Colgan Q400 Down near KBUF?

Part 4
21:40:36.7
HOT-2
yeah.
21:40:37.2
HOT-1
anyway we started up ops check good. so filling out filling out the
paperwork. got the door closed and everything. it's got a little whiskey
hatch over here.
21:40:45.4
HOT-2
uh-huh.
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21:40:46.0
HOT-1
I'm handing the paperwork out. ding. #. right chip detect-- chip detect
again.
21:40:51.8
HOT-2
ohh.
21:40:52.8
HOT-1
so I shut it down told everybody yeah we're gonna have to get another
airplane. they had another airplane it was on a Saturday so they had
extra-- they had spares because of the schedule and everything.
21:41:01.9
HOT-2
yeah.
21:41:04.4
HOT-1
um so uh twenty minutes later we launch and get about halfway up there
uh over this one VOR and uh all of a sudden oh and uh uh I'll back up a
half a step. I was telling the--telling the FO this was like-- I don't know a
month after I upgraded to captain.
21:41:29.7
HOT-2
oh geez.
21:41:30.6
HOT-1
I said you know uh uh all this stuff is just happening to me. and it's-- you
know hell the only thing I haven't had is is an air return.
21:41:39.8
HOT-2
oh God.
21:41:40.8
HOT-1
so we get over this VOR headed to Alexandria. ding ding ding. that's not a
caution light that's a master warning.
21:41:48.5
HOT-2
yeah.
21:41:50.5
HOT-1
and uh looked up avionics smoke detector.
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21:41:56.2
HOT-2
ohh.
21:41:58.2
HOT-1
I'm going @ my FO cool as #. man should I get my uh smoke goggles on
and everything. said yeah gimme-- gimme the memory items. I'm-- I'm
over here. I don't smell anything. the avionics bay is right behind the
captain's seat.
21:42:15.9
HOT-2
yeah.
21:42:17.1
HOT-1
there's a little uh fire bottle. little uh rubber kind of cover thing that you can
stik the fire bottle into and blow it if you need to if you're actually on fire.
21:42:21.1
HOT-2
uh-huh...uh-huh.
21:42:28.2
HOT-1
I reach back in here and find it and uh I open it up because it's-- it's kind
of like a drainer in a sink.
21:42:35.5
HOT-2
yeah.
21:42:35.9
HOT-1
like over a garbage disposal. it's just kinda like this. and it's rubber and
you can push.
21:42:40.2
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:42:40.5
HOT-1
so I pushed it. man man I don't smell anything. called the flight attendant.
@ hey do you smell any smoke back there? no. why? should I?
21:42:53.3
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
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21:42:55.5
HOT-1
well no you shouldn't. I'm glad you don't. thanks for playing the game.
and-- and I just cut her off. good *. [sound of laughter]
21:43:04.3
HOT-2
nice.
21:43:05.9
HOT-1
she calls back well uh what-- what do you want me to do? I said naw
man uh I said I think it's just a false alarm. but uh I was just checking. we
just-- we've got a light up here that went off. I said I don't think there's
anything to it. so anyway she-- she was good with that. and uh we didn't
have ACARS-- we don't have ACARS in the Saabs. so I called uh
Manassas on ARINC. I said uh so uh what do you want me to do? go
back to Houston? continue on or what? call us when you get on the
ground in Alexandria. hey no problem. so they're gonna do a road trip and
change the smoke detector out.
21:43:23.7
HOT-2
yeah...yeah.
21:43:48.5
HOT-1
and uh sure enough by the next morning-- we were taking it out the next
morning they had-- they had come-- they did a road trip from Houston.
changed the deal out. away we went. of course after that day uh we all
went to the uh steakhouse. we ate a steak baked potato and drank a
messload of beer.
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Part 5
21:44:09.4
HOT-2
yeah.
21:44:10.2
HOT-1
it was just one of those-- one of those days. yeah.
21:44:12.1
HOT-2
one of those days where you have to have a few beers at the end.
21:44:16.4
HOT-1
that was that was a good time. I like flying the Saab. if-- if you upgrade to
the Saab-- I mean if you have the opportunity to upgrade to Saab versus
the Q and you want to get your PIC time.
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21:44:29.2
HOT-2
um-huh.
21:44:29.5
HOT-1
and uh you know and if that's uh you know a goal for you I guess go
ahead and do it.
21:44:34.0
HOT-2
yeah. um-huh.
21:44:35.8
HOT-1
that a neat airplane to fly. it's not like this.
21:44:38.2
HOT-2
yeah right.
21:44:40.1
HOT-1
I mean it's taking five steps backwards but you're in the left seat.
21:44:46.2
HOT-2
yeah.
21:44:46.5
HOT-1
it's-- it's like moms SUV or minivan. you know the soccer van uh you
don't have to fly with your hands and your feet. you just fly with your
hands.
21:44:59.2
HOT-2
yeah.
21:44:59.5
HOT-1
once you-- once you flip the auto-- uh the yaw damp on and autopilot on
it's solid as a rock.
21:45:05.2
HOT-2
works the rudders for you.
21:45:07.1
HOT-1
yeah it works rudders for you. it's all coordinated.
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21:45:09.9
HOT-2
I think it's fun flying with-- with captains. not so much any-- lately but
right at first that came from the Saab and they'd see-- they'd see the
rudder and they'd-- aww # and kick it really hard and fling the plane back
and forth.
21:45:23.8
HOT-1
kind of like I did a little while ago.
21:45:25.4
HOT-2
yeah kind of but uh at first I flew-- I flew with some captains that were
doing it really bad.
21:45:30.5
HOT-1
really.
21:45:30.9
HOT-2
like knock the flight attendants down in the back.
21:45:32.7
HOT-1
[sound of laughter]
21:45:34.5
HOT-2
like I'd see the flight attendants afterwards and they're like um who was
flying.
21:45:39.8
HOT-1
that would be that bonehead captain.
21:45:42.8
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
21:45:44.0
HOT-1
you know what? yeah I tell you I'm getting a lot more used to it. uh I'm not
saying I like it any better but I am getting used to it.
21:45:51.0
HOT-2
yeah.
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21:45:55.6
HOT-2
yeah I don't know what I want to do with the upgrade. I'm not entirely in
like a big rush to upgrade. um it would depend on where I'm based. just
because having to commute to be the bottom of the list is gonna suck.
and--.
21:46:07.0
HOT-1
true and-- and you know like you were talking about as far as uh right
now your wanting to buy a house and wanting to have--.
21:46:13.6
HOT-2
exactly if I hold off-- you know if it's a matter of holding on a few months
well then I'll be making a substantial amount more money in the-- in the
Q than I would in the Saab.
21:46:22.0
HOT-1
right.
21:46:22.9
HOT-2
depending you know how-- how long would it be to make that worth my
while. would it-- would I make more money upgrading into the Saab right
away or would I make more money if I waited for the Q for a little while.
21:46:32.6
HOT-1
well think of it this way uh if you-- if you stayed on the on the Q obviously
you're gonna-- you're not making the captain rate.
21:46:42.0
HOT-2
right.
21:46:42.5
HOT-1
but you may have a better quality of life to begin with uhh with regards to
buying a house and having a schedule to where you you know you could
work around and you could be--.
21:46:55.3
HOT-2
exactly.
21:46:55.6
HOT-1
you know home with your husband to to take care of all that kind of stuff.
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21:46:59.6
HOT-2
exactly yeah it's just gonna depend where we're at when that happens.
but I-- I mean I'm not-- I'm not in such a hurry to upgrade. I've got very
very very good connections at Alaska.
21:47:10.4
HOT-2
oh cool.
21:47:11.2
HOT-2
Alaska's the only major I'd want to go to.
21:47:13.2
HOT-1
yeah.
21:47:13.5
HOT-2
just because I don't want to commute my whole life...so um once I do
upgrade you know once once Alaska starts hiring I don't-- I mean I don't
necessarily have to have a thousand hours PIC. I need to have some PIC.
21:47:25.7
HOT-1
you don't have to with uh Alaska?
21:47:26.8
HOT-2
um it it depends. you you you do and on paper you do but it just-- it it
depends who you know. if you know people then you can kind of sneak
away with it a little bit. I definitely need to have you know the proper
experience you need to be qualified. but if I have--.
21:47:36.6
HOT-1
huh...sure.
21:47:40.4
HOT-2
you know if at about five hundred hours they said to to go and interview
and then I can interview and they can say we want you to have a
thousand hours. so once you get a thousand hours um we're gonna put
you into ground school. they'll say stuff like that.
21:47:53.9
HOT-1
okay.
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Part 6
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21:47:54.3
HOT-2
so I mean it depends and I don't even know if that's the route I want to go
anymore...you know the more I think about it. I wouldn't I wouldn't mind
flying for FedEx or UPS.
21:48:09.3
HOT-1
FedEx is still big on military time and the uh and the internal
recommendations so those two things-- I mean that knocks me out of
FedEx for sure.
21:48:10.5
HOT-2
yeah...yeah.
21:48:18.0
HOT-1
but uh UPS like I said I got my cousin that uh flies seven fives seven six.
he's based in Ontario.
21:48:26.3
HOT-2
yeah.
21:48:27.2
HOT-1
uh not too far from where he lives. but uh.
21:48:36.3
HOT-2
yeah I wouldn't mind-- you know I could even see myself doing like I
mean for quality of life I could see myself doing cargo stuff and just I
mean like small stuff like there's a company that flies right out of my
hometown to Spokane Washington and back every night.
21:48:36.7
HOT-1
that's just--.
21:48:49.5
HOT
[tones similar to ACARS message reception]
21:48:51.2
HOT-2
and I'd do that three nights a week and be home. I could have kids and
raise a family. and I think that that might be more worth my while.
something like that.
21:48:58.5
HOT-1
yeah yeah.
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21:48:59.6
HOT-2
and it just depends. I don't even know. I'm I'm so in limbo right now it's
actually kind of kind of interesting. like I don't know where I'll be in a year.
I don't know where I'll be in--.
21:49:05.4
HOT-1
well just keep your eyes open you know and and keep you know keep
listening uhh and and something will come across er you know you'll know
whenever it's time.
21:49:18.2
HOT-2
yeah.
21:49:18.3
HOT-1
I've gotta do this. I've gotta-- I'm ready to move on. um [sound similar to
yawn] excuse me. it's kind of like me. you know I started this this little gig
late in life.
21:49:28.7
HOT-2
yeah.
21:49:28.9
HOT-1
oh it's like it's a second career for me basically because I-- I was able to
take that package with Verizon.
21:49:34.1
HOT-2
yeah.
21:49:35.5
HOT-1
but uh...you know it's...you know do I-- g-- at this point do I go to a major
and you know not be able to be there for very long.
21:49:48.8
HOT-2
yeah be an FO the rest of your life or...
21:49:51.8
HOT-1
uhh which-- that may not be a bad thing as long as I would be able to
progress and and uh and be a lifetime FO if you will.
21:50:02.9
HOT-2
yeah yeah.
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21:50:03.4
HOT-1
uh and just and and dwell upon the quality of life part of it or do I stay here
with Colgan and uh...
21:50:11.8
HOT-2
[sound similar to sneeze] excuse me.
21:50:15.2
HOT-1
and you know likewise do the quality of life. I don't have to make two
hundred thousand dollars a year er a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year
whatever you know I could--.
21:50:20.7
HOT-2
exactly.
21:50:23.8
HOT-1
I can certainly be comfortable on on a hundred thousand. um you got
traffic out there just it's crossing left to right.
21:50:32.9
HOT-2
uh in sight.
21:50:35.4
HOT-1
but uh--.
21:50:41.8
HOT-2
um winds are at two fifty at fifteen gusting twenty three they're using
runway--.
21:50:45.0
ZNY-C
Colgan three four zero seven contact Cleveland Center one two
four point three two.
21:50:48.8
RDO-2
one two four point three two Colgan three four zero seven.
21:50:53.1
HOT-2
one two four thirty two.
21:50:58.5
RDO-2
Cleveland Center Colgan thirty four zero seven sixteen thousand.
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21:51:02.1
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven Cleveland Center roger.
21:51:05.4
HOT-2
alright so it's the winds are at two five zero fifteen gusting twenty three
and they're using three two and two three. do you want to use uh--.
21:51:11.7
HOT-1
uh two three.
21:51:12.5
HOT-2
two three.
21:51:13.2
HOT-1
yeah.
21:51:13.7
HOT-2
okay.
21:51:16.3
HOT-1
and flaps fifteen.
21:51:18.3
HOT-2
okay.
21:51:21.7
HOT-2
uh it's runway two three.
21:51:23.8
HOT-1
ouch.
21:51:26.1
ZOB
Southwest six fifteen cleared direct to the Buffalo airport.
21:51:35.8
HOT-2
that us?
21:51:37.0
HOT-1
nope.
21:51:37.4
HOT-2
I didn't think so.
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21:51:38.6
HOT-1
yeah.
21:51:39.1
HOT-2
[sound of laughter] I just heard direct Buffalo.
21:51:42.0
HOT-2
uh does this look good to you? um...we've got TRAVA ILS two three
TRAVA KLUMP runway two three.
21:51:50.7
HOT-1
yeah TRAVA.
21:51:51.9
HOT-2
yeah here you go. and the EOA is in there.
21:51:59.4
HOT-1
thirty three.
21:52:05.1
HOT-1
try not to be dyslexic.
21:52:07.8
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
21:52:08.2
HOT-1
last time I flew in here two thirty uh-- two thirty three's the uh inbound
course. I put two twenty three.
21:52:14.2
HOT-2
oh geez. two thirty thirty three-- no * it's runway-- oh it is two thirty three?
21:52:19.6
HOT-1
it's two thirty three.
21:52:21.3
HOT-2
runway two three. oh yeah no that makes sense. now you got me
confused.
21:52:26.2
HOT-1
well I-- well I didn't mean to confuse you now. two three three.
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21:52:29.9
HOT-2
two three three.
21:52:31.0
HOT-1
and I'll brief it that way too.
21:52:32.6
HOT-2
alright it's two three three. [sound of laughter] we're good.
21:52:34.2
HOT-1
that's two three three.
21:52:57.2
HOT-2
alrighty and for the rest of that weather uh three miles. it's snowing with
some mist.
21:53:03.5
HOT-1
alright.
21:53:05.7
HOT-2
it didn't give me an RVR.
21:53:07.5
HOT-1
good...it's good.
21:53:10.9
HOT-2
that means it's far enough right?
21:53:13.9
HOT-1
yeah.
21:53:20.3
HOT-2
runway five then what do we have? one two nine two five.
21:53:40.2
HOT-2
alrighty your numbers. for flaps fifteen runway two three are eighteen and
fourteen.
21:53:47.5
HOT-1
alrighty eighteen and fourteen.
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21:53:49.7
HOT-2
we have to go around it's gonna be twenty five and forty five.
21:54:06.7
HOT-2
alrighty. I don't think we had any specials did we?
21:54:12.0
HOT-1
uh I don't believe we did.
21:54:13.6
HOT
[sound of double chime]
21:54:16.9
INT-3
hello.
21:54:17.2
INT-2
hey any specials?
21:54:18.6
INT-3
uh no we don't.
21:54:19.8
INT-2
no specials.
21:54:20.6
INT-3
nope.
21:54:20.8
INT-2
we should be there in about twenty twenty five minutes.
21:54:23.0
INT-3
fantastic.
21:54:23.9
INT-2
alright
21:54:24.1
INT-3
thanks bye.
21:54:58.5
HOT-2
yeah I kind of like that I'm so flexible with what I'm doing.
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21:55:01.3
CAM
[sound similar to seat track movement]
21:55:03.0
HOT-2
* I have goals but I have such a wide range of goals I don't know exactly
what I want.
21:55:05.3
HOT
[sound similar to double chime]
21:55:25.0
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven Cleveland.
21:55:28.1
RDO-2
thirty four zero seven go ahead.
21:55:30.2
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven reset your transponder. squawk
seven-- er uh two seven six two.
21:55:35.6
RDO-2
two seven six two Colgan thirty two-- thirty four zero seven.
21:55:39.9
HOT-2
oops I think I had two seven six two I think I put half and half. two seven
six two yeah. twenty five and then I switched that one. oops.
21:56:08.0
HOT-1
it's just like we're in I don't know just just a light haze or type cloud. I don't
know just we can see things out in front of us.
21:56:17.4
HOT-2
do you want to go down?
21:56:18.6
HOT-1
huh? ohh. I was thinking about that.
21:56:26.4
HOT-2
might be easier on my ears if we start going down sooner.
21:56:28.9
HOT-1
yeah we could do it. that's fine.
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21:56:31.6
RDO-2
and Center Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:56:35.6
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven uh say again?
21:56:35.9
HOT-1
get discretion to twelve.
21:56:38.7
RDO-2
oh yeah just can we get PD down to twelve thousand for Colgan
thirty four zero seven.
21:56:42.6
ZOB
uhh standby.
21:56:44.9
HOT-1
I got your standby.
21:56:46.5
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
21:57:07.1
HOT-1
we may have to wait for separation on this guy over here.
21:57:10.0
HOT-2
yeah.
21:57:10.8
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven cross BENEE at maintain one one
thousand.
21:57:15.7
RDO-2
BENEE at one one eleven thousand Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:57:20.5
HOT-2
BENEE at eleven.
21:57:21.3
HOT-1
tooo what was it?
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21:57:23.2
HOT-2
BENEE.
21:57:23.4
HOT-1
oh BENEE.
21:57:25.4
HOT-1
BENEE at one one thousand.
21:57:27.2
HOT-2
yes sir.
21:57:34.9
HOT-1
yeah that works.
21:58:31.1
HOT-1
you know we had a a controller down in Houston. uh he was known as
Mister Happy.
21:58:37.7
HOT-2
oh yeah.
21:58:38.4
HOT-1
guy was just he was-- had a perfect personality for the being a controller.
he never let anything rattle him. and he just all just all bubbly type a type a
guy. he retired-- just to let you know how he-- how well respected he
was um he retired and he had they published where his retirement party
was. there was pilots from Continental Colgan pilots Chautauqua
Expressjet you know the main carriers there in Houston.
21:59:09.2
HOT-2
oh that's cool.
21:59:12.3
HOT-1
they all went to go see you know Mister Happy and everything but but
that's where I got the bent wing pencil jet.
21:59:19.6
HOT-2
it's where what?
21:59:20.6
HOT-1
that's where I got the bent wing pencil jet uh name from.
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21:59:24.7
HOT-2
he calls them that?
21:59:26.4
HOT-1
yeah it was uh Jet Lincoln instead of Jetlink. called em Jet Lincoln and we
were Cold One.
21:59:29.0
HOT-2
uh-huh...oh.
21:59:32.4
HOT-1
Cold One nintey five sixty five you'll be following a bent wing pencil jet at
your one oh clock. two miles or whatever it was.
21:59:40.9
HOT-2
that's funny.
21:59:42.1
HOT-1
either that or you're following the lawn dart today. let's see uh if it was a
CRJ we're following the Barbie Jet.
21:59:45.6
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
21:59:52.2
HOT-2
the Barbie Jet.
21:59:59.5
HOT-1
or he would say you're following Chi-tak-wa.
22:00:03.3
HOT-1
[sound of laughter]
22:00:04.1
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
22:00:05.9
HOT-2
the guys that have fun and enjoy their jobs are so much more pleasant to
work with.
22:00:09.4
HOT-1
oh yeah.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-46
22:00:10.8
HOT-2
yeah.
22:00:16.2
HOT-1
College Station Texas was a a contract control tower.
22:00:23.0
HOT-2
yeah.
22:00:23.2
HOT-1
had a guy that worked in there. had an odd accent to begin with. and uh
College Station Airport is uh owned and operated by the university-- uh
the Texas A and M university.
22:00:37.8
ZOB
Mesaba thirty forty five contact Cleveland Center one two zero
point six.
22:00:39.7
HOT-2
uh-huh.
22:00:43.2
RDO-2
one two zero point six Colgan thirty four zero seven.
22:00:46.2
ZOB
nope Colgan thirty four zero seven you stay here. that was for
Mesaba.
22:00:49.8
HOT-2
oh.
22:00:51.7
HOT-2
I'm not doing very good by * tonight.
22:00:52.7
HOT-1
it's alright.
22:00:54.0
ZOB
Colgan thirty four zero seven you still here?
22:00:56.3
RDO-2
yes sir thirty four zero seven.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
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22:00:59.5
HOT-1
sorry about that. oh anyway he would say Eeeeeeeeastwood information
echo.
22:01:08.9
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
22:01:11.3
HOT-1
and he'd give us he'd give us same type of uh clearance to Houston.
Colgan ninety five twenty six you're cleared to the George Herbert Walker
er yeah George Herbert Walker Bush Intergalactical Airport.
22:01:27.6
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
22:01:28.1
HOT-1
instead of Intercontinental. Intergalactical Airport via the College Station
zero seven six. baaaseball Rice won. climb maintain seven thousand.
departure frequency is Houston Center one two three point seven.
squawk whatever you know.
22:01:36.8
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
22:01:47.6
HOT-2
yeah.
22:01:48.0
HOT-1
and I would try to read it back exactly the same way. went in there I don't
know you know about three or four months before I left and he was just all
calm and quiet. you know I could tell it was him said hey man what
happened to that Eeeeeeastwood Airport information echo. he said yeah
they clipped my wings.
22:02:09.7
HOT-2
oh no. they didn't like him doing that?
22:02:12.3
HOT-1
I said well uh if if you need uh if you need any help on that one you just let
me know who to call and I'll uh be glad to put in a good word for ya. and
he he chuckled. he said uh he said awww let it blow over for a little while
and I'll be back I'll be back to my regular self later.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-48
22:02:32.1
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
22:02:32.9
HOT-1
yeah.
22:02:36.4
HOT-1
I just like the flying down there a whole lot better.
22:02:39.1
HOT-2
yeah.
22:02:39.6
HOT-1
Click to expand...
 
Too bad. It sounds as if they had developed an attitude that they could fly through about any ice and paid little attention to the situation at hand. Unfortunately, being complacent bit them.
 
The TV this morning was "OMG! He only had 100 hours!" (in type).
 
jesse said:
Too bad. It sounds as if they had developed an attitude that they could fly through about any ice and paid little attention to the situation at hand. Unfortunately, being complacent bit them.
Click to expand...

Very true...and sad.

It's amazing how that comes across in the transcript.
 
smigaldi said:
A new article that does not paint a good picture of Colgan training nor of the Capt. who was at the controls of this flight.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

Not being familiar with airline standards I am curious to hear from some of our airline pilots if the criticisms levied in this article are fair or out of line.
Click to expand...

I think it was fairly written and it raises some very good points.
 
I don't understand why the pilot pulled back when the airspeed got too slow and stick shaker was telling him so. He had enough hours to know that you push the nose down to increase airspeed. :confused:
 
There's question of tailplane stall vs. wing stall, and a possible misdiagnosis of what happened, since the reactions are opposite and you have little time to determine which is occurring.

Very sad.
 
Anthony said:
I don't understand why the pilot pulled back when the airspeed got too slow and stick shaker was telling him so. He had enough hours to know that you push the nose down to increase airspeed. :confused:
Click to expand...

From my understanding he pulled back on the yoke when the stick "pusher" activated. The pusher is trying to lower the nose to avoid a stall.

In aircraft with stick shakers and stick pushers to the untrained they usually (not always) tend to want to pull back on the yoke when activated.

Hours mean nothing, experience is what counts.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's question of tailplane stall vs. wing stall, and a possible misdiagnosis of what happened, since the reactions are opposite and you have little time to determine which is occurring.

Very sad.
Click to expand...

They should have never got into this situation to begin with. Very sad indeed.
 
Isn't there an issue too with the fact that they put flaps down with ice on the wings? I think she realized that adding flaps wasn't a good idea and put them back up. My stomach was in knots while reading this. Very sad.
 
Associated Press said:
But testimony pointing to shortcomings of the pilot left Karen Kuwik "livid." The retired teacher said she taught every child the way she would have wanted her own child taught. She said the airline should have done the same, hiring pilots they would want safeguarding their own families.
"I just can't understand why they wouldn't put the best in those cockpits," she said. "If their loved ones were flying on those planes, wouldn't they want the best captain they could get?
Click to expand...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/13/buffalo-crash-family-frie_n_202850.html


I do not know if he was the best or not. But I do know that pilot's are not paid enough. Their salaries have been really decimated these past few years. The airlines want to pay less because the flying public want to fly cross country for $100.



If you want the best, you pay the best, and that means charging for that service.



Air travel is:
1. Safe
2. Cheap
3. Fast


Pick only 2 of those 3

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/13/buffalo-crash-family-frie_n_202850.html
 
smigaldi said:
I do not know if he was the best or not. But I do know that pilot's are not paid enough. Their salaries have been really decimated these past few years. The airlines want to pay less because the flying public want to fly cross country for $100.
Click to expand...

The airline pilot that lives across the street from me just bought a pizza store. (Hungry Howies fwiw)
 
smigaldi said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/13/buffalo-crash-family-frie_n_202850.html


I do not know if he was the best or not. But I do know that pilot's are not paid enough. Their salaries have been really decimated these past few years. The airlines want to pay less because the flying public want to fly cross country for $100.



If you want the best, you pay the best, and that means charging for that service.



Air travel is:
1. Safe
2. Cheap
3. Fast


Pick only 2 of those 3
Click to expand...

The pay scales, especially in the regionals are dismal along with the work rules.

How often in the airline industry when you hear of 16 hour work days and ball busting schedules the reply from management, "Well, it's legal." The FAA has been resistant to update draconian flight and duty times. While in some situations it's perfectly legal to have pilots on duty for 16 continuous hours, flight dispatchers are limited to a 10 hour duty day by FAR. Go figure that one out.

When I was hired by the airline back in 1986 the minimum requirements were ATP and 4,000 hours with a background in either Part 135 or 121 operations. If you failed initial training that was it, you were history. At that time we had a washout rate of about 30%. In today's world they simply want warm bodies to fill seats at the lowest cost at the maximum usage.

In today's world at the regionals you see hiring right from the flight schools with wet ink on the licenses and no real world operating experience because they will work for cheap to "build experience".

This accident was the classic "accident chain" event that just kept snowballing out of control. Lack of standardization, lack of procedures and most importantly lack of experience.

There's a reason I won't fly on certain regionals.
 
dmccormack said:
With all due respect to the teacher...

The hurdles one must pass to be an ATP are a bit more stringent than passing 6th grade.
Click to expand...

Think of how many pilots you have met with a pocket full of ratings that you wouldn't get into an airplane with.

Anyone can get a rating, it's experience and how one uses it that counts.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The airline pilot that lives across the street from me just bought a pizza store. (Hungry Howies fwiw)
Click to expand...
And that has what to do with the cost of tea in China?

Of course there are pilots who make good cash. Looking at one example and then thinking that all pilots earn that cash is just plain incorrect.

Here is the Colgan pay scale
http://www.willflyforfood.com/airlinepilotpay/Colgan_Air_Pilot_Pay.php

Often time the pilots on some of these planes are earning a base wage less than the guy who is xraying baggage for the TSA
 
What is the average number of hours one gets per month? I assume it's more than the minimum. Calling Matt...
 
smigaldi said:
And that has what to do with the cost of tea in China?

Of course there are pilots who make good cash. Looking at one example and then thinking that all pilots earn that cash is just plain incorrect.

Here is the Colgan pay scale
http://www.willflyforfood.com/airlinepilotpay/Colgan_Air_Pilot_Pay.php

Often time the pilots on some of these planes are earning a base wage less than the guy who is xraying baggage for the TSA
Click to expand...

It's supply and demand. Remember back a few years ago when the regionals were requiring new hires to pay for their own training? They had more resumes than they could handle.

As long as you have pilots willing to work for these wages and conditions it will never change.
 
jesse said:
What is the average number of hours one gets per month? I assume it's more than the minimum. Calling Matt...
Click to expand...


from what i remember talking to matt, and what seems pretty much standard in the regionals, I'm sure its much closer to the maximum than the minimum.
 
I talk to a number of people who think that all pilots flying people around should have some ridiculous amount of experience. I ask those people where they expect those pilots to get their experience. We all had 0 hours at one point, we all had our private at one point and nothing else, flying around in a 150, 172, whatever. You can't expect every pilot out there to have 20,000 hours, because they have to somehow get there.

Not saying that the pilots on board were qualified for flying that plane in those conditions (I don't have enough info to make that call), but everyone 20,000 hour pilot out there once had 0 hours.

Obviously you don't hire a 0 hour pilot, but the reactions of the public get annoying to me at times.
 
smigaldi said:
And that has what to do with the cost of tea in China?

Of course there are pilots who make good cash. Looking at one example and then thinking that all pilots earn that cash is just plain incorrect.
Click to expand...

He's selling Pizza to pay the bills.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I talk to a number of people who think that all pilots flying people around should have some ridiculous amount of experience. I ask those people where they expect those pilots to get their experience. We all had 0 hours at one point, we all had our private at one point and nothing else, flying around in a 150, 172, whatever. You can't expect every pilot out there to have 20,000 hours, because they have to somehow get there.

Not saying that the pilots on board were qualified for flying that plane in those conditions (I don't have enough info to make that call), but everyone 20,000 hour pilot out there once had 0 hours.

Obviously you don't hire a 0 hour pilot, but the reactions of the public get annoying to me at times.
Click to expand...


Agree...

For those that worry about experience and training -- only fly from busy hubs on large carriers and avoid commuters.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's question of tailplane stall vs. wing stall, and a possible misdiagnosis of what happened, since the reactions are opposite and you have little time to determine which is occurring.

Very sad.
Click to expand...

I thought one of the big things in the Q400 was the ability of the FMC / on board systems to determine if it is a wing stall or a tailplane stall?
 
Anthony said:
I don't understand why the pilot pulled back when the airspeed got too slow and stick shaker was telling him so. He had enough hours to know that you push the nose down to increase airspeed. :confused:
Click to expand...

It looks to me like the crew thought something was happening because of the ice - Not necessarily a bad call, since they knew they'd been in ice and things started going south rapidly shortly after flaps and gear were deployed.

Colgan also apparently does not even have their pilots feel the stick shaker and pusher in the sim. To someone who's never felt it before, and who is reacting to what he thinks is ice, the stick shaker may well have been misinterpreted as a tailplane stall. I can't say I'd have thought any different. And if a tailplane stall occurs, the immediate remedy is - to swiftly pull back on the yoke.

This seems more like a misdiagnosis of the problem rather than an "incorrect" action being taken. And I can't believe Colgan doesn't train their pilots in the sim on the stick shaker and pusher, or that the FAA approved their training plan with that missing. Just seems basic to this non-airline pilot. :dunno:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I talk to a number of people who think that all pilots flying people around should have some ridiculous amount of experience. I ask those people where they expect those pilots to get their experience. We all had 0 hours at one point, we all had our private at one point and nothing else, flying around in a 150, 172, whatever. You can't expect every pilot out there to have 20,000 hours, because they have to somehow get there.

Not saying that the pilots on board were qualified for flying that plane in those conditions (I don't have enough info to make that call), but everyone 20,000 hour pilot out there once had 0 hours.

Obviously you don't hire a 0 hour pilot, but the reactions of the public get annoying to me at times.
Click to expand...
Since the ATA wants to bar GA flying from airports and airspace, the pilots should get all that time flying empty 747s, of course. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It looks to me like the crew thought something was happening because of the ice - Not necessarily a bad call, since they knew they'd been in ice and things started going south rapidly shortly after flaps and gear were deployed.
Click to expand...

I don't think so Kent. The crew didn't know anything was wrong until it was too late and the airplane quit flying. The amount of time between them knowing they were in trouble to their death was 26 seconds.

In those 26 seconds all they did was attempt to react to a situation that was already final. There was no saving it.

I seriously doubt "tail stall" crossed the guys mind in those 26 seconds and his pulling back was probably a natural paniced reaction to a yoke being pushed which eh has never felt before and being WAY below the glideslope. They screwed up. That is all there is too it. It happens, people die, and we learn as a community.

Once again..by the time they knew there was a problem...They were dead. They had 26 seconds to think about it and it was just too late. Some situations need to be recognized before they happen.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
we all had our private at one point and nothing else, flying around in a 150, 172, whatever.
Click to expand...

Slight pic Ted: I never had a private: graduated from military flight school with a commercial instrument equivalent. Took a written test, and that rating was issued. There have been times when the military provided a lot of the pilots to the airlines. I didn't have anytime in a 150 or 172 or any civilian aircraft at that time.

Best,

Dave
 
jesse said:
Once again..by the time they knew there was a problem...They were dead. They had 26 seconds to think about it and it was just too late. Some situations need to be recognized before they happen.
Click to expand...

From everything that's come out about this, it seems there was a tragic lack of skill in the cockpit that got them into a low, slow, stalled condition. So, are you saying that once the pilot flew the aircraft into a stalled condition, there was no saving it? And why would that be the case?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Slight pic Ted: I never had a private: graduated from military flight school with a commercial instrument equivalent. Took a written test, and that rating was issued. There have been times when the military provided a lot of the pilots to the airlines. I didn't have anytime in a 150 or 172 or any civilian aircraft at that time.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
I know an ex-USN pilot who now flies for a major. He never got a civilian Single Engine certificate. He's pushing 75's and 76's through the sky but he cannot legally fly a 172....

-Skip
 
jesse said:
What is the average number of hours one gets per month? I assume it's more than the minimum. Calling Matt...
Click to expand...

Even if it is, there's the maximum to worry about as well:

§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
Click to expand...

So, that means that they'll get between 900 and 1000 hours for the year. A first-year FO would make between $18,900 and $21,000. The captain of the accident flight would have been making between $52,200 and $58,000. The accident FO would have just barely "graduated" to her 2nd-year pay of between $23,400 to $26,000. She also had 772 hours at the time of the accident, so that should indicate what they get in roughly a year for loggable flight time.

Note that it would be possible to get *paid* for more than 1,000 hours if you had less than the minimum in some months and I'm also not sure what they get paid for outside of the logged flight time, so they may make a bit more - But it gives you an idea. I made more driving trucks than the captain of that airplane made, and that's just not right. :no:
 
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