Clearance delivery on handheld radio at class C/B airports?

[smltk1]

I'm curious if there would be any problems with contacting clearance on a handheld before engine startup on class C/B airports. It seems like they usually take a while to get back to you, especially if there's a lot of flights awaiting for clearance and it's not fun to be waiting for your turn as a lowly VFR aircraft as the Hobbs is running.

I was at SAN a few months ago with another pilot friend and it took the controller about 10 minutes to get back to us after we asked for a VFR departure out of there. Made me cringe at the money we were burning.

So, would there be any sort of problem with this? Before engine startup, I get ATIS, call up clearance delivery, they give me back my clearance and once they tell me to contact ground for taxi, I get in and start her up.

 

[eetrojan]

I train in a class C and was thinking about using a handheld to talk to clearance delivery too. I think it would be ok.

However, since my Hobbs doesn't begin clicking until the engine is running, it occurred to me that making early use of the plane's radio is a valuable part of my pre-flight checking. It seems like a good way to make sure that the radio is working correctly and not misconfigured by the last renter - before I start the engine.

 

[Mach.12]

However, since my Hobbs doesn't begin clicking until the engine is running, it occurred to me that making early use of the plane's radio is a valuable part of my pre-flight checking.

Some Hobbs run when the master is on.

I recommend a handheld. You can find a good used one for as much as an hour in a 172. Through the course of the training(ESP if based at class c or b) it will be worth it.

One of the clubs near me doesn't allow you to get clearances with the engine on because people don't lean and it gums up the plugs. In the winter if you just run the battery, you might kill it.

 

[BillTIZ]

FCC rules not withstanding. You are in the airplane, use the handheld, save the aircraft battery. Depending on how busy the traffic is, you could be given a clearance then, hold for engine start. You don't want to be running the aircraft battery down waiting for the engine start call.

FCC rules, (from old research and memory)
The handheld in the aircraft is operating under the aircraft FCC station license. (not required in US)
Outside the airplane, the handheld has to have an FCC station license to operate. It's not been challenged unless there is an abuse issue. AFAIK

 

[LDJones]

FCC rules not withstanding. You are in the airplane, use the handheld, save the aircraft battery. Depending on how busy the traffic is, you could be given a clearance then, hold for engine start. You don't want to be running the aircraft battery down waiting for the engine start call.

FCC rules, (from old research and memory)
The handheld in the aircraft is operating under the aircraft FCC station license. (not required in US)
Outside the airplane, the handheld has to have an FCC station license to operate. It's not been challenged unless there is an abuse issue. AFAIK

Hmmm...I use a handheld to monitor my students' solo flights and be available if they need me. So I should make sure I'm sitting in another plane to be FCC legal??

 

[BillTIZ]

Hmmm...I use a handheld to monitor my students' solo flights and be available if they need me. So I should make sure I'm sitting in another plane to be FCC legal??

Yes, unless you have a " FCC station license " for the handheld it is not a legal transmitter. If you just listen, no issues.

There are tens of thousands of handhelds out there. As long as there are no issues as in blocking other transmissions to create a safety hazard, frequency bleed over onto other ATC frequencies, or constant use of foul or harassing language that would cause a complaint for the FCC to investigate.

Other than that, no issues. FCC does not have the funds or manpower to go looking for problems. They only act on complaints.

The handheld is a valuable teaching and safety tool.

 

[N801BH]

I'm curious if there would be any problems with contacting clearance on a handheld before engine startup on class C/B airports. It seems like they usually take a while to get back to you, especially if there's a lot of flights awaiting for clearance and it's not fun to be waiting for your turn as a lowly VFR aircraft as the Hobbs is running.

I was at SAN a few months ago with another pilot friend and it took the controller about 10 minutes to get back to us after we asked for a VFR departure out of there. Made me cringe at the money we were burning.

So, would there be any sort of problem with this? Before engine startup, I get ATIS, call up clearance delivery, they give me back my clearance and once they tell me to contact ground for taxi, I get in and start her up.

Standard procedure for me when I go down to SLC and have to depart the Bravo.... It is a greater advantage when traveling in a private biz jet.. That thing is costing 3000+ an hour to run... A handheld pays for itself in about 21 seconds.

 

[Warrior]

None other than the great John King, of King Flying Schools, suggests using a handheld to get a clearance in his Instrument Flying Videos.

 

[spinfire]

Just advise the controller how long it will take you until you will be ready to taxi. They are used to airlines calling up before they are "ready to push".

 

[jonnyjetprop]

I used to do it all the time. I'd also taxi out at Long Beach, CA, shut down and wait for my IFR release. I'd restart, do a quick run up, and depart.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I have done this from time to time so I can get in the system for IFR flights and sometimes for VFR at busier airports. Just make sure you use the phrase "expecting engine start @ ___ after the hour..." or, "anticipate a push back at _____." This way the can get a stip going and get your transponder code and have this ready for you..

I think ATC at some of the busier airports will appreciate this as it will help them with their workload.. And, you sound like a pro which may get you some priority over the pilot that sounds like Hillbilly Dawg

I used to do it all the time. I'd also taxi out at Long Beach, CA, shut down and wait for my IFR release. I'd restart, do a quick run up, and depart.

This is where I learned this little trick....

 

[bobmrg]

Do it. Use the tail number of the airplane you plan to fly (assuming that you are in it or standing next to it).

Bob Gardner

 

[jesse]

In the end I really don't think you're saving much time or money. That little bit of time is good time for the engine(s) to warm up and other systems to spin up. I'd rather have things running for those (on average) two minutes of time it takes to get ATIS and call clearance. It gives you more time to see that systems are working.

Rushing isn't always the best idea....

While renting I was once tempted to try and save every single minute I could. Finally one day it dawned on me that I shouldn't be thinking about the Hobbs meter while flying and should be flying it as if I owned it and didn't care about a minute here or a minute there. It is safer to have that mindset, IMO.

 

[jesse]

I have done this from time to time so I can get in the system for IFR flights and sometimes for VFR at busier airports. Just make sure you use the phrase "expecting engine start @ ___ after the hour..." or, "anticipate a push back at _____." This way the can get a stip going and get your transponder code and have this ready for you..

I think ATC at some of the busier airports will appreciate this as it will help them with their workload.. And, you sound like a pro which may get you some priority over the pilot that sounds like Hillbilly Dawg



This is where I learned this little trick....

I don't think using the term push back with a 172 is going to make you sound like a pro. More like a fool

 

[comanchepilot]

I called Brackett Tower - via phone - and discussed how to use my handheld - I had a guy picking me up on the north side near my car - and my hangar. I said that when the guy arrived I wanted to call ground and tell them he coming to get me and where exactly I was on the field.

They told me to call using my aircraft call sign and notify that I was on handheld and I was being picked up - they'd ask me where. I'd tell them and they'd tell him which means in the real world that they ask if he heard me.

You can't get away with this at a Class C or busy D - but - hey.

As to th OP - I generally use a handheld 100% of the time to get ATIS and CD at B and C. . . . CD will simply tell you to call ground when ready to taxi. So - call ground when ready to taxi. Gives you time to start the engine and load the route . ..

 

[Fearless Tower]

In the end I really don't think you're saving much time or money. That little bit of time is good time for the engine(s) to warm up and other systems to spin up. I'd rather have things running for those (on average) two minutes of time it takes to get ATIS and call clearance. It gives you more time to see that systems are working.

Rushing isn't always the best idea....

Probably depends on the airport and where the delay is being experienced (between clearance and taxi or between taxi and T/O). If there is a ground hold and they won't clear you to taxi off the ramp until they have a slot for you, there is not much point in starting up and sitting on the ramp for 30+ minutes waiting to taxi.

In my experience however, most of the GA delays at class B airports are in waiting to takeoff vice taxi. Up until last summer, I used to fly in and out of PHX fairly often. A handheld wouldn't help at all there - I never experienced a delay between clearance and taxi - it was always sitting in 100+F heat waiting at the end of the ruunway to be cleared to depart.

 

[spinfire]

Unlike the airlines I push back at the end of the flight, not the beginning!

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmmm...I use a handheld to monitor my students' solo flights and be available if they need me. So I should make sure I'm sitting in another plane to be FCC legal??

Legally correct, but the FCC really doesn't care enough to bother going out to nontowered airports looking for CFI's standing next to runways with handhelds.

 

[taters]

Waiting for IFR release time is what can eat Hobbs meters , if your in busy busy airspace a phone call can make sense to at least see what kind of wait is in store. I waited 50 minutes in EWR (low IFR) last summer flying a bonanza to LNK ..I just shut down in the pad ...some planes have a ground com switch that ties one of the radios to the hot bus ( meaning master is off)...these can also be useful.

 

[kgruber]

Do it inside the FBO, while having a cup of coffee. Just tell CD your planned start time.

They don't care. Screw the FCC.

 

[Marauder]

I have used a handheld a number of times at uncontrolled airports with remote CD. I do set their expectation that I need time before my release (just in case they issue an immediate release with an short expiration time). Using a handheld depends a lot on the ATC services in the area. I have waited for 30 minutes for a clearance from a satellite airport and other times they couldn't get me in the system fast enough.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I don't think using the term push back with a 172 is going to make you sound like a pro. More like a fool

Actually the gent that showed me this was an ATP for America West that was the resident safety pilot at our club. Learned more about "flying the system" from him than anywhere else and all it cost me was a cheeseburger from time to time..

Oh! We did this in a 152.... guess in your opinion that made us a bigger fool huh?

 

[taters]

Actually the gent that showed me this was an ATP for America West that was the resident safety pilot at our club. Learned more about "flying the system" from him than anywhere else and all it cost me was a cheeseburger from time to time..

Oh! We did this in a 152.... guess in your opinion that made us a bigger fool huh?

Did he also show you how to call metering for pushback ?

 

[bnt83]

Did he also show you how to call metering for pushback ?

They do it for me out of Hangar B. I don't rent that plane often tho.

 

[oldShar]

Legally correct, but the FCC really doesn't care enough to bother going out to nontowered airports looking for CFI's standing next to runways with handhelds.

I would agree with this.
I think the FCC intends that the transmitter be associated with a particular station (meaning, a specific aircraft) and that, like escort duty, that considers control of the escortee to require they only be in visual contact, to be close enough for government work to be in compliance; so a CFI monitoring a student in the pattern from the ramp (or taxiway) would be close enough to be in compliance.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Did he also show you how to call metering for pushback ?

Don't think so... care to elucidate and impart some of your professional knowledge to the group and explain what this is and how it could help us in the future?

 

[Dead Stick]

At work, we normally pick up our IFR clearances about 15 to 30 minutes prior to starting engines. While we're waiting for the boss to show up, we spend this time getting ourselves oriented and up to speed with taxi routings, clearance, DPs, etc. We're doing it using our avionics powered by our APU. Having a handheld allows you to have the same advantage. There is really no need to rush through this stuff. When you're ready you just start up, get things warmed up then call for taxi clearance and go.

 

[N801BH]

Don't think so... care to elucidate and impart some of your professional knowledge to the group and explain what this is and how it could help us in the future?

Hmmmmm...

Fast forward to 2021 when ADS-B is fully operational... You are a lowly VFR aircraft wanting to head to the next airfield, 10 miles away for breakfast... Seems the FAA controllers were scheduled to work that day decided to call in sick and use one for their multiple paid sick days the unions had fought so hard for.......

So, to keep you from (clogging) their system they call you back on CD and simply say........ : "Sorry charlie,,, put it back in the hangar as we don't have a slot for you" ......

Archive this and reread it in 7 years and say..... That crazy Ben was right..

 

[Ventucky Red]

Hmmmmm...

Fast forward to 2021 when ADS-B is fully operational... You are a lowly VFR aircraft wanting to head to the next airfield, 10 miles away for breakfast... Seems the FAA controllers were scheduled to work that day decided to call in sick and use one for their multiple paid sick days the unions had fought so hard for.......

So, to keep you from (clogging) their system they call you back on CD and simply say........ : "Sorry charlie,,, put it back in the hangar as we don't have a slot for you" ......

Archive this and reread it in 7 years and say..... That crazy Ben was right..

Poor little ole me.. I hope I am still able to fly in 2021..

Sad to say, but I think natural attrition due to the cost of GA is going to cull the heard as they say! They'll be begging for someone to talk to.

About the crazy thing.. have you been tested?

 

[W. Stewart]

I have used a handheld radio to get my IFR clearance at Class C's (and once at CLT, a class B) while sitting in the air conditioning in the FBO rather than sweating outside or in the plane.

I have also found it useful at Princeton, NJ, an uncontrolled field with radar services provided by New York. I resorted to this at Princeton after once calling for my clearance after starting the engine and being told to call back in ten minutes. My plane at that time was a Cardinal RG that was often VERY difficult to hot start. On that occasion, I took off anyway VFR and tried to pick up my clearance in the air--they actually told me to go back and land before calling them! Needless to say, I ran scud while filing a new IFR flight plan with Flight Service, with the "departure point" being a VOR in Philly's airspace. While it was legal VMC, I really didn't like scud running on a hazy thunderstormy afternoon in unfamiliar crowded airspace, dodging Class D's while doing the required radio work, all single-pilot.

Wells

 

[wsuffa]

I don't think using the term push back with a 172 is going to make you sound like a pro. More like a fool

It seems to me that one of the airports in the Phoenix area (KSDL, I think?) has/had a notice on the ATIS that aircraft should call for clearance prior to engine start & request tower permission prior to start. IIRC, it's part of noise abatement.

 

[JimNtexas]

I have a $79 radio shack hand held scanner that I take with me. If I have to wait for a clearance I shut the airplane down and listen to clearance delivery on it.

When they call I just flip the master switch and answer with the airplane's radio.

If I flew more, or if KAUS tower wasn't as well run as it is I'd probably invest in a transceiver. I sometimes fly into Addison in Dallas, long delays for clearance are the rule there.

I was traumatized during my IFR training when we had to sit and spin the hobbs meter for 20 minutes waiting for a clearance at Addison. Like many flight schools, the hobbs was wired to the master switch so as to extract some extra bucks from the students.

And they wonder why so many people drop out of GA.

 

[N801BH]

...... On that occasion, I took off anyway VFR and tried to pick up my clearance in the air--they actually told me to go back and land before calling them! .......

.


.....

The scary part is they probably have actually conned pilots into landing..

 

[bbchien]

.


.....

The scary part is they probably have actually conned pilots into landing..

Ben at many points along the east cost, Tracon will simply not open any flight plan in the air.

It's egregious.

 

[SCCutler]

I use a handheld all the time to listen to ATIS and pick up my clearance 30 minutes before schedule departure time. No one in the tower cares. At some FBO's we frequent (Dallas and Nassau specifically) there's a desktop radio in the WX room for that exact purpose.

Nice touch - FBO at Hobby (Signature?) had microphones hanging on the wall in the flight planning room for this purpose. Nice touch. Calling for the clearance first saves more than money, it can allow you to save ten or fifteen minutes of hot-in-the-airplane time, too!

It seems to me that one of the airports in the Phoenix area (KSDL, I think?) has/had a notice on the ATIS that aircraft should call for clearance prior to engine start & request tower permission prior to start. IIRC, it's part of noise abatement.

Have seen a few of these; SGR (Sugar Land) used to be this way, but is no more.

I have a $79 radio shack hand held scanner that I take with me. If I have to wait for a clearance I shut the airplane down and listen to clearance delivery on it.

When they call I just flip the master switch and answer with the airplane's radio.

If I flew more, or if KAUS tower wasn't as well run as it is I'd probably invest in a transceiver. I sometimes fly into Addison in Dallas, long delays for clearance are the rule there.

I was traumatized during my IFR training when we had to sit and spin the hobbs meter for 20 minutes waiting for a clearance at Addison. Like many flight schools, the hobbs was wired to the master switch so as to extract some extra bucks from the students.

And they wonder why so many people drop out of GA.

Based aircraft get to wait, too!

 

[Everskyward]

I have done this from time to time so I can get in the system for IFR flights and sometimes for VFR at busier airports. Just make sure you use the phrase "expecting engine start @ ___ after the hour..." or, "anticipate a push back at _____." This way the can get a stip going and get your transponder code and have this ready for you..

Nothing wrong with calling ahead but did he really tell you to use the term "push back"?

We normally call for clearance in advance but don't give them an estimate for engine start. They usually don't care but they will tell you if they do. As Bill pointed out, some airports will want a call immediately before starting engines, especially if they have many airplanes getting ready to taxi.

 

[flyingron]

I have used a handheld radio to get my IFR clearance at Class C's (and once at CLT, a class B) while sitting in the air conditioning in the FBO rather than sweating outside or in the plane.

Crikes, you could just call them on the phone.

 

[JeffDG]

Legally correct, but the FCC really doesn't care enough to bother going out to nontowered airports looking for CFI's standing next to runways with handhelds.

Yep.

And, technically, to be "FCC Legal" you'd need a unicom license at each field you planned to stand on the ramp at. Ground licenses are issued for specific locations where they can be used!

 

[davidm767]

My FBO has a COM base station in the planning room to contact ATC for departure. We are in an SFAR 93 area and once you leave the Class E airspace you are either in Class D or Restricted Airspace...in other words you MUST contact ATC to get clearance to fly through the two corridors (N/S E/W) prior to departing. I see absolutely no reason why you can’t contact the Clearance Delivery service without the engine or battery running.

Second case. I had to open a clearance via a remote station on a Class E airport in Class C airspace. I simply used my handheld to "Dial" into clearance (5 clicks on a frequency to open a phone line...reminded me of a ship to shore phone rig).
No matter how you do it, just keep in mind that clearance D may be a really busy entity (especially in actual IFR). They care not when you call them, as long as you don’t wait excessively to depart or bust a clearance limit time.

 

[roncachamp]

]Second case. I had to open a clearance via a remote station on a Class E airport in Class C airspace. I simply used my handheld to "Dial" into clearance (5 clicks on a frequency to open a phone line...reminded me of a ship to shore phone rig). [/FONT][/COLOR]
No matter how you do it, just keep in mind that clearance D may be a really busy entity (especially in actual IFR). They care not when you call them, as long as you don’t wait excessively to depart or bust a clearance limit time.

A "Class E airport" is an airport in a Class E surface area. A "Class C airport" is an airport in a Class C surface area. There can be no Class E airports in Class C surface areas.