Competition for the Tesla

[spiderweb]

Ha ha! Obama administration facts. Next you'll be citing East Anglia University. Buy Kool-Aid stock.

Ah! Touche, mon ami! How impressive your rebuttal is, especially as it is so very much bolstered with facts! I expect you feel very smug right now!

Your critical thinking skills are impressive, my friend, seeing as you find a 'win' on a reference to Kool-Aid--how very hip of you! Also, I give you extra 'inflammatory' points for involving President Obama!

 

[spiderweb]

Windmills and panels are just the modern version of buying indulgences, if it makes you feel better after flying around atomizing lead over children go for it, but they are net energy losses.

And your proof is where? Clever back-handed damnation of Catholicism, by the way!

 

[spiderweb]

They never recoup energy in their lifespan. Let me know when they can make panels or windmills in factories powered by the same stuff. It is impossible.

It is impossible--well said! I prematurely yet irrationally agree with you. You've presented so much evidence to bolster this argument that . . . wait a second!

 

[Armageddon Aviator]

The Tesla Model S is, without a doubt, the very best electric car money can buy...

It's beautiful, comfortable, reliable, fast and has a range of 265 miles...( 300 miles @ 55 mp/h ).

Goes from 0 to 65 mp/h in 4.5 seconds ( ! )

http://www.teslamotors.com/models

I would buy it without hesitation if I had the money...

 

[EppyGA]

I tried to buy a Nissan Leaf for my daughter. She commutes from the island to Texas A&M in Corpus Christi daily, about 55 miles, round trip. PERFECT for an electric car.

It quickly became clear that no one at any dealership was interested in selling Leafs. (Leaves?). The demos they had were almost two years old, they were trying to sell it for the same price as new, and no one knew anything about them.

I tried for months to get info about installing a charging station at our hotel. Ultimately, after many phone calls, I was told they were "unavailable in your area."

Finally, I tried to call Nissan North America, to see if there was any interest in my using a Leaf as a courtesy car for our pilot guests -- supposedly their target market. Their indifference was staggering.

Finally I realized that Nissan had made this car for one reason: Because California demanded it. The last thing they wanted to do was actually sell any of them.

Too bad. I still think an electric car would work great down here in the no-winter South. I bought my daughter a Toyota Matrix instead.

We have a local EAA Chapter member that owns one.

 

[SCCutler]

It is impossible--well said! I prematurely yet irrationally agree with you. You've presented so much evidence to bolster this argument that . . . wait a second!

Hard to imagine a more compelling argument!

I think the only proper means of generating electricity is... Every one that works!

 

[SCCutler]

...and I'd love to have a Tesla sedan. Just too costly for me.

---

As for the comment about the Vot not having enough range, pease 'splain what you mean. Volt has excellent range, just not all electric.

 

[ClimbnSink]

If solar and wind are such golddmines of plentiful energy why do they require massive subsidies to be built? Convert your widget factory to renewables without subsidy and crush the competition. That happens right?

 

[Skylane81E]

Were I buying a midsized car today, the volt would be at the very top of my list. My commute is almost perfect for it, just outside its all electric range, so I'd burn a quart or so of gas a day, rather than two gallons. Wouldn't take long to recover the price premium over a gasoline car.

 

[LDJones]

Ah! Touche, mon ami! How impressive your rebuttal is, especially as it is so very much bolstered with facts! I expect you feel very smug right now!

Your critical thinking skills are impressive, my friend, seeing as you find a 'win' on a reference to Kool-Aid--how very hip of you! Also, I give you extra 'inflammatory' points for involving President Obama!

Did Soyndra provide those "facts" to this administration? A friend works for the local electric utility. But for the tax incentives and govt mandates, wind energy would be dead in the water. You still need the fossil fuels to keep the lights on when the wind doesn't blow?

 

[Skylane81E]

If solar and wind are such golddmines of plentiful energy why do they require massive subsidies to be built? Convert your widget factory to renewables without subsidy and crush the competition. That happens right?

Acquisition costs are still high, as one would expect given the state of the technology, subsidies help the little guy make the leap. If these subsidies are good or not is a discussion for the SZ.

However even without them home solar can stand on its own in many cases. I know a fellow who spent 30k on his home solar system and saved $350/mo on his energy bills. His system carries a 20 year full replacement warranty. As energy prices continue to rise he will only save more money.

And yes he got 20k of his 30 spent back in tax credits.

 

[ClimbnSink]

He wouldn't have done it without the tax break. Give 2/3 off and people will buy all sorts of feel good marginally effective things. Never forget it is you who is paying for your neighbors solar indulgences.

 

[alaskaflyer]

The Antares electricmotorglider is brilliant. I havenothing against electric power just false claims of greennness and efficiency. I'd love an electric car with a seperate drive motor on all 4 wheels, think of the burnouts and silly parking tricks you could do...

Electric powered vehicles are much more efficient. There is a reason the Tesla is a kick in the pants to drive. I'm not sure that the claims of both efficiency and thus "greenness" are so false...just very difficult to calculate accurately when you have to dig deep into the efficiency of power generation and storage behind them.

 

[willywildes]

That's right the fossil plants still run to balance the Electrical load. So no Fossil plants are shut down. A Lawrence Livermore lab Scientist said with today's solar Technology, you could cover Ca,Az,and half of NM,with solar and not provide 10% of Ca Electrical needs. Put alot of Electric cars on the road and you have to build more Powerplants.

 

[1600vw]

Put alot of Electric cars on the road and you have to build more Powerplants.

I believe we will see better photo cell's coming out. The skin of not only the car but airplanes will draw in enough power to keep things going.

It might not be here today but I believe this is coming.

 

[Skylane81E]

I believe we will see better photo cell's coming out. The skin of not only the car but airplanes will draw in enough power to keep things going.

It might not be here today but I believe this is coming.

No, at 100% efficiency there is still not enough sunlight striking the surface of the car to drive it.

 

[Skylane81E]

He wouldn't have done it without the tax break. Give 2/3 off and people will buy all sorts of feel good marginally effective things. Never forget it is you who is paying for your neighbors solar indulgences.

I will not engage in a debate on the government funding...

However spending $30 to save $84 before the warranty is even up makes good financial sense regardless.

Odds are the price of electricity will go up before the cells reach the end of their lives and the savings will be much greater.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I think the only proper means of generating electricity is... Every one that works!

There you go. And as the technology matures, efficiency will improve and costs will go down.

Real world numbers: We installed photovoltaics on the roof of an airport terminal four years ago at an installed cost (including design) of about $7 per kilowatt. We installed photovoltaics on the roof of an airport terminal one year ago at an installed cost (includig design) of about $4 per kilowatt. Same general geographic area.

 

[Silvaire]

They never recoup energy in their lifespan. Let me know when they can make panels or windmills in factories powered by the same stuff. It is impossible.

You've obviously never read anything from Buckminster Fuller.

 

[TMetzinger]

I totally want an electric sports car. I also want an electric ski boat, and electric jet ski and finally, an electric airplane! The sooner we relegate the internal combustion engine to the museum, the better. Sadly, we are still waiting for someone, somewhere, to have that ah ha! moment and come up with a workable electric storage and/or generation device to change the way we transport ourselves. The Li Ion battery ain't it. Still, I'd love something like the Tesla roadster and it would work out for me.

Paging Mr. Shipstone......

First person to name the book to which I am referring gets a box of Thin Mints.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

 

[alaskaflyer]

Paging Mr. Shipstone......

First person to name the book to which I am referring gets a box of Thin Mints.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

I looooove Thin Mints.

 

[redlineshifts]

I really do wish cars like the Volt were affordable or justifiable. The problem is I can't justify spending $42k on what would normally be a $20-25k car at the very most.

Even searching used doesn't really help. The cheapest used volt within 500 miles of me is $26k. I can find a similar Impala for $13k. I'm not sure how large the volt is, but I'd imagine the Impala is the roomier car. If the size is more in line with the Cruze the results are similar but the gas mileage difference shrinks, making it even more difficult to financially justify.

In my personal opinion the most financially justifiable of them all is the Prius. I love the interior space for that size vehicle. Unfortunately I absolutely despise their exterior appearance.

The reward/cost ratio just isn't really there yet for most electric vehicles. I hope it does get there sooner than later though!

 

[Silvaire]

....making it even more difficult to financially justify.....

I assume we're all private pilots here, many of us aircraft owners. What does "financial justification" have to do with anything?

 

[redlineshifts]

I assume we're all private pilots here, many of us aircraft owners. What does "financial justification" have to do with anything?

Although this is a Tesla thread(which is definitely a "fun" car), most of us drive out of necessity.

I would LOVE to rock a Tesla for the fun factor, I was more speaking of general transportation needs being met by EVs and hybrids(which is difficult to financially justify vs the gasoline option).

Long story short, I'm way off topic in this thread!

 

[Skylane81E]

I really do wish cars like the Volt were affordable or justifiable. The problem is I can't justify spending $42k on what would normally be a $20-25k car at the very most.

Even searching used doesn't really help. The cheapest used volt within 500 miles of me is $26k. I can find a similar Impala for $13k. I'm not sure how large the volt is, but I'd imagine the Impala is the roomier car. If the size is more in line with the Cruze the results are similar but the gas mileage difference shrinks, making it even more difficult to financially justify.

In my personal opinion the most financially justifiable of them all is the Prius. I love the interior space for that size vehicle. Unfortunately I absolutely despise their exterior appearance.

The reward/cost ratio just isn't really there yet for most electric vehicles. I hope it does get there sooner than later though!

It all boils down to your mission (just like with planes) if I had a volt I would run out of juice a few miles from my house every evening. Even factoring in the costs to charge the car it would save me around $50 a week, maybe $30 or so if I was driving a more fuel efficient car. I could recoup the higher acquisition costs, but not everyone could.


And yes Ted, I know that a Volt would be boring to drive, but being stuck in traffic is boring any way, and actually less frustrating for me in a boring car.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Hey where's my Thin Mints?

 

[Henning]

The Tesla is the only one I'd be remotely interested in. Seen one, it was nice.
We just don't have the infrastructure to support it. We need a place every so many miles that we can swap battery packs as fast as we can fill a tank. When we have that, we'll have electric cars in every neighborhood.

That bit of infrastructure could be simple as adding a battery rack at gas stations similar to propane tank exchange. Where it will fail is that there will be no standardization for trays, sizes and connections for at least 2 decades. Heck, how many years did it take to get down to 2 phone charger plugs with the one from Apple being an oddball in both form and function? The other issue is that the batteries would have to be rentals because you won't get 'yours' back and they are expensive as well as life limited.

 

[RJM62]

If we weren't such wimps, we'd just use RTGs to self-recharge electric cars. Keep the battery to store enough energy for quick acceleration or prolonged uphill driving, but during cruise (when little power is used) and when the car is parked (when none is used), the RTG charges the battery.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

If we weren't such wimps, we'd just use RTGs to self-recharge electric cars. Keep the battery to store enough energy for quick acceleration or prolonged uphill driving, but during cruise (when little power is used) and when the car is parked (when none is used), the RTG charges the battery.

-Rich

I thought that even using PU-238 those were only putting out around half a kilowatt per kilogram of material? With a good battery set you could probably get away with 7-10kw in a light vehicle that isn't accelerating a bunch. The main issues I see are the fear of the word 'radioactive' and the fact that the press would demonize them as 'dirty bombs ready to go off. The other issue is that we would need a new method to detect nuclear material coming into the country, because most of what we have will be rendered useless.

 

[Theboys]

I looked at the tesla sedan and was on the list. Then they said the 350 mile range one was 65000 and I was a little concerned about no backup for running out of power. Decided to get the volt which had a tax rebate and was about half the price. Have had it since last August and have used maybe 25 gal of gas in 8000 miles. We love our volt. I have a newer Cadillac that I like but I prefer the volt. My power concern on the tesla seems to be more relevant due to cold in the Midwest also. It seems that it takes more power to use heat in the volt than the air conditioning. We have had no problems with the volt and I would buy another today. It takes about three hours to charge on a 220 volt charger and I really don't notice much difference on our electric bill. They say you only get about 38 miles on a charge on he 2013 volt but a more realistic range is about 55 miles at least for us.

 

[willywildes]

Fisker on the way to Liquidation. Only a few hundred million Experiment,at tax payer expense. Who's next. In five four three.

 

[Captain]

Why not ask Elon Musk his opinion on this?

If you don't know, Mr. Musk is the CEO of Tesla Motor Co. and recently gave a TED Talk on this very subject. Its funny how he hit the point of this thread almost point for point.

Elon Musk TED Talk

 

[willywildes]

I like the link. Great for Mr lusk, and its great that he has the dreams and part of the money to fund them. That said Tesla just sent out letters to its Customers asking them to pre pay for there cars so they could pad the numbers for the quarter. Begging customers to pay for a product they haven't received. Doesn't sound like a healthy company to me. Mr Lusk shaves the facts. Which is fine when it's his money. But it's not, its billions of taxpayer dollars to fund his dreams.

 

[Captain]

I doubt taxpayers are 'billions' into Tesla. What's your source on that? I thought they were simply getting the tax breaks all 'green industries' get to help stimulate development in that field.

I do know Mr. Musk has put a considerable amount of his own PayPal fortune up for Tesla. I'd equate him to a modern day Howard Hughes.

 

[willywildes]

DOE loan 500 mil just to buy and convert Fremont NUMI plant. Source not a good one Joe Biden. Solar City Probably just as much if not more. space X, Who knows? Then we start on the tax credits.So I feel safe in saying over a billion tax payer dollars, on his dreams. For companies that have not turned one penny of profit.

 

[Silvaire]

... Which is fine when it's his money. But it's not, its billions of taxpayer dollars to fund his dreams.

First of all, I'm pretty sure the "dreams" are our dreams, not just his.

Secondly, and I'm not directing this at you personally, but anyone who sat silently while C130's filled with pallets of taxpayer provided, shrink wrapped $100 bills were being flown to Baghdad daily (never to be seen again or even accounted for) has no business going on a rant over government loans for renewable energy development.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[DrMack]

Frankly, I don't think too many people want electric sports cars. Some, sure. But not very many.

What would be nice would be an electric family-sized car with a minimum 300-mile range, six-hour or less recharge time, and air conditioning. I'm not sure that's possible given existing technology.

Another thing that might sell well would be a small pickup with at least a 200-mile range. That would suit me just fine. I commonly drive more than 100 miles in a day, but rarely over 200.

-Rich

Why not just design a large standardized battery pack that can be changed out at a service station? It seems to me that what's hindering the growth of electric vehicles is all the effort being put into configurations that require the vehicle plugging into a charging station. Imagine the scenario where it would take 6 hours to fill your gas tank on cars today. You don't need even half a brain to realize that the economic viability of that business model would be nil. A five minute change of battery pack at a service station would dramatically alter that assessment.

 

[Captain]

Changing batteries isn't a new idea. Its been looked at. From what I remember its an issue of today's battery technology requires a battery size thats too big that can deliver desired rages.

So, that's why Tesla is looking at charge times. He discusses exactly that in the link on the last page.

 

[Dav8or]

In my personal opinion the most financially justifiable of them all is the Prius. I love the interior space for that size vehicle. Unfortunately I absolutely despise their exterior appearance.

For you there is the Lexus CT 200h. It's a Prius with a different body. Costs a little more and gets a little worse mileage. Nicer inside too.

 

[Dav8or]

Why not just design a large standardized battery pack that can be changed out at a service station? It seems to me that what's hindering the growth of electric vehicles is all the effort being put into configurations that require the vehicle plugging into a charging station. Imagine the scenario where it would take 6 hours to fill your gas tank on cars today. You don't need even half a brain to realize that the economic viability of that business model would be nil. A five minute change of battery pack at a service station would dramatically alter that assessment.

I guess you guys haven't heard of Project Better Place, or I guess they call themselves just Better Place now. Swapping battery packs is their whole idea. They have done the engineering with Renault and one of the Japanese battery manufacturers. They have swindled numerous governments around the world out of money and I understand now are on the brink of bankruptcy. Anyhow, they have sold some cars and you can watch the video of a battery swap in action here.

betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stations