Communicating general VFR intentions to ATC while on FF (vs exact route)?

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noahf

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noahf
Hi PoA,
On two recent flights, I had a general idea of what I wanted (e.g. a route, or maneuvering practice), and didn't communicate that well to ATC the first time. I'm wondering if anyone has tips.

Scenario 1. Flight from KPAO to KMRY. I planned to go down the valley (route for approximate purposes: KPAO SJC LICKE E16 KMRY, but asked for flight following to KMRY via SJC. While abeam and about 3nm West of SJC, Norcal gave me "right turn heading 160" going over the Santa Cruz mountains. So, what would have been a better way to ask (KPAO ground req for flight following) something like "route me down the valley towards San Martin" ?

Scenario 2. Flight from KPAO to practice area near KLVK (Lake Del Valle). Asked KPAO ground for flight following to KLVK area. Upon handoff, Norcal Approach asked me to call back with KLVK info-code [for landing]. I told them we'd be maneuvering & not landing, and they seemed happy with that.

So I guess my lesson learned is: Be very specific with ATC, and don't make ATC guess your intentions?

And my question is: How do you ask for non-exact things, like "flight following to some area for practice" or "route me somewhat near SJC, but I know you don't really want me right down the middle of the valley in the way of the jet traffic".?
 
noahf said:
So I guess my lesson learned is: Be very specific with ATC, and don't make ATC guess your intentions?

And my question is: How do you ask for non-exact things, like "flight following to some area for practice" or "route me somewhat near SJC, but I know you don't really want me right down the middle of the valley in the way of the jet traffic".?
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They're definitely not mind readers.

Plain English works when they're not busy. That last one for SJC just say you're doing some sightseeing but would like to remain on flight following and handle you're own Nav.

They'll move you around as needed if you're in the way of something or going to be. Or call traffic to you. Just be polite and if you think you're in the way, let them know you don't have to be there if you don't, or whatever.

Don't overthink it. Just ask. No big deal.
 
noahf said:
Be very specific with ATC, and don't make ATC guess your intentions?
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Well as Nate said, they can't read your mind...

So yes, you need to be specific in what you plan to do. It helps them better organize you within the flow of traffic.
 
You get traffic calls in the southern Santa Clara valley. It's the way it is, and the only way you'll avoid it is to fly after San Jose's curfew.

It's not a communication problem, it's just all the purple 737s.

I'd have flown that route over Lexington Reservoir and Watsonville. Much prettier for the passengers, and pretty close to direct.
 
One time I took off out of RIC (class C). While talking to ground I let them know we would be doing some low circles over Kings Dominion (local theme park, closed for the season) on the way back to IAD. When I was handed off to departure, they just said "Report King's Dominion in sight." When I got there they said to just let them know when I was going back on course to Dulles.
 
You speak English, ATC speaks English, just clearly say what you want to do, if they need clarification thell ask for it, and if you need clarification ask for it. It's not rocket surgery.


The people who have troubles with ATC are always the ones who think too much about saying things properly, instead of just saying what they need to say.
 
noahf said:
Hi PoA,
On two recent flights, I had a general idea of what I wanted (e.g. a route, or maneuvering practice), and didn't communicate that well to ATC the first time. I'm wondering if anyone has tips.

Scenario 1. Flight from KPAO to KMRY. I planned to go down the valley (route for approximate purposes: KPAO SJC LICKE E16 KMRY, but asked for flight following to KMRY via SJC. While abeam and about 3nm West of SJC, Norcal gave me "right turn heading 160" going over the Santa Cruz mountains. So, what would have been a better way to ask (KPAO ground req for flight following) something like "route me down the valley towards San Martin" ?

Scenario 2. Flight from KPAO to practice area near KLVK (Lake Del Valle). Asked KPAO ground for flight following to KLVK area. Upon handoff, Norcal Approach asked me to call back with KLVK info-code [for landing]. I told them we'd be maneuvering & not landing, and they seemed happy with that.

So I guess my lesson learned is: Be very specific with ATC, and don't make ATC guess your intentions?

And my question is: How do you ask for non-exact things, like "flight following to some area for practice" or "route me somewhat near SJC, but I know you don't really want me right down the middle of the valley in the way of the jet traffic".?
Click to expand...

From the AIM:

" b. The single, most important thought in pilot-controller communications is understanding. It is essential, therefore, that pilots acknowledge each radio communication with ATC by using the appropriate aircraft call sign. Brevity is important, and contacts should be kept as brief as possible, but controllers must know what you want to do before they can properly carry out their control duties. And you, the pilot, must know exactly what the controller wants you to do. Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across. Pilots are to maintain vigilance in monitoring air traffic control radio communications frequencies for potential traffic conflicts with their aircraft especially when operating on an active runway and/or when conducting a final approach to landing."

Bob Gardner
 
Qotile said:
"NorCal, Cessna 12345 request VFR flight following to Monterey via San Martin"

"NorCal, Cessna 12345 request traffic advisories while maneuvering around Lake Del Valle"
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:yeahthat:
 
noahf said:
..."route me down the valley towards San Martin"...
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It's fine to let them know what route you're planning, but unless you're in class B airspace, you don't need them to "route" you, because your route while you're VFR is up to you unless they give you specific directions. (Of course, you'll need to stay near the side of Coyote Valley unless you're well below the jet traffic going into SJC.)
 
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MAKG1 said:
You get traffic calls in the southern Santa Clara valley. It's the way it is, and the only way you'll avoid it is to fly after San Jose's curfew.

It's not a communication problem, it's just all the purple 737s.

I'd have flown that route over Lexington Reservoir and Watsonville. Much prettier for the passengers, and pretty close to direct.
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Maybe he wanted better forced landing options by following the valley.
 
Thanks all for the excellent replies.

@Qotile and @Palmpilot -- Thanks for the suggested phrasing. Will try those next time.

As for the purple 737s (following the valley) and Lexington Reservoir route (over the hills) -- I tried both and both were fantastic with different pros & cons. The Lexington Reservoir route had some medium turbulence (just me and I didn't mind, but a pax probably would have). It also had incredibly scenery, and what looked like some possible yet non-optimal forced landing options. Coming back from KMRY, I was more explicit when calling ATC and said I'd go via the LICKE intersection (at the end of the valley). Smoother air and tons of wide open fields if needed. Had a fantastic traffic call-out of a purple 737 turning left-base for SJC: "traffic opposite direction same altitude 6 miles is a 737 turning base". Coming up the west side of the valley (over the Pruneyard and then Apple campus), while looking up the bay towards SF was great.

@Palmpilot -- you got it: prefer the better landing options near/over the valley. Also completely agree not needing ATC to "route me" -- poor choice of words on my part posting to the forum & definitely not what I asked or was looking for from ATC.

Thanks again all :)
 
bobmrg said:
From the AIM:

" b. The single, most important thought in pilot-controller communications is understanding. It is essential, therefore, that pilots acknowledge each radio communication with ATC by using the appropriate aircraft call sign. Brevity is important, and contacts should be kept as brief as possible, but controllers must know what you want to do before they can properly carry out their control duties. And you, the pilot, must know exactly what the controller wants you to do. Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across. Pilots are to maintain vigilance in monitoring air traffic control radio communications frequencies for potential traffic conflicts with their aircraft especially when operating on an active runway and/or when conducting a final approach to landing."

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
This
 
Palmpilot said:
Maybe he wanted better forced landing options by following the valley.
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There are actually quite a number of survivable forced landing options around there. Just not on highway 17. There are a number of small farms and vineyards that will do if you need it.

Having said that, there haven't been any crashes in those mountains over the past several years. There have been several between Gilroy and Hollister, even with the "better" options.

Moderate turbulence is doubtful unless you're very low. That means you're having airspeed excursions. I've never experienced worse than light there. I've found some moderate once right over the Bay not far out of Oakland.
 
Well, it's his decision to make. I fly it the way you do, but I have a policy of not trying to talk other pilots out of being more cautious than I am. :dunno:
 
I don't have local knowledge of your area so I am surprised you get vectored by ATC on a VFR flight following. It is called "flight following" for a reason, not "flight directing". They just follow you on radar and might issue a traffic advisory for safety.

Are you, by any chance, discussing a controlled airspace such as Charlie or Bravo? In that case, I'd understand why you provide route and receive vectors.
 
BigBadLou said:
I don't have local knowledge of your area so I am surprised you get vectored by ATC on a VFR flight following. It is called "flight following" for a reason, not "flight directing". They just follow you on radar and might issue a traffic advisory for safety.
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The route he was on is the arrival corridor into SJC which gets a steady stream of commerical traffic and it is common to get vectors from ATC while on FF VFR to get you across/around it. Yes you can cancel and fly where you want but to me that is part of the game while being on FF. They will vector ya if there is a potential conflict with an arrival.

Had he indicated he wanted to go via E16 which is perfectly fine to say, he would have been most likely given instructions to remain East of highway 101 with keeps you clear of the arrival path but from his position to E16 direct would be head on with descending purple 737 jets.

Yeah, part of that is local knowledge. There is a corridor between highway 101 and the Ridgeline from GILRO to SJC that you can cross but you don't wanna be zipping up and down in above 4000'
 
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Not so much direct E16. That works OK from PAO, as it is entirely west of SJC extended center lines. But SJC LICKE is gonna have a vector. Almost unavoidable -- it's directly head on into landing 737s. And it's inside Class C, so the "you can't get vectors in class E" guys are off base.

The right answer for the second question is to state your correct destination. Which is Palo Alto, not Livermore. You can tell the controller you're maneuvering south of Livermore first, but they will expect you to land at your destination.
 
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