Commercial rating.

amoel

amoel

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amoel
Hello Guys,

I have a question regarding the 300 nm trip requirement.

I have done such a trip when I flew from San Diego (MYF) to Las Vegas (HND) to Grand Canyon (GCN) to Van Nuys (VNY) and back to San Diego over a period of four days. Two questions:

1- I did this trip over four days and not in one day, is this a problem?
2- Most importantly, my wife and daughters were on the airplane.

I see in some places that this is supposed to be a Solo flight, what do you think? Does any of this two items discualify the trip?

Thanks,

AM.
 
Solo means solo unless you have a CFI on board. The assumption is that a CFI knows well enough to just sit there and act like an empty seat while you do all of the actual work.
 
Wouldn't think so. There is no time requirement for the trip in the CFRs and solo refers to the pilot. Solo vs. dual. Since you're a certificated pilot, it's Ok to carry passengers with you. You already have your instrument rating?
 
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Not ok to have passangers unless they happen to be a CFI with tape across their mouths, sitting on their hands...

61.129
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

If there is a question about what "solo" means, the definition is: 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
 
That looks to be correct, except with the "CFI on board" option, it wouldn't be logged as solo. Good luck on the checkrides Red!
 
Thanks.

I didn't want to look like I was trying to sharpshoot you, just trying to "impart knowledge" as the handbook says. ;)
 
Thanks guys! I guess I will fly a similar route again by myself. The perfect excuse for going to Vegas by myself :)
 
amoel said:
Thanks guys! I guess I will fly a similar route again by myself. The perfect excuse for going to Vegas by myself :)
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Or you could take a side ladyfriend to Vegas and use your logbook as rock solid evidence of your faithfulness to your main ladyfriend.
 
I would really like to know the FAAs rationale with no passengers. They can't assist with the flying so why does it matter?
 
FlyingTiger said:
I would really like to know the FAAs rationale with no passengers. They can't assist with the flying so why does it matter?
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My guess is that they want you to do everything on your own. Even if the other person has no flight experience, they are still an extra set of eyes that can help out in some way.
 
FlyingTiger said:
I would really like to know the FAAs rationale with no passengers. They can't assist with the flying so why does it matter?
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Actually, they can, in many ways, if you're clever and believe in full use of all resources available inside the airplane. And that is why the FAA wants it done either truly alone or with an instructor to certify that you did it all yourself.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, they can, in many ways, if you're clever and believe in full use of all resources available inside the airplane. And that is why the FAA wants it done either truly alone or with an instructor to certify that you did it all yourself.
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Ok, so what about both CFI and passengers on board. I flew from Northeast PA to Florida and back a few days later. I had my CFI in the right seat and we flew IFR for training purposes. The passengers were friends in the back seat. So does this not count toward the commercial requirement because (1) I had passengers on board (CFI on board doesn't change this); (2) the CFI was giving instruction during the flight; (3) Doesn't count for both reasons or (4) It does count.
 
FlyingTiger said:
Ok, so what about both CFI and passengers on board. I flew from Northeast PA to Florida and back a few days later. I had my CFI in the right seat and we flew IFR for training purposes. The passengers were friends in the back seat. So does this not count toward the commercial requirement because (1) I had passengers on board (CFI on board doesn't change this); (2) the CFI was giving instruction during the flight; (3) Doesn't count for both reasons or (4) It does count.
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Answer 3
 
Answer 2. There is nothing in the regulation saying that no one other than the instructor be aboard during a "simulated solo". The instructor's signature attests to the fact that the pilot did it all without assistance.
 
Ron Levy said:
Answer 2. There is nothing in the regulation saying that no one other than the instructor be aboard during a "simulated solo". The instructor's signature attests to the fact that the pilot did it all without assistance.
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This must be incorrect because it applies logic to a situation. We all know this goes against the intent of a large part of the FARs.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
 
amoel said:
Hello Guys,

I have a question regarding the 300 nm trip requirement.

I have done such a trip when I flew from San Diego (MYF) to Las Vegas (HND) to Grand Canyon (GCN) to Van Nuys (VNY) and back to San Diego over a period of four days. Two questions:

1- I did this trip over four days and not in one day, is this a problem?
2- Most importantly, my wife and daughters were on the airplane.

I see in some places that this is supposed to be a Solo flight, what do you think? Does any of this two items discualify the trip?

Thanks,

AM.
Click to expand...

Time, not a problem. Family, problem.
 
In regard to the three points requirement, does that include the landing back at the home airport or does that mean 3 landings at other airports during the trip. I am thinking of flying to Portland Maine (282 nm) followed by a short trip to Brunswick (22nm) and then a straight shot home (304 nm). Does this meet the requirement or do I need to stop somewhere on the way back?
 
FlyingTiger said:
In regard to the three points requirement, does that include the landing back at the home airport or does that mean 3 landings at other airports during the trip.
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It could be a round-robin (A to B to C back to A, with landings at B, C, and A), or it could be a long straight line (A to B to C to D, with landings at B, C, and D).

I am thinking of flying to Portland Maine (282 nm) followed by a short trip to Brunswick (22nm) and then a straight shot home (304 nm). Does this meet the requirement or do I need to stop somewhere on the way back?
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Yes, it does -- with 54nm straight line distance (and over 300 nm total distance) to spare. Just remember to be solo, or with your instructor acting as ballast and signing your logbook appropriately.
 
I thought I only had 4nm to spare? Sounds like I may be making this longer then I need to. So based on your comment Ron, I only need to go 250nm straight line distance and then I can fly back, stopping at another airport in route home.

If that's correct, then why do they say it needs to be 300nm? If they require at least one leg 250nm, that means a round trip flight of at least 500nm, so why bother with a 300nm requirement? EDIT: Is that for a one way flight perhaps?
 
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FlyingTiger said:
I thought I only had 4nm to spare? Sounds like I may be making this longer then I need to. So based on your comment Ron, I only need to go 250nm straight line distance and then I can fly back, stopping at another airport in route home.
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That's exactly what 61.129(a)(4)(i) says:
One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
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If that's correct, then why do they say it needs to be 300nm? If they require at least one leg 250nm, that means a round trip flight of at least 500nm, so why bother with a 300nm requirement? EDIT: Is that for a one way flight perhaps?
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Bingo -- see my A-B-C-D example, above. I suppose one could do this as "simulated solo" with an instructor riding shotgun (silently) and a second trainee, with one flying the outbound and the other flying the return, and the non-flying trainee on each leg observing from the back seat.
 
FlyingTiger said:
I thought I only had 4nm to spare? Sounds like I may be making this longer then I need to. So based on your comment Ron, I only need to go 250nm straight line distance and then I can fly back, stopping at another airport in route home.

If that's correct, then why do they say it needs to be 300nm? If they require at least one leg 250nm, that means a round trip flight of at least 500nm, so why bother with a 300nm requirement? EDIT: Is that for a one way flight perhaps?
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pretty much
 
red4golf said:
Solo means solo unless you have a CFI on board. The assumption is that a CFI knows well enough to just sit there and act like an empty seat while you do all of the actual work.
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BINGO.
 
Thanks Ron, you're always very helpful. I very well may be contacting you to hammer out my instrument later this year.
 
I stopped logging solo after my check ride. I don't, as a rule, log if I carry passengers on a particular flight. Do other pilots log whether or not pax happen to be aboard? If not, who's to know. I happen to think the solo requirement for a certificated pilot is stupid. Any assistance a non-pilot passenger could provide would hardly make any difference. Get real. Another set of eyes might enhance safety, however, and we wouldn't want that!
 
Witmo said:
... I happen to think the solo requirement for a certificated pilot is stupid. Any assistance a non-pilot passenger could provide would hardly make any difference. Get real.
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Get real? OK, I'll try.......

I know and/or have trained many pilots who have passengers that are spouses, relatives or friends that have spent enough time in the cockpit that they are in varying degrees adept at handling radios, reading charts, even flying the airplane.

The whole idea of solo flight requirements, and especially the "solo" requirement for the long Commercial cross-country, are to demonstrate single pilot CRM.

Now maybe all of YOUR passengers have been collectively dumber than a box of rocks, but most are quite capable of providing assistance to the pilot in many ways other than looking out the window.
 
Witmo said:
I happen to think the solo requirement for a certificated pilot is stupid. Any assistance a non-pilot passenger could provide would hardly make any difference.
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Question for you. If you were facing serious heart surgery, would you be comfortable with a surgeon who has never made the cut with his own hands with no help from others?
 
nosehair said:
Question for you. If you were facing serious heart surgery, would you be comfortable with a surgeon who has never made the cut with his own hands with no help from others?
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Is he a board certified surgeon? I'm not a surgeon and I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. I doubt any surgeon operates without a bunch of supporting cast ever. I'm a certificated pilot. The FAA has already signed off that I can fly solo cross countries with or without passengers because I had to do so to earn a PPSEL. Suddenly everyone suspects pilots of not being able to fly cross country without the help of passengers just because he's going for the commercial ticket. What purpose does it serve having a CFI with tape across his mouth and sitting on his hands along on the flight? I suppose if he opens his mouth to offer a suggestion 2 and a half hours into a 3 hour cross country flight it negates the flight for commercial training purposes. Yeah, right.
 
Witmo said:
I'm a certificated pilot. The FAA has already signed off that I can fly solo cross country
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Yes, they have; at the Private Pilot skill, knowledge, & experience level.
But I understand your frustration. The problem is that most pilots, students, instructors, AND DPEs, treat the x/c like another $100 hamburger flight.
An ethical student, instructor, school, and DPE, will create x/c scenarios that would occur as a hired commercial pilot/ air taxi having to jump out in the middle of the night in questionable weather to a mountainous terrain destination with only an ADF ...
or stuff like that.
But really, the purpose of the required dual and solo x/c is supposed to prepare you to be a pilot for hire. Which is different than a private Pilot.
 
Witmo said:
... I'm a certificated pilot. The FAA has already signed off that I can fly solo cross countries with or without passengers because I had to do so to earn a PPSEL. Suddenly everyone suspects pilots of not being able to fly cross country without the help of passengers just because he's going for the commercial ticket..
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This is getting silly. You don't understand...because you don't WANT to understand.

Whether you're seeking an instrument rating or a commercial or ATP certificate, you're expected to have better knowledge and skill sets than you had at the private pilot level.

Yea, right!
 
MikeELP said:
This is getting silly. You don't understand...because you don't WANT to understand.

Whether you're seeking an instrument rating or a commercial or ATP certificate, you're expected to have better knowledge and skill sets than you had at the private pilot level.

Yea, right!
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I certainly understand that. Explain to me how having or not having passengers changes that. A commercial piot candidate is being prepared to fly paying passengers by not being allowed to fly with non-paying passengers. Gottit. Since the FAA relies on his honesty logging solo cross country time what difference is there in relying on his honesty in not utilizing passengers for other than safety observers? His commercial pilot skills are evaluated when he flies with his instructor who endorses him for the check ride and the examiner who tests him--not the passenger(s) he might have flown cross-country with.
 
solo means solo.mi had about 300 hours of long cross country flights that didnt qualified for the cpl requirement. fortunately, long ago i logged the specific required floghts with a cfi just to be on the safe side and not get bored enroute.
 
Witmo said:
I certainly understand that. Explain to me how having or not having passengers changes that. A commercial piot candidate is being prepared to fly paying passengers by not being allowed to fly with non-paying passengers. Gottit. Since the FAA relies on his honesty logging solo cross country time what difference is there in relying on his honesty in not utilizing passengers for other than safety observers? His commercial pilot skills are evaluated when he flies with his instructor who endorses him for the check ride and the examiner who tests him--not the passenger(s) he might have flown cross-country with.
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Only the one 300nm x/c is required to be solo. Sort of a proving demonstration, which is really the sole justification for solo.
But you have a point with passengers. There should be a requirement for passenger flights with attempts at overloading, whining about the delays, wx, etc.
Which is my point about the 50 hours x/c should be, in part, demonstrating increasingly difficult commercial situations.
Individuals can do that. It shouldn't take a regulation to seek out all you can in your training experience.
And in this case, it doesn't cost a nickel more. ya gotta fly the 50 hrs x/c. suck all the experience you can from them.
 
Witmo said:
I certainly understand that. Explain to me how having or not having passengers changes that. A commercial piot candidate is being prepared to fly paying passengers by not being allowed to fly with non-paying passengers. Gottit. Since the FAA relies on his honesty logging solo cross country time what difference is there in relying on his honesty in not utilizing passengers for other than safety observers? His commercial pilot skills are evaluated when he flies with his instructor who endorses him for the check ride and the examiner who tests him--not the passenger(s) he might have flown cross-country with.
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:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Again, Tim....you're just not getting it.
 
Repetition is only effective if the recipient is willing to receive.
 
Perhaps Commercial checkrides should be 5 hours long, so the DPE can sit there and make sure that the pilot has the skills to complete the 300NM trip without help.. And then the required maneuvers, etc...

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it....
 
ja_user said:
Perhaps Commercial checkrides should be 5 hours long, so the DPE can sit there and make sure that the pilot has the skills to complete the 300NM trip without help.. And then the required maneuvers, etc...

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it....
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That makes more sense than not being allowed to count a cross country flown with a wife and kid along for company. There's no telling how many mistakes or near death occurrences happened on a solo cross country--only that Joe Bag-a-donuts made it from point a to point b without anyone to say different aboard. That's all it does. It certainly does nothing to prove a pilot can safely transport passengers. I maintain that carrying passengers is more challenging a flight than not for the commercial candidate as long as the passenger isn't Capt Sullenberger sitting in the right seat. And if he was sitting in the right seat, the commercial candidate still would have learned more than if he was alone in the cockpit droning from a to b.
 
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