COMPLEX AIRCRAFT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A COMMERCIAL CHECKRIDE. Flying a complex aircraft only requires an endorsement, not an FAA checkout. A pilot can have a commercial certificate and never fly a complex aircraft. -Words from the examiner. Complex is only required if the pilot does not already have a complex endorsement.
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That DPEs statement is contrary to published information from the FAA.


That is correct though if you already had a multiengine commercial checkride where you demonstrated complex operations. That is why the puppy-mills that do hour-building in Seminoles also use them for the initial ME commercial (and do the single as an add-on).
 
Just did my commercial check ride in May, WITH TWO AIRPLANES (My brother's C-210-L & my C-182-T) The FAA examiner required a soft/short field T/O and landing, PLUS a engine out landing in BOTH AIRCRAFT. It was my choice of which aircraft that I wanted to use for the commercial maneuvers. Since I had the G-1000 in my 182, I used it for the maneuvers.
 
Boss1714 said:
I noticed that, but isnt page 9 referring to 14 CFR 61.45? #s 1, 2, & 3 are all referred to in 61.45, but #4 is not. That's why I'm confused.
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What R U doin? If this confuses U, then U need to look for another career. Like bein a lawyer, or some other twister of reality truth.

That kind of twistn the regs to suit your paper interpretations may B a social one-upness in that world, or may b financially driven, but good common sense with a sincere desire to become the best pilot U can B would naturally drive one to become commercially skilled in a complex.

For Christ sake, a Commercial Pilot in a 150? Get outa here! Whaddaya tryn to do? really?
 
I'm getting a chuckle out of imagining someone as tall as Greg in a 150.

(Not about weight. I know we were all skinny once!)

We're your knees in your ears, Greg? :)

My first CFI is around 6' 3" if I remember correctly, and he had very specific entry/egress/in-flight positioning in the 150.

I was always amazed he was somehow always out if the way during "flight controls, free and correct" yoke flailing. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
I'm getting a chuckle out of imagining someone as tall as Greg in a 150.
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I'm currently teaching a 6'4" individual in a C-150 and he's having no problem at all. He LOVES the 150! He's thin and athletic, so that might help.
 
Boss1714 said:
I just had a meeting with my CFI and examiner. COMPLEX AIRCRAFT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A COMMERCIAL CHECKRIDE. Flying a complex aircraft only requires an endorsement, not an FAA checkout. A pilot can have a commercial certificate and never fly a complex aircraft. -Words from the examiner. Complex is only required if the pilot does not already have a complex endorsement.
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If the paperwork arrives at OKC showing an initial Commercial-Airplane was conducted without using a complex airplane, the temporary certificate issued by the examiner will be ordered returned, a new practical test will be directed, and the examiner at a minimum will be called in for a discussion with his/her POI and at worst have his/her designation revoked.

If you want to be the monkey in the middle of that circus, go ahead. Otherwise, find another examiner who knows the rules and show up with a complex airplane (plus another noncomplex plane if you want to do it as a split ride).
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
And a Cutlass. :D
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See, he snuck that in way in the bottom, which isn't cute.
I did mine in a 150 also FIFTY YEARS AGO, when radios and instruments were for airline pilots only. We didn't get an instrument rating until we had a commercial with at least 500 hours B4 U started instrument training.

That ain't today. Today, complex airplanes and instrument airspace systems reqire instrument proficiency of Private pilots and extensive complex/Hp experience to be a valid working entry level commercial pilot.

Come on===
 
Boss1714 said:
I just had a meeting with my CFI and examiner. COMPLEX AIRCRAFT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A COMMERCIAL CHECKRIDE. Flying a complex aircraft only requires an endorsement, not an FAA checkout. A pilot can have a commercial certificate and never fly a complex aircraft. -Words from the examiner. Complex is only required if the pilot does not already have a complex endorsement.
Click to expand...
I want some of whatever you guys are smoking...
 
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