Cleared to takeoff, Proceed on course.

Thanks all. Great feedback and perspectives.
 
James331 said:
Ignore? Re read what I wrote and what I quoted.

If ATC tells me to turn to a heading, shy of something that puts the saftey/outcome of the flight in question, I will ASK them "do you want me to turn XYZ instead for noise abatement?"

TELLING ATC, well if I loose pressure at altitude, I will TELL ATC, after declaring, that I am descending to XYZ, of if I have a engine failure I will TELL them where I am landing, etc.

TELLING ATC what you're going to do = 7700

Questioning or asking for clarification is not the same.
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Whew. All I wanted to ask was about the neighbors part. Sounded like you didn't care about noise and the neighbors, you were gonna do the James departure regardless of local procedures.
 
Don't like what ATC says, question it.
You are the PIC, assert yourself.

Heck, I've been known to question the controller just to bust chops if I don't like their tone of voice.
 
mscard88 said:
Whew. All I wanted to ask was about the neighbors part. Sounded like you didn't care about noise and the neighbors, you were gonna do the James departure regardless of local procedures.
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Don't think you're smelling what I'm stepping in here.

Ain't the James departure, it's the departure as cleared by ATC.
 
Larry in TN said:
The controller gave a non-specific instruction. "Proceed on course" but no specifics on how to do so. That leaves a lot of flexibility for the pilot. If the controller needed something more specific than he should have given more specific instructions.
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Pilot announces, "Cessna 1234 holding short 23 at Alpha ready to depart to the north."

Controller responds, "Runway 23, cleared for takeoff, proceed on course."

Seems plenty specific to me. To proceed north from runway 23 requires a right turn.
 
Radar Contact said:
My understanding as a controller/pilot is that ATC can (and will at times) give you an instruction contrary to the noise abatement procedure. If they do, then the ATC instruction trumps the noise abatement procedure.

As others have said, if there is a question, just ask ATC. That said, when I've given a clearance that didn't comply with noise abatement, I've never been questioned but wouldn't mind if I was.

We routinely disregard noise abatement if needed to expedite the flow of traffic. I could quote our local order that authorizes this but it's local so would have little impact to the OP and isn't published for the pilots as it's ATC's responsibility if they choose to disregard it.
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It's not just local:

§91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127.
 
roncachamp said:
Seems plenty specific to me. To proceed north from runway 23 requires a right turn.
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It isn't specific with regard to the noise abatement procedure which is displayed on a sign at the departure runway. Nothing in the takeoff clearance either requires or prohibits the pilot from flying the noise abatement departure.

Of course, if I'm reading the OP correctly, he made a LEFT turn all the way around to north which certainly is not consistent with the reasonable expectations of the controller.
 
Larry in TN said:
It isn't specific with regard to the noise abatement procedure which is displayed on a sign at the departure runway. Nothing in the takeoff clearance either requires or prohibits the pilot from flying the noise abatement departure.

Of course, if I'm reading the OP correctly, he made a LEFT turn all the way around to north which certainly is not consistent with the reasonable expectations of the controller.
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IIRC, earlier in this discussion someone said if a direction of turn is not specified a turn in the shortest direction is assumed. Do you disagree with that statement?
 
Larry in TN said:
It isn't specific with regard to the noise abatement procedure which is displayed on a sign at the departure runway. Nothing in the takeoff clearance either requires or prohibits the pilot from flying the noise abatement departure.

Of course, if I'm reading the OP correctly, he made a LEFT turn all the way around to north which certainly is not consistent with the reasonable expectations of the controller.
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And the people in charge of the airspace trump that.



FastEddieB said:
Bear in mind no turns are expected until you are beyond the departure end of the runway, per AIM 4-3-3
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Obviously
 
James331 said:
Like cleared for take off, turn on course (contrary to the noise abatement procedure)
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You're reading more into it than is there.

"Proceed on course", as the OP typed it, is not defined in the P/CG, regs, or 7110.65. I don't see anything in flying that NA procedure (turn left 10deg at 500') as conflicting with "proceed on course". If the controller wants to specifically require, or prohibit, the following of the NA procedure then they need to use more specific phraseology.

As I said in my first post, I'd fly runway heading to 500', turn 10deg left until pattern altitude, then turn right "on course" to the north.

But that isn't the problem here.

The OP apparently turned LEFT to a northerly heading. The NA procedure really has nothing at all to do with why the controller was surprised.
 
Larry in TN said:
You're reading more into it than is there.

"Proceed on course", as the OP typed it, is not defined in the P/CG, regs, or 7110.65. I don't see anything in flying that NA procedure (turn left 10deg at 500') as conflicting with "proceed on course". If the controller wants to specifically require, or prohibit, the following of the NA procedure then they need to use more specific phraseology.

As I said in my first post, I'd fly runway heading to 500', turn 10deg left until pattern altitude, then turn right "on course" to the north.

But that isn't the problem here.

The OP apparently turned LEFT to a northerly heading. The NA procedure really has nothing at all to do with why the controller was surprised.
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Sweet baby jesus, it's really simple, and a semi common clearence.

You take off, clean up

And proceed to your destination.

If that goes with a NA, cool, if it doesn't, that's cool too.
 
Larry in TN said:
You're reading more into it than is there.

"Proceed on course", as the OP typed it, is not defined in the P/CG, regs, or 7110.65. I don't see anything in flying that NA procedure (turn left 10deg at 500') as conflicting with "proceed on course". If the controller wants to specifically require, or prohibit, the following of the NA procedure then they need to use more specific phraseology.

As I said in my first post, I'd fly runway heading to 500', turn 10deg left until pattern altitude, then turn right "on course" to the north.

But that isn't the problem here.

The OP apparently turned LEFT to a northerly heading. The NA procedure really has nothing at all to do with why the controller was surprised.
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Lawd Mercy.JPG
 
James331 said:
If that goes with a NA, cool, if it doesn't, that's cool too.
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You haven't actually read any of my posts, have you? That's a rough approximation of what I said. I just included references to the applicable FAA publications.
 
Larry in TN said:
"Proceed on course", as the OP typed it, is not defined in the P/CG, regs, or 7110.65. I don't see anything in flying that NA procedure (turn left 10deg at 500') as conflicting with "proceed on course". If the controller wants to specifically require, or prohibit, the following of the NA procedure then they need to use more specific phraseology.
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No he doesn't. All he has to do is issue an instruction that conflicts with it and you already confirmed that he did.
 
Larry in TN said:
"Proceed on course" does not conflict with the noise abatement procedure. You can do both.
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"Proceed on course" in this case assumes a right turn, you said so yourself. The noise abatement procedure requires a left turn. You cannot do both.
 
roncachamp said:
"Proceed on course" in this case assumes a right turn, you said so yourself. The noise abatement procedure requires a left turn. You cannot do both.
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It requires a 10 degree left turn prior to making the right turn on course.

The OP's problem was that he made a left turn all the way around to north, not that he made a 10 degree left turn prior to turning right on course.
 
Larry in TN said:
It requires a 10 degree left turn prior to making the right turn on course.
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"Proceed on course" in this case assumes a right turn, you said so yourself. The noise abatement procedure requires a 10 degree left turn. You cannot do both.
 
roncachamp said:
"Proceed on course" in this case assumes a right turn, you said so yourself. The noise abatement procedure requires a 10 degree left turn. You cannot do both.
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Ok, so this is smart aleck, but you can't "fly runway heading until the departure end" and "turn right" both at the same time either.
 
Salty said:
Ok, so this is smart aleck, but you can't "fly runway heading until the departure end" and "turn right" both at the same time either.
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I've issued immediate turnouts as a controller many times. Not the norm but if needed it's done. I've even approved a pilot's request for a turn before departure end. Point is, tower can issue any instructions unless a LOA (letter of Agreement) precludes it. An example would be a noise sensitive area and there's a LOA not authorizing tower to fly planes overhead.
 
mscard88 said:
I've issued immediate turnouts as a controller many times. Not the norm but if needed it's done. I've even approved a pilot's request for a turn before departure end. Point is, tower can issue any instructions unless a LOA (letter of Agreement) precludes it. An example would be a noise sensitive area and there's a LOA not authorizing tower to fly planes overhead.
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But the controller wouldn't expect me to not fly to departure end before turning on course without explicitly telling me to, why is noise ordnance any different?
 
Salty said:
Ok, so this is smart aleck, but you can't "fly runway heading until the departure end" and "turn right" both at the same time either.
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True, you cannot fly straight and turn at the same time, but irrelevant.
 
Salty said:
But the controller wouldn't expect me to not fly to departure end before turning on course without explicitly telling me to, why is noise ordnance any different?
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Because it's a turn in the opposite direction.
 
Salty said:
But the controller wouldn't expect me to not fly to departure end before turning on course without explicitly telling me to, why is noise ordnance any different?
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In the OP's example, he was approved on course, runway heading is 230* so the controller would have (and I would too) expected a turn that's shortest to a northerly heading, which is a right turn not a left turn.
 
The lesson here is: Next time, just ask. "Tower would you like me to turn right on course or left for noise abatement, then on course?"

<---- nut shell kind of guy
 
Timbeck2 said:
The lesson here is: Next time, just ask. "Tower would you like me to turn right on course or left for noise abatement, then on course?"

<---- nut shell kind of guy
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Yup, been said here many times by controllers and other pilots, if you're confused about an ATC instruction, SPEAK UP. That's easier and mo better than thinking, ok guess he wants me to do this so I'll do it then and possibly cause a confliction with another airplane or something that is contrary to what the controller wanted. Controllers aren't always innocent either, and could issue instructions more clearly and understandable IMO.
 
mscard88 said:
In the OP's example, he was approved on course, runway heading is 230* so the controller would have (and I would too) expected a turn that's shortest to a northerly heading, which is a right turn not a left turn.
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It's clear that left turn to course isn't right.
 
Timbeck2 said:
The lesson here is: Next time, just ask. "Tower would you like me to turn right on course or left for noise abatement, then on course?"
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It would have been nice if the OP had identified the airport or provided the complete noise abatement procedure.
 
roncachamp said:
"Proceed on course" in this case assumes a right turn, you said so yourself. The noise abatement procedure requires a 10 degree left turn. You cannot do both.
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Sure you can. You fly the noise abatement procedure then you turn on course.

That's the problem with using phraseology that is not defined. Different people will interpret it differently. If the controller wished to prohibit the pilot from flying the N.A. procedure then he should have used more specific phraseology.

Again, there is no evidence that the controller cared one way or the other about the N.A. procedure. The controller was complaining about the OP making the long left turn to north which we all agree was wrong.
 
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