Competition for the Tesla

[willywildes]

Nice Lexus! agh Toyota a real Company that can stand on its own two feet.

 

[DrMack]

I guess you guys haven't heard of Project Better Place, or I guess they call themselves just Better Place now. Swapping battery packs is their whole idea. They have done the engineering with Renault and one of the Japanese battery manufacturers. They have swindled numerous governments around the world out of money and I understand now are on the brink of bankruptcy. Anyhow, they have sold some cars and you can watch the video of a battery swap in action here.

betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stations

Their horse outran the cart. In the USA the decision to test it in Hawaii almost made sense except that electricity retails for close to $0.30/KwH. Now that they have scaled back to Denmark and Israel they might be able to prove the concept from an economic perspective.

Remember that in the early days of the automobile the great challenge was the lack of gasoline distribution infrastructure. It eventually developed but it took decades. A competing/complimentary idea is T. Boone Pickins' natural gas initiative.

 

[flyingron]

That bit of infrastructure could be simple as adding a battery rack at gas stations similar to propane tank exchange. Where it will fail is that there will be no standardization for trays, sizes and connections for at least 2 decades. Heck, how many years did it take to get down to 2 phone charger plugs with the one from Apple being an oddball in both form and function? The other issue is that the batteries would have to be rentals because you won't get 'yours' back and they are expensive as well as life limited.

You can't get the batteries out of most EV's in anything approximating a reasonable amount of time. In the Tesla they're mounted low down in the frame to get the CG right.

Tesla does have some VERY rapid charging stations set up which is really what you want. They can charge up the car reasonably in 30 minutes/

 

[Captain]

Their horse outran the cart. In the USA the decision to test it in Hawaii almost made sense except that electricity retails for close to $0.30/KwH. Now that they have scaled back to Denmark and Israel they might be able to prove the concept from an economic perspective.

Remember that in the early days of the automobile the great challenge was the lack of gasoline distribution infrastructure. It eventually developed but it took decades. A competing/complimentary idea is T. Boone Pickins' natural gas initiative.

Natural gas may be an interim solution, but its not a long range solution. NG is still a finite source that will eventually run out. Plus, its still burning carbons. Ideally our power supply shouldn't burn any carbon. It took millions of years of time to get all that carbon into the ground and now, in the blink of an eye geologically, we have put all that carbon into the atmosphere.

The sun delivers enough energy to the earth in 3 seconds to power all civilization for a year. The trick is to harness that energy. It can be done but will take a really effort to get it done now when we want to rather than later when we HAVE to. The days coming either way.

 

[Silvaire]

I guess you guys haven't heard of Project Better Place, or I guess they call themselves just Better Place now. Swapping battery packs is their whole idea....

I wouldn't call it their idea, pretty much everyone who has ever thought about it has come up with the idea of battery swapping.

I can see a few problems with Better Places interpretation though. First of all, the fixed cost idea makes no sense at all. You're going to pay the same whether you drive 1000 miles a year or 20,000? The second is the notion that they are somehow going to be in charge of all of these swapping stations.

This whole idea would require some sort of standardization as far as batteries and how they are mounted and that is something that is probably not going to happen in a rapidly growing new technology. It would almost require regulation, which would probably be as much a hindrance as a benefit. Even if that were to happen the development of battery swapping stations would be a huge infrastructure. Opening a swapping station would have to be a viable and potentially profitable enterprise so that people would do it. It would never be something exclusive as these Better Place guys envision. Especially if the industry as a whole were to agree to standardize on these replaceable battery packs.

If it were to work you would never actually own a battery, you would just use one and be charged for the amount of charge taken from it when you got a replacement. But I don't see this happening, I think the way of the future is rapid charging with a decent 200-300 mile range. It may not ever be quite as fast as pumping 30 gallons into a tank but for long distance travel these stations will probably be combined with rest areas that have amenities to keep you occupied during the charging process. We would adapt.

 

[Dav8or]

Nice Lexus! agh Toyota a real Company that can stand on its own two feet.

Keep kidding yourself. Japanese car companies are some the most subsidized companies in the world. Not by our government, but the Japanese government. Ever wonder why Mazda, Subaru, Daihatsu and Isuzu never went out of business even thought they had some bad products, poor quality and poor management? Japanese car companies aren't allowed to go out of business. They are one of the pillars of the Japanese industrial complex.

 

[Dav8or]

You can't get the batteries out of most EV's in anything approximating a reasonable amount of time.

Go to the link above and watch the Better Place battery swap video. They do it in less time than an average fill up. How reliable is it? I have no idea. But my guess is there would maintenance issues not too far down the road. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to set out on the highway with a unknown rental battery.

 

[Dav8or]

Natural gas may be an interim solution, but its not a long range solution.

Literally. Natural gas powered cars have a very short cruising range. Natural gas has nowhere near the energy density of gasoline and it is stored on the car in gaseous form, so natural gas cars make decent in town commuter cars, but are no replacement for the family, does all sedan.

 

[Dav8or]

I wouldn't call it their idea, pretty much everyone who has ever thought about it has come up with the idea of battery swapping.

I can see a few problems with Better Places interpretation though.

I didn't intend to mean that Better Place were the first to come up with the idea of battery swapping for cars, just that it's the whole idea behind their company. I agree there are many problems to this approach and thus why they are struggling. I am not a big fan of this solution myself.

 

[Skylane81E]

Go to the link above and watch the Better Place battery swap video. They do it in less time than an average fill up. How reliable is it? I have no idea. But my guess is there would maintenance issues not too far down the road. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to set out on the highway with a unknown rental battery.

And there is the key, ensuring you get a battery of known quality. Same issues ith gasoline too.

Give it time, I'm sure we will get there, given time.

 

[willywildes]

Keep kidding yourself. Japanese car companies are some the most subsidized companies in the world. Not by our government, but the Japanese government. Ever wonder why Mazda, Subaru, Daihatsu and Isuzu never went out of business even thought they had some bad products, poor quality and poor management? Japanese car companies aren't allowed to go out of business. They are one of the pillars of the Japanese industrial

They Survived by being diversified well-run companies. Ie. fuji heavy Industries made aircraft and engines for the war and were broken up after the war by the Allied occupation forces. 15% owned by Toyota. Toyota third-largest car manufacturer in the world 11th largest company in the world. Not sure how much help they need.Did the government help, up for Conjecture. Remember Japan had just been bombed back to the Stone Age, a few years earlier. Loyal Japanese bought Japanese products. Some would say the Japanese government kept US cars out. But in reality the US manufactures didn't make much that would sell in the Japanese market. The US government and unions through Tariffs and quotas did everything to try and stop them from importing them into the USA.Now the Government gives the US car companies billions of dollars and Borrowed yuan just to stay afloat. And owns half of one.