I will probably finish up my certificate in June and I am looking to join one of the flying clubs at our airport. The plane is a 1963 172...and looks to be in good shape. The price is $4500 to join and you can quit at anytime and you get $4000 back at that time. Some pilots have told me to avoid flying clubs, but without the means to buy my own aircraft (especially paying for repairs, hangar and ins on my own) I don't know that there is another option. The rental a/c at my field on which I train now are always in use and I would never be able to go overnight with them. I would appreciate the wisdom of anyone that has experience in these matters.
Club Airplane?
- Thread starter Kirbhund
- Start date
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,101
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
Out of curiosity, why dd those "some pilots" say to avoid flying clubs?
I was in a club for awhile until I bought my plane. And if I ever decide I don't want to own a plane anymore, I would seriously consider a club. However, you have to be careful WHICH club you join.
I was in a club for awhile until I bought my plane. And if I ever decide I don't want to own a plane anymore, I would seriously consider a club. However, you have to be careful WHICH club you join.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
I would listen to the "some pilots" if they said to stay away from a club and had a reason I would listen.
Just staying away from clubs is way to general to really mean much.
There are good clubs there are not so good clubs.
Just staying away from clubs is way to general to really mean much.
There are good clubs there are not so good clubs.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
What's the hourly rate and is it wet or dry? Any monthly dues?
$4,500 buy in on an old 172 seems pretty steep. Don't get me wrong, I like 172s a lot and that includes the older ones. An older 172 like that is probably only worth $20-25k unless it has unusually good avionics.
I am just getting ready to get the specifics, but I think it is like 65 an hour dry and like 150/month dues, which included one hour of time...but yeah, you have a good point on price considering there are 10 guys in the club or so.
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,257
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
They probably account for newbie's inability to evaluate the personalities and policies of any given club.
-- P
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2005
- Messages
- 10,903
- Location
- Olympia, Washington
- Display Name
Display name:
Ghery Pettit
I belong to a club (have for 10 years) and I'm quite happy with it. 4 planes (well, the C-172H is for sale, to be replaced with a newer one). 50 members. I've only been aced out of flying once. Planes are well maintained. Much more economical than owning. Still wish I owned, however.
And it doesn't cost $4500 to join, either.
And it doesn't cost $4500 to join, either.
I belonged to a flying club for years, and would rejoin in a minute, if finances permitted. Very seldom did I have trouble scheduling a plane. (Oshkosh, and the Okie derby excepted):wink2: I lost a trip once in maybe 10 years due to maintenence issues. The members took better overall care of the planes because they were the owners, vs renters. Cheapest rates per hour anywhere around. Of course, it was one of the "good" clubs.
I am curious, who holds your deposit? Do you have to sell your position to get your money back? How do they budget for expenses? etc. And is all that neat stuff in writing?
I am curious, who holds your deposit? Do you have to sell your position to get your money back? How do they budget for expenses? etc. And is all that neat stuff in writing?
CJones
Final Approach
I got my PPL while in a club. The club had something like 70 'active' pilots (with only 10-12 of us flying on a semi-regular basis) and 6 planes ranging from 152 to 210. It was a great way to get access to a bunch of different planes with different mission profiles.
For a $4500 buy-in, I would hope to have a bit more than 1/10 share in an older 172. $65/hr dry + ~$40/hr for fuel = $100+/hr for an older model 172 that may or may not be available when you want it. The devil is in the details - if the other members only fly once per year, then it could be a sweet deal to have a plane available any time. If it's 10 people fighting for one plane on a weekly basis, you can kiss your 'spur of the moment' type trips goodbye.
For a $4500 buy-in, I would hope to have a bit more than 1/10 share in an older 172. $65/hr dry + ~$40/hr for fuel = $100+/hr for an older model 172 that may or may not be available when you want it. The devil is in the details - if the other members only fly once per year, then it could be a sweet deal to have a plane available any time. If it's 10 people fighting for one plane on a weekly basis, you can kiss your 'spur of the moment' type trips goodbye.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
A few things jump out at me here:
1) How many people in this club? More than about 6, and $4500 sounds too high to me. If it's 5 or less, that's a bit better, and will result in better availability.
2) How much per hour for the plane? Tach or Hobbs? Wet or dry?
3) Well, before I go too far into this, we've had some other threads on flying clubs you should read, and report back with questions:
questions to ask when joining a flying club.
Flying Clubs
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I've always thought the sweet number for a club that owns one airplane is three. More than that is too much if all are active pilots.
The club the OP mentions sounds utterly dreadful.
The club the OP mentions sounds utterly dreadful.
elmetal
Pre-takeoff checklist
Quite honestly, if it were just you and another guy, the price is still far too steep for just 1 airplane at such a high price with monthly dues.
4500 plus 150 a month for a rate of 65 dry on an old 172? I apologize for sounding rude but even down here in South Florida where the prices are high that is an absurd price...
4500 plus 150 a month for a rate of 65 dry on an old 172? I apologize for sounding rude but even down here in South Florida where the prices are high that is an absurd price...
denverpilot
Tied Down
You can rent pre-restart 172s around here for that same hourly cost and $35/mo to a club for dues. That $4500 in, $4000 back, sounds like a ponzi scheme to me.
http://www.aspenflyingclub.com/rates.htm
There's also a club here that has a mid 1970's C-182 their line for $125/Hr wet. That's a "too good to be true" deal unless the person taking the bath on it decides to start deferring maintenance items.
http://www.flights-inc.com/fleet.asp?ID=N97683
Hobbs vs Tach helps the owner of that one a little bit, but it's still pretty low. If it's breaking even at $5/gal on fuel, I'd be amazed. (Maybe they have one of those hidden fuel-surcharges. I haven't asked around on that.)
Here's some more from this area so you can make an informed decision. Of course, in your area, things may be significantly different.
http://airwestflightcenter.com/aircraft.aspx
http://www.poudreaviation.com/
Kent will get a chuckle out of the DA40 rate in this sheet:
http://www.ia-kapa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IA_Rate-12-27-10.pdf
http://www.aspenflyingclub.com/rates.htm
There's also a club here that has a mid 1970's C-182 their line for $125/Hr wet. That's a "too good to be true" deal unless the person taking the bath on it decides to start deferring maintenance items.
http://www.flights-inc.com/fleet.asp?ID=N97683
Hobbs vs Tach helps the owner of that one a little bit, but it's still pretty low. If it's breaking even at $5/gal on fuel, I'd be amazed. (Maybe they have one of those hidden fuel-surcharges. I haven't asked around on that.)
Here's some more from this area so you can make an informed decision. Of course, in your area, things may be significantly different.
http://airwestflightcenter.com/aircraft.aspx
http://www.poudreaviation.com/
Kent will get a chuckle out of the DA40 rate in this sheet:
http://www.ia-kapa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IA_Rate-12-27-10.pdf
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
That is an awful lot. My club is currently $1200 to get in, $130/mo if you fly, and the "cheap" plane (1977 Archer) is currently $116/hr, but that's per TACH hour, WET.
However, we also have a very nicely equipped C182, and a 2006 glass-panel DA40. With three planes and less than 30 members, availability is phenomenal and there's always planes ready to go even when one is down for maintenance. They're better equipped than the local rentals and all three have IFR GPS with the databases kept up to date.
So, paying more for an old 172, sounds a bit expensive unless there are very few members. Are there any other clubs in the area?
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
You've got to realize, though, that Aspen is far from an average club. Clubs like Aspen and West Valley have huge economies of scale working for them.
I don't think it's too good to be true. We operate on a break-even by design, and our 182 is currently $139 per tach hour wet, with fuel close to $5/gal, and that's including both an engine reserve and an upgrade reserve. $125/hr on the Hobbs and $139/hr on the tach are pretty close to each other.
When you compare the rates for clubs vs. anything else, you need to take into account that the monthly dues should be taking care of the fixed costs. So, if you're looking at what you're spending on your 182 and dividing it by the number of hours you fly, you're probably going to end up with a much bigger number.
Well, $168/hr wet on the Hobbs isn't so bad for a glass-panel DA40 - $160 is generally as low as they get on the average rental line, and I paid $175 at West Valley.
However, you're right that it does make our current $144/hr on the tach in the club look awfully good.
eMKay
Pre-takeoff checklist
Our club is $600 to get in $95 a month dues, $28 dry tach for a Cherokee 140 or a 172, $33 for the 2 archers. 45 members, students join for $350 and pay the rest when they get their PPL, students can use the 140 or the 172 but not the archers. All planes are IFR with garmin gps's. All have newer paint, newer engines, and constant maintenance. It sure beats owning! Although if I go all the way and become a CFI, I might want a 152 for myself.
elmetal
Pre-takeoff checklist
I hate youuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just kidding. But I wish I had anything that even closely resembles what you have....
elmetal
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's probably the main reason there... Just like here there is one club I know of and it's 5k to get in and I think they got maybe like a few 172 and 152 I'm not too sure about it but 5k to join I want a 206 or a 182 at LEAST
snoopyloopy
Filing Flight Plan
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2011
- Messages
- 29
- Display Name
Display name:
snoopyloopy
where do i join?!
kevin7500
Pre-takeoff checklist
I paid $72 a wet Hobbs hour on a DA40. Yes, that is $72. It didn't have all glass, only twin 430s. I don't recall the particulars of the club...something like $1200 buy in and $100 a month. Non-club is at $115. Now I pay $70 wet for an old Warrior.
I switched because of rules against flying over large bodies of water or going international with the Diamond.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Holy crap!!! Where was that?!? Hell, fuel alone in a Diamond costs around $45/hr, and the eventual engine overhaul is $24K + R&R (so, if you don't count the R&R, $12/hr when divided by TBO). So, that's $57... Which leaves only $15/hr for maintenance.
Don't get me wrong, I love a great deal, but they're either operating on an unsustainable model or they're not maintaining the airplane very well... I'd almost be scared to pay that little!
Yeah, overbearing rules suck. That's another thing I like about the club I'm in - You can USE the planes. The rules pretty much say "don't hog the planes (ie put at least an hour a day on 'em if you're gonna take 'em somewhere), plug 'em in when it's cold, and don't be dumb."
Interestingly enough, my calculations and testing so far seems to indicate that the DA40 can cross Lake Michigan and remain within gliding distance of shore the entire time if you cross in the right places (and high enough). IIRC it'll do the MTW-MBL crossing at 10,500.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
I was paying $145/hr for a GFC700 equipped DA40 for a while, but I believe it's up to $155/hr now. Even still, it's a hell of deal compared to the similarly equipped 172's across the field for close to $140/hr, if you are doing some significant cross country flying.
kevin7500
Pre-takeoff checklist
Paramount Aviation. I used the one that was hangared at GRR. They may be higher now since fuel there is around $6.50!
They do have their own mechanic which probably helps with the maintenance. I was told that the lake rule was a condition of the insurance. It really limits your travel options in a state surrounded by water though. I only flew it one time after I got my certificate. I knew that I would want to go over the lake and I was already planning my Bahamas trip.
I like the rules where I am now: don't be dumb.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
I have looked around St Louis area and they do not seem to have the best deals on rentals or clubs around.
Here is another one on the other end of town.
2001 172R $150 a month $65 Dry Club credit 2 hours a month.
http://www.stcharlesflyingservice.com/new-st-charles-flying-club/
No buy in and a newer plane but on the other end of town from where he is located.
They do have a DA40 $159 plus fuel surcharge not sure what it would be with current fuel prices. This is the one I flew when I was in ST Louis one weekend.
Here is another one on the other end of town.
2001 172R $150 a month $65 Dry Club credit 2 hours a month.
http://www.stcharlesflyingservice.com/new-st-charles-flying-club/
No buy in and a newer plane but on the other end of town from where he is located.
They do have a DA40 $159 plus fuel surcharge not sure what it would be with current fuel prices. This is the one I flew when I was in ST Louis one weekend.