Commute by Plane?

[mercurial]

I think any basic trainer with IFR capability would fit the bill for the mission. A 150/152 is cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to maintain, and cheap to fly. No need to take on a partner.

If the experiment doesn't work, he can sell it easily, or upgrade if he decides he wants a more capable aircraft.

Speaking of experimentals, he really needs to wait until after he's been in this flying thing a bit to decide he wants to go that route. For what he's trying to do, the most basic, simple airplane will do.

A note about time needed on the ends. A pilot who is familiar with his plane can safety conduct a preflight in 5 minutes easily on a simple airplane like a 150. Alternatively, I've watched pilots take 25 minutes to pre-flight. I suspect the latter aren't flying the same plane several times a week.

A towered field doesn't necessary slow things down. You need to warm the engine oil anyway so whether you're spinning the prop at your tie down, or on a long taxiway, it doesn't make a lot of difference. As a regular, they'll start to anticipate your operations and offer intersection departures and the like to get you in and out quickly.

Back when I used to fly a 152 for a traffic watch operation, I could show up to the airport at 5:50am and be in the air, on the air with the studio at 6:00am. Not rushing, not skipping anything, just efficient use of time. To further save time, I'd set my computer to run a weather briefing right as my alarm went off. The FBO handled fueling, so after shutting down I just had to tie down, log my time, and walk away. Routinely I did touchdown to hopping in my car in less than 10 minutes.

Right on, this is exactly what I was thinking. I believed something like this was possible because as with all things in life, routine breeds both familiarity, and the desire to heavily optimize associated processes because saving 30 seconds here or there, over a large number of repetitions, yields very large aggregate time savings.

Regarding the fog at destination airport PAO, this is just purely anecdotal, but over the last 4 years I've noticed that the south bay doesn't seem nearly as afflicted by marine layer as the northern peninsula (and SFO.) It may have something to do with the fact that prevailing winds don't blow Golden Gate fog down south, and also because the bay is incredibly shallow and presumably much warmer down by Palo Alto; I believe it's only a few feet deep.

 

[KLRDMD]

involving the CFI in the purchase / plane selection process would be recommended.

While I agree that buying may make sense, few CFIs that I know have ever owned an airplane and truly wouldn't know the first thing about buying one.

 

[paflyer]

I think merurial, the OP, is Benthepilot or checkmysix or whoever he calls himself this week.

Yeah- I had that exact thought.

 

[mercurial]

One other interesting factoid, the company just completed a 60 year lease of the adjacent NASA Moffett Air Field, so it's completely possible that if I talk to the right people, I might be able to land and park there, and literally walk to my building 5 minutes away.

 

[paflyer]

Dont think so. Hasn't started to argue with people yet.

Maybe he learned his lesson. But the new handle describes him to a T.

 

[mercurial]

Maybe he learned his lesson. But the new handle describes him to a T.

I'm not whoever that guy is. Mercurial is my traditional handle that I have used for over 10 years. I use the same handle and am one of the oldest members at the largest motorcycle forum on the internet, www.bayarearidersforum.com. We also have problems with name changing trolls, but we usually don't call them out unless they are being disruptive *******s. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tom-D]

They didn't call the 150 a "commuter" for nothing.

 

[dans2992]

One other interesting factoid, the company just completed a 60 year lease of the adjacent NASA Moffett Air Field, so it's completely possible that if I talk to the right people, I might be able to land and park there, and literally walk to my building 5 minutes away.

I'm betting you could probably work that out easily.

Can the general public land there now?

 

[Tom-D]

Hi All,

I'm not a pilot (yet), but have always wanted to get licensed, and have sufficient discretionary income to do so.

FIRST STEP !!! Do it . when you are a pilot you will be able to access the solution much better.

 

[Henning]

I'm betting you could probably work that out easily.

Can the general public land there now?

I'm not sure about 'general public', but isn't that where Google keeps their Jet? If so, there is certainly precedent.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not sure about 'general public', but isn't that where Google keeps their Jet? If so, there is certainly precedent.

It is open to public access. I have friends that fly there occasionally

It is under the 4k rings of both large airports near by and can be flown vfr with flight following. There shouldn't be any problem commuting there.

My former supervisor was stationed there most of his career in P-2s and says the fog isn't that much of a problem.

 

[mercurial]

It is open to public access. I have friends that fly there occasionally

It is under the 4k rings of both large airports near by and can be flown vfr with flight following. There shouldn't be any problem commuting there.

My former supervisor was stationed there most of his career in P-2s and says the fog isn't that much of a problem.

Nice! It would certainly be humorous to pull and park my little ****ter next to their G6s and 767s.

 

[weilke]

I really like your logic on my bonus. Are there any further angles that might justify an even better plane? Although in all seriousness, I'm still young and I don't think I'll feel financially comfortable investing in a $100k+ airplane for quite some time. Maybe if I didn't have kids.

The other way to justify flying is to :
- value your time with a ridiculous hourly rate so aby 30min timesavings justifies using the plane
- plan your day in such a hacked up way that only a plane will do.

The 100k+ kind of plane is where shared ownership comes in, not for the 25k cessna 150. Doing a commute in someting that burns more fuel and takes longer to warm up would really drive up cost. Wear items like alternators and starters also cost a lot more on a cirrus or bonanza than on a c150.

How much do you weigh ? 150s and 152s are very payload limited. Find an independent instructor who is willing to teach you in your plane (and is light enough to do so). You can start commuting while you are still a student, you'll have a big stack of solo endorsements if you do.

Whatever you do, buy a plane that is a commodity item like a 150, 152 or cherokee 140. Yes, you can reduce your capital outlay by buying a tomahawk, grumman or beech trainer, but they tend to be harder to sell.

Look at Brads post for reasonable timelines.

I looked at the Palo Alto aerial pics again. There are cars parked on tiedowns. You may be able to leave a cheap motorcycle parked there as an alternative.

 

[Tom-D]

Nice! It would certainly be humorous to pull and park my little ****ter next to their G6s and 767s.

It would be nice to use a nice X-AB single seater for the commute, there are a bunch out there. operating well under your budget.

get your certificate first or this dream will not come true.

only other option is "ultralight" Far part 103, SoCal weather may make that work.

 

[Perezhr]

If I was looking at a 2-2.5 hour ride in traffic to go to work I would absolutely be looking to fly. You are young and you will find learning to fly an incredibly rewarding experience. In fact, the same feeling of freedom that you get when riding a motorcycle through a great road is very much what you get flying. Flying or riding my motorcycle are the only times I feel that way. For your short commute a Cessna 150/152 or a Cherokee 140 will work best. They are cheap to buy/own/operate and are great airplanes to learn how to fly. Take a few flight lessons with an instructor to make sure learning to fly is really something you would like to do. If you get hooked with the flying bug, then buy one of these aircraft and continue your training in your own airplane. By the time you finish your training you will be thoroughly familiar and comfortable flying that airplane. If after the first few hours it looks like something you are really going to enjoy, a Cherokee 140 May become a slightly better option in that they are still quite inexpensive but you will not outgrow as quickly as the Cessna 150/152.

If Moffet field is an option for you then this gets even better as you may not have to deal with tie down expenses. As others have said, once you start commuting every week you will get much faster/efficient at checking the weather, doing your preflight, and flying in/out of these airports, but most importantly it will not feel like a chore. It will be an enjoyable commute.

 

[mercurial]

Weilke, I'm 130 lbs soaking wet right now, and my metabolism makes it impossible to get over 150. I'm very familiar with your time-valuation theory, and will note that Tesla makes excellent use of it in their "effective monthly cost" calculators. Apparently you actually make money, when you buy a Model S P85.

Tom, I can't get the X-AB. Alan Eustace would get jealous and would try to take it up to 100,000 feet when I wasn't around, and then eject from it.

 

[weilke]

, I'm 130 lbs soaking wet right now,

Perfect. You are A. not Ben* B. skinny enough that even with a 200lb CFI you will still be able to put fuel into a 150 and remain legal.










*sorry, you are going to be stuck with the lame Ben jokes for the time being, he is a bay area tech guy who has been around here for a while. The best way to prove your 'nonbennyness' is by posting up some pics of you and your plane within a month or two. Just dont tell us how you are about to buy a particular plane and then stop short of doing so.

 

[comanchepilot]

Concord? CCR? That's not a private airport. . . . . and yes - it gets fog alot.

CCR to where then? San Jose? Just go around the Golden Gate on the West side and then come over the ridge VFR ontop of the clouds into PAO.

 

[comanchepilot]

What? You DRIVE That route? Ever heard of BART? or Cal Train?

 

[mercurial]

I won't lie, it does get fog now and then, but Concord is far enough inland that it usually burns off real quick and the marine layer is usually stopped by the hills to the west. Just my experience being a local to the area for 30 years. Public transit is not an option, because it's far too slow and circular in route. BART->Caltrains would take me probably close to 3-3.5 hours per trip, and it would cost me about $35 in daily fares. It's almost as expensive as flying the damn plane!

The company runs private buses on my route which have been a real life saver. But that just means instead of being totally awful, it's just rather unpleasant.

 

[hook_dupin]

While I agree that buying may make sense, few CFIs that I know have ever owned an airplane and truly wouldn't know the first thing about buying one.

There's a few of us out there. I just advised a client on the basics (get a pre-buy, buy the $5 FAA CD, the reality of the first annual, etc).

 

[KLRDMD]

While I agree that buying may make sense, few CFIs that I know have ever owned an airplane and truly wouldn't know the first thing about buying one.

There's a few of us out there. I just advised a client on the basics (get a pre-buy, buy the $5 FAA CD, the reality of the first annual, etc).

There's no question that some CFIs are an excellent resource for buying airplanes, however most are not. I'm a CFI, CFII & MEI and I've personally owned 12 airplanes in my flying career. I would be a pretty good resource but I maintain that most CFIs that I know have ever owned an airplane and truly wouldn't know the first thing about buying one.

 

[MAKG1]

That is absolute minimum if nothing breaks and you fly this VFR without the need to maintain a IFR capable plane.

VFR on a schedule around the Bay is a recipe for either an expensive heap of scrap aluminum or a lot of late and missed meetings.

The issue is not approach corridors (except for SFO). It's mountain obscuration by clouds. That's common at 8AM.

 

[weilke]

VFR on a schedule around the Bay is a recipe for either an expensive heap of scrap aluminum or a lot of late and missed meetings.

The issue is not approach corridors (except for SFO). It's mountain obscuration by clouds. That's common at 8AM.

He said that he has a very flexible schedule, also the distance involved allows him to drive if need be. With a car at each end, and if he owns the plane, the decision to leave the plane behind in Palo Alto is a really easy one. If it's socked in in the morning, same thing just build it in your schedule and drive.

I had a showtime at 9:30 sharp and did the VFR commute including into the winter. If the weather was a no-go, I skipped breakfast with my wife and headed out directly. If it was flying weather, I enjoyed the extra time with wife and kids and headed up to the airport. Afternoon thunderstorms were more of a wildcard.

 

[Henning]

I costs almost nothing extra to maintain an IFR capable plane over a VFR only.

 

[mercurial]

Is there a pro/con between a Cherokee 140 v. a c150? Looks like the Cherokee is more expensive. Pricing seems to closely track engine SMOH, is the thinking to find a sub 1000 SMOH plane because that will probably give me at least 5 years before I have any major maintenance grief? And someone mentioned that engine SMOH to price depreciation is non-linear?

 

[Henning]

Is there a pro/con between a Cherokee 140 v. a c150? Looks like the Cherokee is more expensive. Pricing seems to closely track engine SMOH, is the thinking to find a sub 1000 SMOH plane because that will probably give me at least 5 years before I have any major maintenance grief? And someone mentioned that engine SMOH to price depreciation is non-linear?

The Cherokee 140 will use more fuel and land at a higher speed when you have to put it into a neighborhood or hill side. The positive is it will take more weight and stuff in the cabin. For what you want to do and where you operate, I would choose a 152 (Lycoming O-235 vs Continental O-200 in the C-150), and when it comes time to do the engine I would do the 125hp Sparrowhawk conversion.

 

[weilke]

I costs almost nothing extra to maintain an IFR capable plane over a VFR only.

In the 'cheap plane' (<25k simple trainer) category there is a difference. In order to fly approaches at either of those airports, he either needs two nav receivers, a DME or a GPS. With a GPS comes the need for a database subscription which alone is about what the inspection fee for the annual would run.

I think there is a difference between maintaining an aircraft marginally IFR capable to use as a trainer vs. betting your life on the equipment for a commute in IMC.

 

[Henning]

In the 'cheap plane' (<25k simple trainer) category there is a difference. In order to fly approaches at either of those airports, he either needs two nav receivers, a DME or a GPS. With a GPS comes the need for a database subscription which alone is about what the inspection fee for the annual would run.

I think there is a difference between maintaining an aircraft marginally IFR capable to use as a trainer vs. betting your life on the equipment for a commute in IMC.

Cost of two navs is next to nothing.

 

[FORANE]

I think there is a difference between maintaining an aircraft marginally IFR capable to use as a trainer vs. betting your life on the equipment for a commute in IMC.

Well said. This distinction may be even more important with a low time pilot.

 

[comanchepilot]

What your 'company' needs to do is move to Moline, Kansas City or Peoria. . . . . lots of land, lots of talent from the universities, build what it wants on the prairie and not be affected by the vagaries of Bay Area issues . . . .

Austin would give them some of the same politics if that was important and Austin already is 'weird' and plagued by the homeless and similar ills of liberalism - you'd feel right at home.

 

[John221us]

The Cherokee 140 will use more fuel and land at a higher speed when you have to put it into a neighborhood or hill side. The positive is it will take more weight and stuff in the cabin. For what you want to do and where you operate, I would choose a 152 (Lycoming O-235 vs Continental O-200 in the C-150), and when it comes time to do the engine I would do the 125hp Sparrowhawk conversion.

I disagree. I had a 140 for 4 years. The Cherokee 140 has a 150 HP O-320, not an O-235 (that would be the Cherokee 235). It uses marginally more fuel (in the scheme of things with aviation). In standard cruise it will do 8 GPH (compared to 6 or 7 for a 150) and you can always pull it back and burn less, since the 150 is considerably slower, anyway. The stall speed difference is minimal (42 vs 48 KIAS), but they both land pretty slow. The increase in functionality is tremendous. You can actually haul two people and luggage, plus it has much better range and speed for cross countries. Granted, the 150 will do the commute, but the OP is bound to want to use his new aviation skills to do other things.

 

[weilke]

Well said. This distinction may be even more important with a low time pilot.

Yeah, flying the bay area airspace IFR with two navs, no gps an no dme sounds like a barrel of fun.

 

[Anthony]

Here is the possible breakdown, as near as I can tell:

Home to airport: 5 minutes (no joke)

Walking to plane, prepping plane, taxiing: 10 minutes (?) (30 minutes, more if you need fuel)

Flight time: 25 minutes (have you counted climb, decent, and tiem in pattern?)

parking plane, egressing airport: 10 minutes (?) (20 minutes minimum)

airport to office: 10 minutes (assume average speed of 30 mph on thinly trafficked road with only 1 light)

total time door to door, 1 hour. The key point here, is that the home->airport and airport->office legs are really, really short and easy. Right now it's taking me minimum 2 hours drive if I work offset hours, often 2.5 if I brave peak traffic.

You are in reality closer to 1:35 - 1:45 door to door, and 2 hours with a headwind. I commuted weekly, meaning I left Monday morning, and came back Friday night for a few years in my Tiger. I didn't do this all year round due to weather conditions in the northeast, and I had a much longer commute than you, about 285 miles each way (driving miles) around NYC. It was an hour and 20 min or so flight vs. a 5 1/2 - 6 hour drive each way.

You do need your own plane, but don't try to justify it for commuting from a financial perspective, or even perhaps time.

 

[EvilEagle]

I commuted to work in a Glasair 1 for two years. It was neat but more of a pain than you'd think.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JHW]

What your 'company' needs to do is move to Moline, Kansas City or Peoria. . . . . lots of land, lots of talent from the universities, build what it wants on the prairie and not be affected by the vagaries of Bay Area issues . . . .

Austin would give them some of the same politics if that was important and Austin already is 'weird' and plagued by the homeless and similar ills of liberalism - you'd feel right at home.

for many years if you lived in kansas city and wanted to visit california, U-haul would give you a truck for free to drive there. The loaded U-haul's only went 1-way.

 

[JHW]

The cherokee 140 is going to be more spacious to sit in and is going to be better for parking on a windy day. Just wrap a seatbely around the yoke, chock the nosewheel, and run. The baby cessna is going to want to be tied down every time. OTOH the cessna with overhead shade and big openable windows is going to be much more comfortable to sit in during ground holds.

 

[mercurial]

What your 'company' needs to do is move to Moline, Kansas City or Peoria. . . . . lots of land, lots of talent from the universities, build what it wants on the prairie and not be affected by the vagaries of Bay Area issues . . . .

Austin would give them some of the same politics if that was important and Austin already is 'weird' and plagued by the homeless and similar ills of liberalism - you'd feel right at home.

If they did any of those things, I would quit in a hot minute. #1 rule of people who have "made it" in California, you never relocate from California! You know what I'm talking about.

 

[skynewbie]

Nope it's not me. Great discussion as I'm considering similar process in buying an airpark home either in the foothills or Arizona and commuting to customer meetings when required. Definitely get your instrument rated as you will need it to keep a schedule. I'm working on mine right now.

As for planes how big of a guy are you? I'd look at a Cessna 172 or Piper Archer. A cessna 152 or Piper 140 are less expensive but I'd rather pay a few bucks more to have an IFR capable cross country traveling machine.

 

[Flavius Renatus]

What your 'company' needs to do is move to Moline, Kansas City or Peoria. . . . . lots of land, lots of talent from the universities, build what it wants on the prairie and not be affected by the vagaries of Bay Area issues . . . .

Austin would give them some of the same politics if that was important and Austin already is 'weird' and plagued by the homeless and similar ills of liberalism - you'd feel right at home.

Comanche...Please do not advertise the area, I currently have 2 hangers on 2 different airports, 1 class C for winter and 1 grass strip for summer and only pay $290 for both with Utilities.

There is no traffic worth mentioning and I like it like this. :wink2:

Flav