Clock required for IFR.

FORANE

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FORANE
I'll admit it, I never use a clock for approaches, timed turns, etc, nothing, nada, zip... I would remove the clock from the panel entirely if it were not required.
Given I have an experimental and could use just about anything to satisfy the requirement, what is the smallest least intrusive means to legally satisfy the clock requirement?
 
Does anything you're installing come with timer functionality?

I think the installed 496 has a timer, no?
I have an old EFIS which I believe does not have one.
I also have a 430W.
My tablet which Runs Anywhere Map has a clock with seconds continuously running at the bottom.
My other tablet runs Xavion and it has a timer.
Any way to consider a tablet "installed"?
 
Any way to consider a tablet "installed"?
:confused:
Your 430W should have all the timers you need.
Know the features of the equipment already installed.
 
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:confused:
Your 430W should have all the timers you need.
Know the features of the equipment already installed.
So you are saying the 430w satisfies the legal requirement for a clock?
 
The clock must be "attached" or "installed" to the panel. Some argue that means it must be screwed in, not slipped into a holder or velcrowed.

I think it means attached firmly enough not to shake off in rough weather. But I don't fly IFR, so what do I know.
 
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I'll admit it, I never use a clock for approaches, timed turns, etc, nothing, nada, zip... I would remove the clock from the panel entirely if it were not required.
Given I have an experimental and could use just about anything to satisfy the requirement, what is the smallest least intrusive means to legally satisfy the clock requirement?

How do you do one minute inbound legs without some sort of timer? Or time your missed approach point on approaches that require it? Just curious.
 
How do you do one minute inbound legs without some sort of timer? Or time your missed approach point on approaches that require it? Just curious.

Our 430/530W GPSS does that well, timing a approach, I've yet to encounter that in the wild (outside of the training environment), just been ILS or RNAV.
 
So you are saying the 430w satisfies the legal requirement for a clock?
So you worry that 430's timer (a fully certified gadget) which is built into the panel is not 'legal' yet the hand-held non-certified tablet's clock might be OK. I don't follow this logic.

How do you do one minute inbound legs without some sort of timer? Or time your missed approach point on approaches that require it? Just curious.
I agree. It is impossible to practice IFR without a timer so the whole premise 'I never use' seems bizarre coming from IFR pilot's mouth. Perhaps 'never use' should be replaced with 'never had a chance to use'. And such 430 makes timing extra easy since the timer is already 'built in' for example when flying holds. For identifying MAP timer may no longer be necessary since 430 or other modern glass cockpits simply enunciate arrival at MAP.
 
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The clock must be "attached" or "installed" to the panel. Some argue that means it must be screwed in, not slipped into a holder or velcrowed.

I think it means attached firmly enough not to shake off in rough weather. But I don't fly IFR, so what do I know.
The FAA has stated repeatedly that velcro'd, clamped, clipped, etc., is not "installed", and that's really a good thing or you couldn't put a 496 on a yoke clamp without paperwork and approval.

OTOH, since the clock display of an installed 430W has digital seconds, it meets the requirement.
 
Doesn't a watch with sweep second hand satisfy the rule? (I'm too lazy to look it up, but I thought it did)
 
Heck you can get a clock for under 100bucks on spruce, 200 will get you a digital one with local time, Zulu, count down, count up, Hobbs, backlit, etc.
 
I've never understood the rationale for requiring that the clock be installed.
 
The FAA has stated repeatedly that velcro'd, clamped, clipped, etc., is not "installed", and that's really a good thing or you couldn't put a 496 on a yoke clamp without paperwork and approval.

OTOH, since the clock display of an installed 430W has digital seconds, it meets the requirement.
Thanks for answering the question Ron.
 
Because there's no guarantee of airworthiness on things that aren't "installed."

Can't tell if you're being serious or not, but just in case you are, why shouldn't the pilot be able to determine whether a personally-owned clock or watch was adequate for the task?
 
How do you do one minute inbound legs without some sort of timer? Or time your missed approach point on approaches that require it? Just curious.

As Mr (Mrs?) Olasek states below the 430 makes this no longer necessary and I would say obsolete outside of training / emergency. I have yet to encounter a situation in actual when it was required. In the event I did, I have other clocks present.

So you worry that 430's timer (a fully certified gadget) which is built into the panel is not 'legal' yet the hand-held non-certified tablet's clock might be OK. I don't follow this logic.


I agree. It is impossible to practice IFR without a timer so the whole premise 'I never use' seems bizarre coming from IFR pilot's mouth. Perhaps 'never use' should be replaced with 'never had a chance to use'. And such 430 makes timing extra easy since the timer is already 'built in' for example when flying holds. For identifying MAP timer may no longer be necessary since 430 or other modern glass cockpits simply enunciate arrival at MAP.

The Tablet is about as close to built in as anything else in the plane as it is in a permanent mount and is never removed from the plane. Further, the tablets clock is readily displayed on the normal display screen as opposed to the 430 which is not.
 
As Mr (Mrs?) Olasek states below the 430 makes this no longer necessary and I would say obsolete outside of training / emergency. I have yet to encounter a situation in actual when it was required. In the event I did, I have other clocks present.

The Tablet is about as close to built in as anything else in the plane as it is in a permanent mount and is never removed from the plane. Further, the tablets clock is readily displayed on the normal display screen as opposed to the 430 which is not.

The rationale for the built-in requirement is explained above. In the end, you can do whatever you want with whatever you want. If nothing goes wrong nobody knows or cares. But if it does go wrong, there may be lots of ramifications if you're not in compliance.
 
Can't tell if you're being serious or not, but just in case you are, why shouldn't the pilot be able to determine whether a personally-owned clock or watch was adequate for the task?

Of course, I'm serious. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's the FAA logic.
 
Of course, I'm serious. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's the FAA logic.
During my IFR training (1986) my instructor who was a real FAR nut and a Citation corporate pilot (and later went to work for FAA) allowed me to use a simple digital up/down timer that was attached to the clipboard, there was no clock in the panel in that 172. My IFR examiner later did not mind either during my checkride. By the way if you read an old classic textbook on IFR flying (it was recommended to me at that time) by Peter Dogan on page 75 (2nd printing) he states you should attach your timer with a velcro to your yoke. He gives specific tips what this timer should and shouldn't be like. Anyway, this "built in clock" has for long been recognized as an obsolete requirement and few pay attention to it.
 
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I set the clock in the Arrow I flew yesterday, thinking I'd use it for a fuel timer. After an hour had gone by on my watch, the clock in the panel had only advanced maybe 40 minutes. Glad I wasn't doing holds...
 
During my IFR training (1986) my instructor who was a real FAR nut and a Citation corporate pilot (and later went to work for FAA) allowed me to use a simple digital up/down timer that was attached to the clipboard, there was no clock in the panel in that 172. My IFR examiner later did not mind either during my checkride. By the way if you read an old classic textbook on IFR flying (it was recommended to me at that time) by Peter Dogan on page 75 (2nd printing) he states you should attach your timer with a velcro to your yoke. He gives specific tips what this timer should and shouldn't be like. Anyway, this "built in clock" has for long been recognized as an obsolete requirement and few pay attention to it.
I used a veclroed egg timer backed up with a cheap wrist watch. The aircraft I trained in had a clock so it was legal. No one cared that I didn't use it.
 
I set the clock in the Arrow I flew yesterday, thinking I'd use it for a fuel timer. After an hour had gone by on my watch, the clock in the panel had only advanced maybe 40 minutes. Glad I wasn't doing holds...

Yep. how many times have we tried to use the darn thing and it's coo-coo?
 
My IFR days are behind me, but...

...when teaching timed turns, we would often use a stopwatch with a sweep second hand.

The drill was to make a 360° standard rate turn take exactly two minutes, and the analog display of the second hand made it easy to time to the heading change.

Also useful in Pattern A and Pattern B drills - remember those?

app21.jpg


For all of those an analog display is nice, even on a digital device.

I'm a VFR Sport Pilot now, but there's no lack of timers even in my Sky Arrow - the transponder, my 496, even my Dynon D10A (I think), not to mention all the iDevices!
 
I think of it in the same way I use my tablet and the installed VOR heads. The tablet ends up being primary in a lot of VFR work but the installed VOR heads will work come hell or high water though they may not be optimal for the job.

The installed clock is the same, they know you have one __somewhere__. As far as the 430 goes, its about more than the FAF to MAP part of a non-precision approach a lot of the lost comms procedure is predicated on knowing the elapsed time (initial altitude yy thousand, expect xx thousand 5 minutes after departure?) and the current time when flying a lost comms approach. You can use your wrist watch for this but to the FAAs mind your wrist watch is unreliable and you may have forgotten it that day. The installed clock is well, installed. Strictly by the regs, failures with it while on an IFR flight should be reported the same way they would be for any other piece of required equipment.
 
The clock in the Garmin does not meet the requirements for an installed clock because the Garmin is not a "clock" by itself, and it may be turned off in the event of an electrical failure.

The FAA intended for clocks to be either wind-up types, or the electric type that is wired directly to the battery so it will run with the master switch off. That is why there is a TSO for clocks, and why most GA clocks are descendants of AN-5743-2 series clocks made for the military during WWII.

These requirements are current and not "obsolete", you would be wise to have a regulation clock in the event of electrical failure in IMC. Plus a back-up watch, timer, what have you.

And yes, violations do happen:

2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.​
6 Whether respondent actually needed such a
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7 Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.​
 
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These requirements are current and not "obsolete", you would be wise to have a regulation clock in the event of electrical failure in IMC. Plus a back-up watch, timer, what have you.
in the event of an electrical failure in IMC I'd guess 99.99% of pilots have a way of keeping time on their wrist, on the phone, on their tablet, and probably 3-4 other places on their person.
 
in the event of an electrical failure in IMC I'd guess 99.99% of pilots have a way of keeping time on their wrist, on the phone, on their tablet, and probably 3-4 other places on their person.
100% agreed.

and it may be turned off in the event of an electrical failure.​
:confused: Everything can be turned off, including your VORs, radios, etc.
The clock in the Garmin does not meet the requirements for an installed clock because the Garmin is not a "clock" by itself
This you made up, there is nothing in FAR that supports this interpretation. For example there is absolutely no separate 'clock' mounted in SR22/G1000 yet the aircraft is fully IFR certified and qualified.
 
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I used to have one of the so-called 8-day clocks in my plane so it ran even in the absence of electrical power.

How long does the 8 day clock go without winding?
It doesn't go at all unless you wind it.
 
I used to have one of the so-called 8-day clocks in my plane so it ran even in the absence of electrical power.

How long does the 8 day clock go without winding?
It doesn't go at all unless you wind it.
now Ron, let's not get pedantic. Even if the 8-day clock is not running and stuck at 3:57, once your battery dies you just wind it up. The clock will start moving and you will instantly have accurate time.
 
I'm hoping that the LORAN in "my" plane has a clock so we do not need to go to the expense of replacing the currently non-functional clock prior to IFR flight. If so, I've finally found a current use for LORAN! LOL
 
I think of it in the same way I use my tablet and the installed VOR heads. The tablet ends up being primary in a lot of VFR work but the installed VOR heads will work come hell or high water though they may not be optimal for the job.

The installed clock is the same, they know you have one __somewhere__. As far as the 430 goes, its about more than the FAF to MAP part of a non-precision approach a lot of the lost comms procedure is predicated on knowing the elapsed time (initial altitude yy thousand, expect xx thousand 5 minutes after departure?) and the current time when flying a lost comms approach. You can use your wrist watch for this but to the FAAs mind your wrist watch is unreliable and you may have forgotten it that day. The installed clock is well, installed. Strictly by the regs, failures with it while on an IFR flight should be reported the same way they would be for any other piece of required equipment.

If you've forgotten your wristwatch that day, there's nothing to stop the FAA from making that a no go item in the regulation, the same as an installed clock is in the current regulation. The regulation as it exists now makes no sense. It should say that a clock or watch with the specified features must be on board and easily accessible to the pilot, and leave out the installed nonsense.
 
The clock in the Garmin does not meet the requirements for an installed clock because the Garmin is not a "clock" by itself, and it may be turned off in the event of an electrical failure.

The FAA intended for clocks to be either wind-up types, or the electric type that is wired directly to the battery so it will run with the master switch off. That is why there is a TSO for clocks, and why most GA clocks are descendants of AN-5743-2 series clocks made for the military during WWII.

These requirements are current and not "obsolete", you would be wise to have a regulation clock in the event of electrical failure in IMC. Plus a back-up watch, timer, what have you.

The current regulation is obsolete because technology has advanced to the point where wristwatches are more reliable than most installed clocks, and it's easy and inexpensive to have an additional, independently powered, accurate backup timepiece if the FAA really thinks that's necessary.

And yes, violations do happen:

2. Absence of an installed clock. The Administrator charged
that respondent operated the aircraft under IFR when he did not have the required clock installed in the instrument panel. The law judge agreed, rejecting respondent's arguments that a
passenger had a watch with the same required functions (hours,
minutes, and seconds), another instrument in the aircraft could substitute for the clock, and the weather was VFR.
On appeal, respondent repeats the last claim, noting
correctly that VFR operations do not require the clock.
Respondent continues to ignore, however, the fact that the
regulation requires the installed clock whenever IFR operations are conducted, and the record demonstrates that respondent obtained and used an IFR clearance when he left Gillespie Field.
Tr. at 35-36, 114.​
6 Whether respondent actually needed such a
clearance is immaterial to the §§ 91.33(a) and 91.165 violations,as are the weather conditions at the time.7 Moreover, there is unrebutted evidence that the absence of the clock made the cases cited there (a violation of an operational FAR regulation is sufficient to support a finding of a "residual" or "derivative" § 91.9 violation).
It is not clear from the record whether the condition of the
TC violated § 91.33(a) as well. We need not decide this
question, as that violation is otherwise established. See ¶ 2,
infra.​

The fact that it's enforced does not address the issue of whether the installation requirement is necessary or appropriate.
 
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How in hell did someone get violated for flying in VMC on a IFR flight plan without a clock? Accident/incident? Ramp check?
Excellent question.

Here is the NTSB ruling on that case.
Reading through it reveals the clock issue was secondary, but cited as a violation by the FAA in addition to the primary issues. The respondent also apparently displayed a poor attitude during the litigation:
He testified: "If the FAA wanted a violation, I'll give
them a violation . . . . I'll put the turn coordinator down there
on the wires." Tr. at 217.

I can imagine such attitude won't win any friends nor influence people.
 
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