Commercial night requirements vs. ForeFlight?

[StraightnLevel]

Question:

I'm working towards Commercial, and the only remaining gap in my flight experience is towered-field night takeoffs/landings.

Looking at the Foreflight report, it shows a lower number of both takeoffs and landings than I get when I count up my flights. For most of them, I've taken off from a non-towered field, flown to a towered field and done 2-3 laps in the pattern, then flown back to the non-towered field. Does FF know how top count which T/O and landings are at night, and which are at towered fields? I'd like to be able to just show the FF report to the DPE with everything green, but I don't want to waste a whole bunch of unnecessary flight time to fight a flaw in the program.

Does anyone here know how FF counts To and landings?

 

[farangutan]

Have you searched the user guide? I haven't made it to the logbook section but there's a lot of useful info in there to max out the utility of the program.

 

[DGlaeser]

You can manually update the info if the automatic count is wrong.

 

[rhkennerly]

FF does its best, but it’s not perfect. Just adjust the log entry for each flight in the logbook to reflect what you actually did.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Are you reviewing and, if necessary, modifying your logbook entries before accepting them? Are you checking off you are solo (or PDPIC if applicable)?

 

[StraightnLevel]

Are you reviewing and, if necessary, modifying your logbook entries before accepting them? Are you checking off you are solo?

Yes. I've.gone back through to ensure that the individual entries are all correct, with the flight traces attached.

The "solo" flag made a difference (I had missed one), but it appears to only count one T/O and landing per flight towards the requirements.

You can manually update the info if the automatic count is wrong.

How? The individual entries are correct. The issue is with the logbook readiness report, and I don't see any way to adjust it.

Have you searched the user guide?

There's a user guide? Hmmmm....

 

[midlifeflyer]

How? The individual entries are correct. The issue is with the logbook readiness report, and I don't see any way to adjust it.

And don’t forget to tap takeoff type.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There's a user guide? Hmmmm....

I guess this stuff should be obvious. Just a logbook. Much of it is, but once you get to some of the oddities of special flights to meet certain requirements, it can get a bit funky. And differen eLogs may do it differently. And some of it didn’t make the manual.

 

[StraightnLevel]

View attachment 150878

And don’t forget to tap takeoff type.

Yeah, I got all of that.

I suspect that the issue has to do with flying from a non-towered field to a towered field. I'm hangared at a non-towered field, so have to fly to KBPT or KEFD at night to get credit. 2 or 3 laps in the pattern, then back. I "think" it's only counting one towered night takeoff per flight.....but that could be a bad assumption.

 

[Hang 4]

Are you doing T&G or full stop, taxi back? I know in Garmin Pilot log, T&G's aren't counted as landings and you need to manually check and modify the log entry. I also don't know for commercial night if it requires a full stop?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, I got all of that.

I suspect that the issue has to do with flying from a non-towered field to a towered field. I'm hangared at a non-towered field, so have to fly to KBPT or KEFD at night to get credit. 2 or 3 laps in the pattern, then back. I "think" it's only counting one towered night takeoff per flight.....but that could be a bad assumption.

I don't use their logbook for myself, but I play with it from time to time, so we've pretty much exhausted my knowledge. Unless someone can figure it out, Id be asking FF support. If it's a single enery, I'd send them the entry and ask why it doesn't populate the report. Never know - it might be a bug.

 

[tonycondon]

Foreflight doesn't do the best. A DPE who just accepts the green checkmark blindly is far too trusting.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Foreflight doesn't do the best. A DPE who just accepts the green checkmark blindly is far too trusting.

Agreed, but a lack of a green check guarantees a deep-dive.

 

[rhkennerly]

Oh, you’re looking at REPORTS. whole different animal. Contact support. Dunno.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Are you doing T&G or full stop, taxi back? I know in Garmin Pilot log, T&G's aren't counted as landings and you need to manually check and modify the log entry. I also don't know for commercial night if it requires a full stop?

I'm doing full stops, but that may not be required.

61.129 just says VFR night, with each landing involving flight in the pattern.

 

[rhkennerly]

I recently abandoned FF for FlyQ, so I deleted my ff expert guide. What I normally do with manuals is upload the PDF to chatGPT and then ask it to research for me. You can try it. It helped me track down a lot of esoteric errors or fill holes in my knowledge.

 

[StraightnLevel]

View attachment 150878

And don’t forget to tap takeoff type.

Agreed - but here's what I'm seeing in the "details" screen under the main report:


Notice that there are 8 total night takeoffs listed in the right-hand column, but the upper-right counter shows only 4. In the "night towered landings" column none are shown, but the upper right graphic shows 7 (and I know that there are a lot more).

It makes no sense that I can decipher.....

What's really frustrating is that I have plenty of night-time flight experience...but most of it is at untowered airports [with cheap fuel].

 

[Lindberg]

Agreed - but here's what I'm seeing in the "details" screen under the main report:

View attachment 150884
Notice that there are 8 total night takeoffs listed in the right-hand column, but the upper-right counter shows only 4. under "night towered landings none are shown, but the upper right graphic shows 7 (and I know that there are a lot more).

It makes no sense that I can decipher.....

What's really frustrating is that I have plenty of night-time flight experience...but most of it is at untowered airports [with cheap fuel].

If a route has towered and non-towered airports, Foreflight can only guarantee that at least one of the landings was at a towered field, and unless the towered field is in the beginning or middle of the route, it can't be assured of any takeoffs there.

 

[StraightnLevel]

If a route has towered and non-towered airports, Foreflight can only guarantee that at least one of the landings was at a towered field, and unless the towered field is in the beginning or middle of the route, it can't be assured of any takeoffs there.

Still not sure how this makes sense. When the track log clearly shows several laps in the pattern at a towered airport (KBPT), then more laps in the pattern at a different towered airport (KEFD), why wouldn't it see that only the initial T/O and final landing at the untowered field would be excluded?

 

[Lindberg]

Still not sure how this makes sense. When the track log clearly shows several laps in the pattern at a towered airport (KBPT), then more laps in the pattern at a different towered airport (KEFD), why wouldn't it see that only the initial T/O and final landing at the untowered field would be excluded?

You're assuming 1) the logbook logic is taking into account all 3D information from the tracklog and not just routing, and 2) that it has sufficient fidelity to determine you've made a landing. Also, how would foreflight know whether the tower was operating?

If you log out manually and foreflight still doesn't get it, just switch to MyFlightbook.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Also, how would foreflight know whether the tower was operating?

It's published in the field info, so I would assume FF can "see" this the same way as it "sees" the local sunrise/sunset and civil twilight times to determine night vs. day operations.

 

[Lindberg]

It's published in the field info, so I would assume FF can "see" this the same way as it "sees" the local sunrise/sunset and civil twilight times to determine night vs. day operations.

I think you're assuming far too much intelligence. Regardless, expect your DPE to want to see the actual flights, not the Foreflight checkboxes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You're assuming 1) the logbook logic is taking into account all 3D information from the tracklog and not just routing, and 2) that it has sufficient fidelity to determine you've made a landing. Also, how would foreflight know whether the tower was operating?

I don't think he's assuming anything like that. Sure, track logs have minimal information. But that only gives you a logbook entry draft. You still edit and complete it before moving it to the logbook.

If I understand @StraightnLevel's comments, he is manually telling the logbook that he has done W number of takeoffs, X number of landing, and that Y of the takeoffs and Z of the landings took place at a towered airport at night. Fields for all that exist in the app. For some reason the report is just not counting them. I've been playing a little with it putting numbers in that far exceed the requirements, but they are not showing up as completion of that task.

I'm voting "Bug." Maybe even a known bug.

 

[dmspilot]

Vibe coded trash

 

[Lindberg]

I don't think he's assuming anything like that. Sure, track logs have minimal information. But that only gives you a logbook entry draft. You still edit and complete it before moving it to the logbook.

If I understand @StraightnLevel's comments, he is manually telling the logbook that he has done W number of takeoffs, X number of landing, and that Y of the takeoffs and Z of the landings took place at a towered airport at night. Fields for all that exist in the app. For some reason the report is just not counting them. I've been playing a little with it putting numbers in that far exceed the requirements, but they are not showing up as completion of that task.

I'm voting "Bug." Maybe even a known bug.

View attachment 150893

Then Myflightbook is the answer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Then Myflightbook is the answer.

MyFlightBook usually is the answer. It's the difference between a dedicated logbook and an EFB add-on. I've never expected the add-ons to be as robust. But on this item, I'm not sure even MFB handles it perfectly. Extra steps are definitely required.

 

[frfly172]

My flightbook handles keeping track of the night hours according to the clock in the area.

 

[Lindberg]

MyFlightBook usually is the answer. It's the difference between a dedicated logbook and an EFB add-on. I've never expected the add-ons to be as robust. But on this item, I'm not sure even MFB handles it perfectly. Extra steps are definitely required.

I don't do any automatic tracking and log everything manually, but myflightbook correctly shows that I have the required takeoffs and landings for the commercial.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I'm voting "Bug." Maybe even a known bug.

View attachment 150893

It's starting to look like a bug.

I flew to KEFD last night to do some laps in the pattern to try to get over the hurdle, and found something very interesting. When I put my flight track into the logbook entry, I got the graphic that you C'n'P here, with the "towered" category showing. None of my other logbook entries have these - not one. The only options I have for any of the others are day and night.

Last night:


All prior entries look like this:


I've contacted FF support, but no helpful response yet.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's starting to look like a bug.

I flew to KEFD last night to do some laps in the pattern to try to get over the hurdle, and found something very interesting. When I put my flight track into the logbook entry, I got the graphic that you C'n'P here, with the "towered" category showing. None of my other logbook entries have these - not one. The only options I have for any of the others are day and night.

Last night:


All prior entries look like this:
View attachment 150905

I've contacted FF support, but no helpful response yet.

I can't speak for any of the other entries, but T41 is not a towered airport, so I wouldn't expect to see the towered airport landing choice. That's in the "how to" instructions. A towered airport must be in the From, To, or Enroute fields. It's certainly possible you have some old towered entries where you weren't originally give the option - the option hasn't always been there. But you should be able to add them now.

I think the bug is in the reporting because I made one entry with a towered airport and said I did as much as 15 night takeoffs and night landings towered and it didn't come through.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I can't speak for any of the other entries, but T41 is not a towered airport, so I wouldn't expect to see the towered airport landing choice. That's in the "how to" instructions. A towered airport must be in the From, To, or Enroute fields.

KEFD and KBPT are in the Route fields, so that's not the case. You are correct, though, that T41 (where I have a hangar) is untowered, so that confuses things.

I got a response from support, and it appears that it is (was) indeed a bug - or at least a new feature.

Apparently, the option to select towered field for landing and takeoff is new within the last few days. The support tech told me that I can update the needed entries by deleting them and re-entering, at which point I'll have the option of selecting "towered" for each and every entry.

Looks like I just got caught up in the timing of the new release.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Final update: I did what the tech support person suggested, by deleting and re-entering my log entries from the track logs. Once I did that, the towered/untowered options appeared in the new entries, and the report now properly reflects them.

Kudos to Foreflight tech support - they responded in a timely fashion and solved the problem.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Vibe coded trash

ForeFlight (and its logbook) have been around since long before vibe coding was a thing.

Maybe consider that they're trying to put FAA regulations in code...

My flightbook handles keeping track of the night hours according to the clock in the area.

So does ForeFlight.

 

[dmspilot]

ForeFlight (and its logbook) have been around since long before vibe coding was a thing.

Vibe coding has been a thing for over 3 years. Plenty of time to creep into their codebase. And then they laid off most of their developers several months ago.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Vibe coding has been a thing for over 3 years. Plenty of time to creep into their codebase. And then they laid off most of their developers several months ago.

ForeFlight Mobile for iOS has been a thing for 18 years, and the logbook for 11 years. There have not been any new features added to logbook since the developer layoff.

 

[dmspilot]

ForeFlight Mobile for iOS has been a thing for 18 years, and the logbook for 11 years.

Doesn't matter. New bugs are introduced in old code all the time. And vibe coding has accelerated this phenomenon.

There have not been any new features added to logbook since the developer layoff.

I got a response from support, and it appears that it is (was) indeed a bug - or at least a new feature.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Doesn't matter. New bugs are introduced in old code all the time. And vibe coding has accelerated this phenomenon.

Yes, it's a "new" feature... It's been in testing since last summer. Written by real devs.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, it's a "new" feature... It's been in testing since last summer. Written by real devs.

It’s almost as if there have never been bugs before vibe.