Commercial question

Arbiter419

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CAucker
Hi there everyone,

I'm in a instrument pilot and currently working on my commercial. I have about 100 hours of time to build before I can take a checkride. My question is this...there is a skydiving operation just to the northwest of Beaver, but the pilots aren't compensated for their time. It's strictly volunteer and just a way to build time. Would I, as a non commercial pilot, be able to fly jumpers at this place?


Thanks very much!
 
The FAA has said that unpaid/free hours in your logbook = compensation = same as getting paid.
 
Do they have a glider operation nearby? Didn't the FAA state that PP could tow gliders without a Commercial?
 
Do they have a glider operation nearby? Didn't the FAA state that PP could tow gliders without a Commercial?

yes, as is written in the FAR's, private pilots can tow gliders for compensation or hire.
 
Yup, I put in an email in to a place about an hour drive south of Beaver and one a little over an hour to the northwest in Ohio. Towing gliders would be great fun, I'm sure I'd have a good time with it. Tony, what do you guys generally look for in a tow pilot?
 
yes, as is written in the FAR's, private pilots can tow gliders for compensation or hire.

If I tow a 'chuter, and he does AFF after release is he considered a glider?
 
Yup, I put in an email in to a place about an hour drive south of Beaver and one a little over an hour to the northwest in Ohio. Towing gliders would be great fun, I'm sure I'd have a good time with it. Tony, what do you guys generally look for in a tow pilot?

smooth and a high level of situational awareness. I see they tow with a super cub. how much tailwheel time do you have?
 
smooth and a high level of situational awareness. I see they tow with a super cub. how much tailwheel time do you have?

I just saw that...unfortunately 0 tailwheel time. Been looking for quite some time, no luck. Apparently there is a CFI with a cub on the field, I have no idea if he's looking for students though. I'll have to ask around.
 
Not sure how the FAA regs stack up against this idea (as it is sometimes done in Australia, but more to make some money for the operator than provide compensation in the way of logbook hours)

Instead of doing the flying for free, couldn't you ask to be billed? e.g. $10 a tach/hobbs hour or something?
 
I just saw that...unfortunately 0 tailwheel time. Been looking for quite some time, no luck. Apparently there is a CFI with a cub on the field, I have no idea if he's looking for students though. I'll have to ask around.

I've never heard anyone regret getting the endorsement.

you should join the glider club anyway. looks like they have a good little group there and you'll have fun learning to fly
 
I've never heard anyone regret getting the endorsement.

you should join the glider club anyway. looks like they have a good little group there and you'll have fun learning to fly

Oh, believe me I'd love to. Just haven't found a way to get it done yet. And yeah, I think I will go down and see what it's all about one of these days.

Not sure how the FAA regs stack up against this idea (as it is sometimes done in Australia, but more to make some money for the operator than provide compensation in the way of logbook hours)

Instead of doing the flying for free, couldn't you ask to be billed? e.g. $10 a tach/hobbs hour or something?

That is an interesting idea, does anyone know if this would hold water in the states?
 
I've never heard anyone regret getting the endorsement.

you should join the glider club anyway. looks like they have a good little group there and you'll have fun learning to fly
Doesn't glider time count for some of the commercial ASEL experience requirements as well? If so he'd gain whether towing or being towed.
 
The FAA has said that unpaid/free hours in your logbook = compensation = same as getting paid.
Anyone have a reference, ie., an official Letter of Interpretation from FAA Legal, or something that is legally binding on all of us?
 
Doesn't glider time count for some of the commercial ASEL experience requirements as well? If so he'd gain whether towing or being towed.

yes all flight time counts towards the 250 total hours required for the commercial airplane cert. i *believe* that at least 100 hr of those have to be in powered aircraft for an ASEL cert, but haven't read the rule in a while.
 
Not sure how the FAA regs stack up against this idea (as it is sometimes done in Australia, but more to make some money for the operator than provide compensation in the way of logbook hours)

Instead of doing the flying for free, couldn't you ask to be billed? e.g. $10 a tach/hobbs hour or something?

no, $10/hr won't cut it unless that's the majority portion of the total hourly costs. private pilots can "cost share" with passengers, but the pilot must still pay the majority of the expenses to be legal.
 
Anyone have a reference, ie., an official Letter of Interpretation from FAA Legal, or something that is legally binding on all of us?
Sure. One of them was referred to earlier - the Chief Counsel letter regarding glider towing that was later changed in the specific area of glider towing by 61.113(g).

Going back to 1990:

==============================
With regard to this second prong of Section 61.118, the agency has repeatedly taken the position that building up flight time is considered compensatory in nature when the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft and would, therefore, be deemed a form of "compensation" to the private pilot under Section 61.118.
==============================
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.pdf

So, at least as of some 11 years ago, the FAA had already "repeatedly taken the position" that free flight time in exchange for providing a service may be considered compensation. There are a number of later interpretive letters that reaffirm the concept.
 
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no, $10/hr won't cut it unless that's the majority portion of the total hourly costs. private pilots can "cost share" with passengers, but the pilot must still pay the majority of the expenses to be legal.

The wording is "pro rata" not "majority".

Also, compensation doesn't have to be to the pilot. If the company that enables the pilot to fly is compensated, then that flight is for compensation.

Finally, for expense sharing, it's got to be for a common purpose other than the flight itself. The pilot taking jumpers up can never be for a common purpose unless the plane can land without a pilot.

The options to get paid to fly as non-commercial are:
* Work somewhere that you have to travel, and fly yourself. Reimbursement is allowed if it's incidental.

* Fly yourself and others you know or work with somewhere that everyone (including you) are going to participate. Common purpose rule applies, and you can split the cost of the flight, but not be reimbursed for it.

* Fly for a charity. Your operating expenses can be reimbursed, and they can receive money.

* Work for an aircraft sales company and provide demonstration flights to prospective customers. Must have 200 hours, but can get paid and have flight expenses reimbursed or provided for free.

Anything else requires a commercial license (and if holding out to the public, an air carrier cert).

There are TONS of threads on this topic and the rules haven't substantially changed in decades. No amount of "maybe if I just..." will work to get around any of the rules. Either you're sneaky and don't get caught, or you get caught (maybe even in the distant future) and get fined, revoked, etc. Or maybe you don't, but then go to work for an air carrier and they deny you because they figured out from your logs what you did (Oh, that plane is owned by billyjoebob's banner tow company, and you had only 130 hours...)

I found the reference I liked:
http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/186346-1.html
 
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xaminmo, you forgot to include the glider towing that was discussed earlier in your list.


 
xaminmo, you forgot to include the glider towing that was discussed earlier in your list.

Nope. Left it out on purpose. The willflyforfree post #3 listed above quotes FAA counsel, though I prefer to take the FAA link instead:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.pdf

According to FAA counsel, you can tow gliders as a private pilot for free if you don't log the time. If you do log the time, the logged time is compensation, and you must be Commercially rated to do so.

My understanding of the point of the restrictions for any type of flight certificate is the limitation of risk to people other than the pilot. Compensation is a conflict of interest to the safety of flight. Only Commercially rated pilots (or higher) are considered to have a high enough minimum level of safety to compensate for the increased exposure to others.

As a private pilot, you're not considered skilled nor disciplined enough to do things which would compel you to carry larger numbers of people. Risk incident/accident risks are greatest with less than 100 hours in type, and higher in single pilot operations than pilot + CFI or pilot + copilot. Private Pilot as a tow pilot to build time for their commercial ticket would likely be in both high-risk groups.
 
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Nope. Left it out on purpose. The willflyforfree post #3 listed above quotes FAA counsel, though I prefer to take the FAA link instead:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.pdf

According to FAA counsel, you can tow gliders as a private pilot for free if you don't log the time.

I'll see your chief counsel's letter and raise you one. That opinion was overridden by a change in the FARs later in the 90's and then a subsequent opinion issued about seven months ago.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Umphres.pdf
 
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Yeah, you gotta keep up to date. A reg change 14 years ago and and a later Chief Counsel opinion based on it make a lot of difference.
 
I promise I searched the web, but there are just so many opinions on the FAA site... :)

+10 points to AlaskaFlyer
 
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