Class 1/2 deferral vs. Class 3 eligibility?

[StraightnLevel]

While I was at the AME office this morning, I found myself wondering what would happen if I didn't clear the vision hurdle for Class 2, but otherwise OK for Class 3......

Does a deferral for Class 1 or 2 automatically make you ineligible for Class 3? Class 1 deferral ineligible for Class 2? If the issue preventing the higher level approval doesn't apply to Class 3, can you simply apply for a Class 3 and proceed as normal?

[I have a fresh Class 2 today, so this is purely a hypothetical exercise.]

 

[flyingron]

What makes you think you're would get deferred? Usually on vision you either pass or you don't. If all else is normal, the AME can issue a third as a consolation prize, but frankly there's only slight differences in acuity and it's recommended you be ready to go with glasses or whatever.

I was able to squint my way through the third for years (though I did wear glasses). The AMEs were always willing to let me try to not have the restriciton on my medical.

 

[Lindberg]

This is a trick question, right? Who would go into an exam with the AME not knowing whether he's going to pass? That's why we have consultations.

 

[TCABM]

Why not have a current (w/in 30 days) 8500-7 to hand to the AME?

 

[StraightnLevel]

If all else is normal, the AME can issue a third as a consolation prize,

That's the answer I was looking for.

The question came up in my mind when the nurse (tech?) put the wrong card in the viewer, which was set up for an absolutely unreadable distance. When the machine was set up correctly I passed without any problem, but it occurred to me that I truly didn't know what the outcome would be if I couldn't meet the Class 2 standard.

 

[StraightnLevel]

This is a trick question, right? Who would go into an exam with the AME not knowing whether he's going to pass? That's why we have consultations.

Of course you are correct, but the question always lingers in the back of my mind.....what if?

 

[BillTIZ]

I always got a Class 2, even with the onset of needing bi-focals. This year, pushing that magic 70th birthday and not needing a Class 2 for the last 15 years, I elected to just get a Class 3. I was surprised at the vision portion of the interview. So simple. Granted, 2 years ago the AME asked why I was not using Basic Med.

 

[tlglenn]

You can obtain a letter of authorization from the regional flight surgeon to let you schedule a medical flight test with the FSDO. Might be faster to get corrective eye surgery.

 

[StraightnLevel]

If all else is normal, the AME can issue a third as a consolation prize,

So, what if you go in for a Class 1 and fail the ECG? Not required for Class 3, but...?

 

[Mark K]

Well, if you "fail" a stress test, the presumption is that you have coronary artery disease and you have to ground yourself until it's all sorted out. You don't get a class three consolation prize for a blocked artery...

 

[bbchien]

if you are looking for an upgrade it's an error to wait until you need a new medical to just fly (as in the last month). You fly on a valid third, then >90 days after that was issued you go back for a First, and you PREPARE FOR IT (get glasses). If he has to defer, you then sill have the 3rd.

However if you are applying to part 141 companies: Why would you EVER go without knowing you are corrected to 20/20 BEFORE you get there. You might not belive it, but it is posslbe to be too cheap to be an airline pilot.

 

[dans2992]

Is it possible to bring in a report from an eye doctor, or are they required to test you in office?

 

[bbchien]

The way it's written if the eye care professional is known to the AME he can accept the Professional's report and has to provide same to FAA. He is not compelled to do so however.

 

[TCABM]

… You might not belive it, but it is posslbe to be too cheap to be an airline pilot.

That’s an understatement.

 

[Lindberg]

So, what if you go in for a Class 1 and fail the stress test? Not required for Class 3, but...?

There's no stress test required for a first class

 

[WDD]

I always got a Class 2, even with the onset of needing bi-focals. This year, pushing that magic 70th birthday and not needing a Class 2 for the last 15 years, I elected to just get a Class 3. I was surprised at the vision portion of the interview. So simple. Granted, 2 years ago the AME asked why I was not using Basic Med.

70 year's and still kicking it - nice!

Slight tangent to the OP question: Why did you get the Class 2 when you didn't need it? Doesn't last as long as a 3rd, and even more so vs Basic Med. Seems like a lot of visits to the AME could have been avoided. In fact, With Basic Med they could have all been avoided.

Thanks -

 

[StraightnLevel]

Slight tangent to the OP question: Why did you get the Class 2 when you didn't need it?

I'm currently working towards commercial.

Doesn't last as long as a 3rd, and even more so vs Basic Med.

??? It lasts 1 years as Class 2, then another year as Class 3. There is no downside, and the upside of having commercial and Class 2 is tax and insurance related.

 

[StraightnLevel]

There's no stress test required for a first class

Corrected to ECG - thanks.

 

[TCABM]

I'm currently working towards commercial…

A class 2 medical certificate is required for the type of operation, not the certificate.

In otherwords, unless you’re exercising the privileges of the commercial certificate (that aren’t already carved out) a Second Class medical is not required.

14 CFR 61.23 and .133 are the relevant references.

 

[WDD]

??? It lasts 1 years as Class 2, then another year as Class 3. There is no downside, and the upside of having commercial and class 2/Comm is tax and insurance related.

You're right, the class 2 kicks to class 3. But you no longer have a class 2 for that second year, and no longer your advantages for a class 2. Basic Med is 4 years. And you minimize the risk of losing your medical and not fly at all.

But..... I'm not familiar with any tax or insurance advantages of Class 2 vs 3 vs Basic Med. Please tell more if you can. What might we be missing? Great learning new angles on these things!

 

[WDD]

A class 2 medical certificate is required for the type of operation, not the certificate.

In otherwords, unless you’re exercising the privileges of the commercial certificate (that aren’t already carved out) a Second Class medical is not required.

14 CFR 61.23 and .133 are the relevant references.

FWIW - you can get a Commercial certificate with Basic Med. Heck, you can even be a CFI and now a DPE with Basic Med.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I'm not familiar with any tax or insurance advantages of Class 2 vs 3 vs Basic Med. Please tell more if you can. What might we be missing? Great learning new angles on these things!

You'd need to speak to your tax professional, but if you are claiming the cost of your flight time as a business expense, that can be construed as flying for compensation.

 

[StraightnLevel]

FWIW - you can get a Commercial certificate with Basic Med. Heck, you can even be a CFI and now a DPE with Basic Med.

Yes, those operations are specifically carved out. You cannot, however, generally fly for compensation without a Class 2 (at least not as I read 61.23).

Please, somebody tell me if I'm reading it wrong, but it certainly reads to me as if a Class 2 is required if you are accepting compensation for flying as PIC, and that can be construed to include logging flight hours, collecting compensation above and beyond a pro rata share, and/or taking tax benefits for the costs of the flight.

 

[WDD]

Yes, those operations are specifically carved out. You cannot, however, generally fly for compensation without a Class 2

You are correct.

Are you currently getting a paycheck for flying? I ask because I thought you mentioned you let your 2nd expire and then work it as a third.

In any rate, what tax and insurance benefits are you getting with a 2nd class?

 

[StraightnLevel]

You are correct.

Are you currently getting a paycheck for flying? I ask because I thought you mentioned you let your 2nd expire and then work it as a third.

In any rate, what tax and insurance benefits are you getting with a 2nd class?

"Compensation" =/= paycheck. This has been made clear in several letters of interpretation, including "Kirwan", "Mangiamele" and "Williams". From Williams:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has construed compensation broadly. Compensation "does not require a profit, a profit motive, or the actual payment of funds." Legal Interpretation to Joseph Kirwan (May 27, 2005). Rather, compensation is the receipt of anything of value. The FAA has previously found that reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), accumulation of flight time, and goodwill in the form of expect future economic benefit could be considered compensation

I will not disclose specific financial information like that in a public forum, and I'm surprised that anyone would ask. This area is a legal and tax minefield.

 

[TCABM]

"Compensation" =/= paycheck...

First things first, don’t confuse a tax issue with the type of operation you are conducting.

Put differently, expensing the airplane and associated costs is different than conducting a commercial operation. The type of operation is what drives the medical certificate.

 

[StraightnLevel]

First things first, don’t confuse a tax issue with the type of operation you are conducting.

Put differently, expensing the airplane and associated costs is different than conducting a commercial operation. The type of operation is what drives the medical certificate.

Assemble the pieces.

Any flight for compensation requires a commercial certification.
Any flight for which costs are reimbursed, or in which multiple people are being flown requires a commercial cert.

It's not a matter of "commercial operation". It is a matter of how the money flows and what can be construed by the FAA as "compensation" - and yes, it is absolutely a tax issue.

 

[WDD]

All good. Not being nosy, just not sure if this situation was where you were getting paid by an operator, if you were an operator, etc. Not sure how a 2nd class could affect insurance or taxes if not.

Not implying that you’re not following the rules.

Carry on, blue skies.

 

[dans2992]

In my experience, commercial cert or 2nd class medical doesn’t matter at all to insurance companies.

 

[StraightnLevel]

All good. Not being nosy, just not sure if this situation was where you were getting paid by an operator,

No, and I have no current interest in anything like that. It's more a matter of making sure that use of the plane for personal business is legal, and there are a number of situations where it requires a Commercial cert because of the financial/tax treatment.

 

[BillTIZ]

70 year's and still kicking it - nice!

Slight tangent to the OP question: Why did you get the Class 2 when you didn't need it? Doesn't last as long as a 3rd, and even more so vs Basic Med. Seems like a lot of visits to the AME could have been avoided. In fact, With Basic Med they could have all been avoided.

Thanks -

kicking it... thanks! Still flying most single engine and gliders. Primarily PA-28R-201, C-182T, PA-25 and L-19F.

I always needed the Class 2 military equivalent for my military flying. The Mil Flight Doc's were set up to issue the civilian Class 2 certificate when I did yearly review with them when on active duty.

Why a Class 2 after retirement? Always held out for that time someone needed me to ferry an aircraft that I could get paid to do. Or needed a right seat pilot on a twin. I thought of getting into the ferry pilot business. But that took away from my other retirement activities. So I would have the Class 2 for a year, then fly on the downgraded 2, i.e. Class 3 until I needed to renew.

Besides, all my AMEs were old Air Force Flight Doc's and it was always good to chat and tell war stories about our careers.

 

[BillTIZ]

if you are looking for an upgrade it's an error to wait until you need a new medical to just fly (as in the last month). You fly on a valid third, then >90 days after that was issued you go back for a First, and you PREPARE FOR IT (get glasses). If he has to defer, you then sill have the 3rd.

However if you are applying to part 141 companies: Why would you EVER go without knowing you are corrected to 20/20 BEFORE you get there. You might not belive it, but it is posslbe to be too cheap to be an airline pilot.

I always got Class 2. 2-3 months before I needed to renew my Class 2, I would visit the local optician and make sure my contacts/glasses could get me to 20/20 or better. Then I would visit the AME and pass his eye checks. Same with my BP Meds, visit the PCP before visiting the AME.