Clouds above the airport

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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This has happened twice now that I know of. Student pilot and instructor take off from airport when there are clouds in the neighborhood. Turns out clouds are lower than expected and student flies right into the bottom of one while still inside the airport airspace. The cloud bottom is above pattern altitude, but not by much. Student and instructor handle the "reduced visibility" problem without difficulty. return to land at the airport, and decide not to fly any more that day.

In one case, the instructor immediately reported the problem to tower. They waited until he was safely on the ground, then put the airport into IMC status. The other instructor didn't mention it to tower at all.

What would you do?
 
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AuntPeggy said:
This has happened twice now that I know of. Student pilot and instructor take off from airport when there are clouds in the neighborhood. Turns out clouds are lower than expected and student flies right into the bottom of one while still inside the airport airspace. The cloud bottom is above pattern altitude, but not by much. Student and instructor handle the "reduced visibility" problem without difficulty. return to land at the airport, and decide not to fly any more that day.

In one case, the instructor immediately reported the problem to tower. They waited until he was safely on the ground, then put the airport into IMC status. The other instructor didn't mention it to tower at all.

What would you do?
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Student pilot flies right into the bottom of a cloud with the instructor on board ?:dunno::dunno::nono:....

He/she must be a wonderful instructor.:nonod:
 
N801BH said:
Student pilot flies right into the bottom of a cloud with the instructor on board ?:dunno::dunno::nono:....

He/she must be a wonderful instructor.:nonod:
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Yes, they are.

The clouds were not visible until they were in the clouds. Visibility was good enough to see the ground for a few miles.

Let's not devolve into a discussion of the meteorological differences between flying the Rockies and flying the Atlantic coastline.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
Yes, they are. Let's not devolve into a discussion of the meteorological differences between flying the Rockies and flying the Atlantic coastline.
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No reason to devolve in that direction... When I take off based on the ATIS put out by our tower I trust the bases prediction is correct.. In the hundreds and hundreds of times I launched I guess maybe 4-5 times the clouds were lower then they had broadcast on ATIS... On a straight out or turning the upwind leg I am close to TPA= traffic pattern altitude. It is pretty easy to gauge the bases by then... On those times they were too low I just made simple radio call and requested a return to landing. They understood the reason and cleared me to land... YMMV.

Ben.

Edit. I just looked at my log book and in my 945 takeoffs here at Jackson Hole the ATIS was wrong 4 times.... In my opinion that is pretty outstanding considering they use the mark one eyeballs to guess at the bases.... WE have a great bunch of tower guys/gals here and it shows.
 
What were the ATIS/ AWOS reports? I use SVFR to get in & out under a partially fogged runway often, but our weather moves fairly predictably up here. Need more info to decide. Dave
 
Sounds a bit like my first solo. I reached pattern altitude and discovered I was between ragged bases. About the time I picked up the mike to ask what to do, the tower controller came on and said, "Safety 16, your instructor advises make this a full stop." I did.
 
Not sure what I'd do because I need more info... you say they were inside the airspace, but were they at an altitude below legal VFR minimum ceiling for that airspace?
I will say that in order to "handle" this problem, though, I would descend immediately. :D
 
rottydaddy said:
Not sure what I'd do because I need more info... you say they were inside the airspace, but were they at an altitude below legal VFR minimum ceiling for that airspace?
I will say that in order to "handle" this problem, though, I would descend immediately. :D
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Unless they took off with a special VFR release, and that the flight ended up in the base of the clouds, one thing is for sure.... They were at least 500 feet illegal.... Which depends on how far they ventured up into the cloud base


A decent is the legal and proper way to address this situation... YMMV.
 
In theory I would report the lower cloud deck. The more we report inaccurate weather readings ,the more accurate that they may be in the future. Providing all was legal when they took off, no FAR was intentionally broken as far as I am concerned based on info provided.

David
 
N801BH said:
Unless they took off with a special VFR release, and that the flight ended up in the base of the clouds, one thing is for sure.... They were at least 500 feet illegal.... Which depends on how far they ventured up into the cloud base


A decent is the legal and proper way to address this situation... YMMV.
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I get that part- inside clouds is IMC. I was addressing what I thought was the concern of the OP... whether or not to inform the tower so they could declare the airport itself as below VFR mins. She did not say they hit clouds while climbing to TPA, just that they were "inside the airspace".
If they were outside the pattern and well above TPA, it may have no relevance at all to the flight rules status of the airport itself.

As for not saying anything to avoid looking bad, you can report a lower-than-reported cloud base without explaining exactly how you determined that. :D
 
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Ok, let me clarify. Often at coastal airports, dull blue-grey sky blends with dull blue-grey water in a way that causes them to merge visually. When a light mist or light fog rolls in from the sea, it can be impossible to discern any difference between sea, sky, or cloud. In the cases mentioned, the tower personnel were unable to see that there were clouds just above TPA. People on the ground were unaware of it as well. At these airports, it is not uncommon for pilots or tower to watch departing aircraft to see when they fade into the sky so that they can judge where the ceiling is.

This condition does not occur all the time. It usually only happens during spring, fall, or winter. In the summertime, the hazy brownish-blue sky blends in with the hazy brownish-blue sea.

So, in both cases mentioned, Tower was unaware of the reduced visibility affecting aircraft in their pattern or just a little above it.

My question, aside from the meteorological phenomenon, is would you contact the tower immediately and take the chance they will close the airport to VFR traffic while you are still airborne, would you tell them after you are safely on ground, would you just land and keep quiet, would you do something else?
 
flhrci said:
In theory I would report the lower cloud deck. The more we report inaccurate weather readings ,the more accurate that they may be in the future. Providing all was legal when they took off, no FAR was intentionally broken as far as I am concerned based on info provided.

David
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rottydaddy said:
I get that part- inside clouds is IMC. I was addressing what I thought was the concern of the OP... whether or not to inform the tower so they could declare the airport itself as below VFR mins. She did not say they hit clouds while climbing to TPA, just that they were "inside the airspace".
If they were outside the pattern and well above TPA, it may have no relevance at all to the flight rules status of the airport itself.

As for not saying anything to avoid looking bad, you can report a lower-than-reported cloud base without explaining exactly how you determined that. :D
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Thanks. These are the types of answers I am looking for.
 
Ron Levy said:
Sounds a bit like my first solo. I reached pattern altitude and discovered I was between ragged bases. About the time I picked up the mike to ask what to do, the tower controller came on and said, "Safety 16, your instructor advises make this a full stop." I did.
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Sounds like your instructor watched as your plane started to haze away.
 
Ron Levy said:
Sounds a bit like my first solo. I reached pattern altitude and discovered I was between ragged bases. About the time I picked up the mike to ask what to do, the tower controller came on and said, "Safety 16, your instructor advises make this a full stop." I did.
Click to expand...

I recall one solo flight in the pattern where the clouds were becoming worse than reported. Tower asked me what I could see at pattern altitude and I told him I was looking down at stuff heading our way. I landed and the field went IFR. Weather is what you get.
 
AuntPeggy said:
My question, aside from the meteorological phenomenon, is would you contact the tower immediately and take the chance they will close the airport to VFR traffic while you are still airborne, would you tell them after you are safely on ground, would you just land and keep quiet, would you do something else?
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IMNSHO, definitely report it immediately. "PIREPS are appreciated." :)

As to the prudence, I think many of us have had some sort of similar issue. Ceilings descend on you unexpectedly, or the haze layer fades into the clouds. The key is to look at your ADM and your meteorology skills to find out where you need to increase your margins.
 
Turn the question around: Why would you not report?

Now compare that to the lesson CFIs try to reinforce in their students; climb, conserve, confess.
 
Richard said:
Turn the question around: Why would you not report?

Now compare that to the lesson CFIs try to reinforce in their students; climb, conserve, confess.
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I reported every one of my (short) flights... A simple radio call while I was rolling out. " I was unable to maintain VFR". Short and to the point.:yesnod:

In all four cases they took a second closer look at the cloud bases and moved the field to IFR.. The tower is always open for feedback to improve safety... At least here @JAC.

Ben.
 
Let the tower know. And don't worry about potential consequences. Unless you have a history and reputation of breaking rules, nobody in the FSDO is "after" you. And if you do, and they are, you'll already know it.

In a case like this, it's clear you didn't know where the bases were until you hit them, and the tower didn't either.
 
What would I do. "Pilot reported legal VMC with deteriorating conditions after reaching the ground."
 
Just give 'em a PIREP. No need to confess to anything, 'cause it didn't happen.
 
So, I guess the consensus is to report the cloud bases after successfully returning to land.
Thanks.
 
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