City of Phoenix has officially lost its mind!

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/travel/phoenix-sues-faa-airplane-noise/index.html

WTF Phoenix??? The FAA did not bring the traffic....YOU (city leaders) brought it by increasing business in the area for decades!

As a legal resident of AZ, this is quite simply embarrassing to see in national news. I have no idea what the folks interviewed are thinking. Yes, traffic has increased, but good grief people what did you expect??? You did this to yourselves!

And let's get real here......I was born and raised in the Phoenix area. Grew up around PHX and dad's airplane used to be based there. That was the days of 727s/DC-8s and 707s with JT8s and JT3s and no hush-kits'.

THAT was noise.
 
Anyone want to be the people under the old flight patterns will be the next ones raising hell??
 
Nothing compared to the F-106's that used to scramble out of the Air Guard base where I grew up.

Nothing happened in class while that was going on.
 
Fearless Tower said:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/travel/phoenix-sues-faa-airplane-noise/index.html

WTF Phoenix??? The FAA did not bring the traffic....YOU (city leaders) brought it by increasing business in the area for decades!

As a legal resident of AZ, this is quite simply embarrassing to see in national news. I have no idea what the folks interviewed are thinking. Yes, traffic has increased, but good grief people what did you expect??? You did this to yourselves!

And let's get real here......I was born and raised in the Phoenix area. Grew up around PHX and dad's airplane used to be based there. That was the days of 727s/DC-8s and 707s with JT8s and JT3s and no hush-kits'.

THAT was noise.
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As I read the piece it seemed that the residents were complaining about the noise from the new traffic patterns. Sounds like they put approach and departure paths over areas that never had them before. Does not seem to be an issue of moving next to the town dump and complaining about the smell but rather the town redirecting the odor from the dump.

MikeELP said:
Yea, that. Or the airlines could cut flights by say 50% and increase fares by 200% and then say "Are you happy now?" :D
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My guess is the people that are complaining would be a happy with that. The rest of Phoenix? Well now that's a different story.

I'm really surprised no one commented on this line from the CNN article:

"When I talk to my wife, I can't hear what she says," Phoenix resident Michael March said.";):nono::rofl:
 
AdamZ said:
...My guess is the people that are complaining would be a happy with that. The rest of Phoenix? Well now that's a different story.
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Probably true...but it is The City of Phoenix that is suing, not a few individuals. It would be fun to see the airlines tell Phoenix to go pound sand. And they've got plenty of it!! :D
 
AdamZ said:
I'm really surprised no one commented on this line from the CNN article:

"When I talk to my wife, I can't hear what she says," Phoenix resident Michael March said.";):nono::rofl:
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Good catch...I hadn't noticed that. Maybe one the new flight paths goes right over the Shady Acres Assisted Living Community? :yesnod:
 
AdamZ said:
I'm really surprised no one commented on this line from the CNN article:

"When I talk to my wife, I can't hear what she says," Phoenix resident Michael March said.";):nono::rofl:
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Another argument for increased air traffic. Husbands of Phoenix rejoice!
 
One of the guys I hired was a former ATC from Hawthorne tower. He told me the tower supe bought a house near the airport (for convenience) and then proceeded to complain regularly about airplane noise.
 
roncachamp said:
The solution is simple and obvious; close the airport.
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Every time I read one of your posts, the voice in my mind sounds like your avatar. This post is a perfect example.
 
You can't make everyone happy,another case of everything was fine ,untill you flew over my house. Did you not buy a house in the vicinity of the airport?
 
The solution is the throw away the agreement they have with Tempe about noise, which should never have been signed with to begin with. Why a city that the airport isn't in has the ability to dictate how to operate the airport is beyond me.
 
:) Tempe is a haven of liberal college kids ===> Activist City. They live to ***** and will never be satisfied
 
Well, since USAirways pulled the headquarters out and moved it to Ft. Worth (AA's old HQ), there is less leverage by the FAA/airlines and less economic incentive for Phoenix to "be nice".

Of course, AA/US can work to move the rest of the staff out pronto, like Delta has drawn down the old NW staff at MSP.

MikeELP said:
Yea, that. Or the airlines could cut flights by say 50% and increase fares by 200% and then say "Are you happy now?" :D
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That may happen anyway with the US/AA merger. AA has a big hub at LAX and DFW, either of which can absorb traffic that now goes through PHX. And I'd bet that DFW would be glad to have the traffic. Each of the other airline mergers have seen draw-downs of the old hubs: for example, DL has drawn-down CVG, MEM, and a couple of others... UA has drawn down CLE.

MikeELP said:
Probably true...but it is The City of Phoenix that is suing, not a few individuals. It would be fun to see the airlines tell Phoenix to go pound sand. And they've got plenty of it!! :D
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Essentially, AA/US started to last year with the merger and HQ move to DFW. I would not be surprised if this is a volley from the city over that move. But the airline holds the cards with a couple of other hub options. It could turn out to be a moot point as the airline (inevitably) moves elsewhere.
 
wsuffa said:
That may happen anyway with the US/AA merger. AA has a big hub at LAX and DFW, either of which can absorb traffic that now goes through PHX. And I'd bet that DFW would be glad to have the traffic. Each of the other airline mergers have seen draw-downs of the old hubs: for example, DL has drawn-down CVG, MEM, and a couple of others... UA has drawn down CLE.
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Not going to happen. LAX is too congested as it is, DFW wouldn't make sense for domestic SW connections. PHX may shrink, but it's not going anywhere as a hub, not without someone else stepping in and making it a hub. Too big of a city to not be a hub for someone.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Not going to happen. LAX is too congested as it is, DFW wouldn't make sense for domestic SW connections. PHX may shrink, but it's not going anywhere as a hub, not without someone else stepping in and making it a hub. Too big of a city to not be a hub for someone.
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Salt Lake available? Vegas could be an option.
 
I can see the gripe, as it was changed, not existing: "The FAA decided to move a highway in the sky...", "All we want is just the old flight patterns to be put back"

But they are living in the city, move to the burbs!

Now, they'll put it back and the people enjoying the new peace and quiet since last September will get to complain about the 'new' noise. :)
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Not going to happen. LAX is too congested as it is, DFW wouldn't make sense for domestic SW connections. PHX may shrink, but it's not going anywhere as a hub, not without someone else stepping in and making it a hub. Too big of a city to not be a hub for someone.
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PHX is only a hub because of America West, which became US. I can see it shrink substantially. With the range they're putting on the RJs these days, DFW and LAX are viable alternatives. Frankly, if I were starting with a clean sheet and picking a new hub, it would be LAS.

Size of the city alone doesn't make a place a good hub... the importance as a business source/destination is the key (along with lack of competition from other carriers). San Antonio, for example, is roughly the same size as PHX, and is growing faster but is not a hub. Los Angeles is substantially larger and has substantially more business traffic (along with international flights). AA/US has already moved the DCA-PHX flight to LAX. (Also note that CLT hub is not likely to change a lot given the importance of the market as a financial center)

LAX may be busy, but that's what makes it a good hub. And AA/US needs to beef up there to compete with UA and DL, as well as make international connections on own metal and partners.

EdFred said:
Salt Lake available? Vegas could be an option.
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SLC is a Delta Hub, competing with UA in Denver. LAS is an option, but would probably need more terminal space - it also is too close to LAX to work well. It's also a lot of low-profitability vacation traffic.
 
wsuffa said:
PHX is only a hub because of America West, which became US. I can see it shrink substantially. With the range they're putting on the RJs these days, DFW and LAX are viable alternatives. Frankly, if I were starting with a clean sheet and picking a new hub, it would be LAS.

Size of the city alone doesn't make a place a good hub... the importance as a business source/destination is the key (along with lack of competition from other carriers). San Antonio, for example, is roughly the same size as PHX, and is growing faster but is not a hub. Los Angeles is substantially larger and has substantially more business traffic (along with international flights). AA/US has already moved the DCA-PHX flight to LAX. (Also note that CLT hub is not likely to change a lot given the importance of the market as a financial center)
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LAS was a hub for America West and never worked. It's a low yield market, not a business market. I'm not sure why people think PHX is just going to go away, there is a lot of capacity there. Sure, it's likely to be downsized, but it will still be a hub for the new American.

Even if they do downsize it, it's going to take years. And don't forget, while they kept the American name, Doug Parker is in charge, and PHX is his baby.
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
LAS was a hub for America West and never worked. It's a low yield market, not a business market. I'm not sure why people think PHX is just going to go away, there is a lot of capacity there. Sure, it's likely to be downsized, but it will still be a hub for the new American.
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Focus city, maybe. Hub, not likely long-term. Again, look at how Memphis was downsized. Or CVG for that matter (and it was the fortress of all fortress hubs).

I noted the LAS issue later in my post.
 
I believe a large part of the gripe is the way the FAA did their thing. Kinda like when they changed the Class B with total disregard for all input from local people, groups, Arizona and national flying associations. There was a lot of accusations of lying and side-stepping of normal process. Prior to the changes, there was very little to no complaints about noise.
 
AdamZ said:
I'm really surprised no one commented on this line from the CNN article:

"When I talk to my wife, I can't hear what she says," Phoenix resident Michael March said.";):nono::rofl:
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Shoot, I'd pay 50% over market to anyone who wants to sell based on that feature alone...
 
Hah! even the residents hate the new RNAV STARs lol
 
CT4ME said:
I believe a large part of the gripe is the way the FAA did their thing. Kinda like when they changed the Class B with total disregard for all input from local people, groups, Arizona and national flying associations. There was a lot of accusations of lying and side-stepping of normal process. Prior to the changes, there was very little to no complaints about noise.
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there was a lot of stakeholder input on the procedures. Since the planes can fly a constant descent they're actually supposed to help noise abatement.
 
Well, there's been two changes of management since the day, but many of us remember when US Air summarily pulled out their major hub out of Pittsburgh after extracting lots of local concessions and improvements.

The Phoenix operation was US Airways in name only, it was America West who bought the moribund remnants of US Air just as American is grabbing what's left of Cactus.

None of these acquisitions has improved on the crappy attitudes by the USAir staff around here. People are still bitter over the Piedmont acquisition
 
MikeELP said:
Probably true...but it is The City of Phoenix that is suing, not a few individuals. It would be fun to see the airlines tell Phoenix to go pound sand. And they've got plenty of it!! :D
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I don't get this attitude at all. Why should the airlines be able to run rough shod over the citizens of the city they operate in?

From the article-

The cacophony started last September, when the FAA changed flight paths in the Phoenix area. Both the FAA and airlines said the changes would increase safety and decrease fuel costs, the city of Phoenix said.
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So the airlines should be free to increase their profits at the expense of your enjoyment of your home and the a resulting drop in your home's value? Sure, the people that bought their homes under the existing paths knew what they were getting into and got a big discount on the homes they bought, but the people under the new paths did not sign up for the noise and now get to lose a substantial amount of money on their homes.

I think a law suit is in order because the FAA and airlines just went and made changes that impact a whole community without any community input, or community control. I am 100% sure you would feel different if suddenly your house had all the windows rattling about every 40 minutes or more in the afternoon and you came to realize you just lost 40% or more of your home's value all so the airlines could make more money. How would you feel pounding that sand?
 
jimbilly said:
I can see the gripe, as it was changed, not existing: "The FAA decided to move a highway in the sky...", "All we want is just the old flight patterns to be put back"

But they are living in the city, move to the burbs!

Now, they'll put it back and the people enjoying the new peace and quiet since last September will get to complain about the 'new' noise. :)
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Yes, but the people under the old fight path signed up for the noise, got a big discount on their house purchase and the new people did not. If the airlines want to keep these new routes, then the right thing to do is to compensate every home owner under those paths so they can afford to "move to the burbs". With the new noise and the resulting drop in home value, many of these people may now be under water on their mortgages and stuck.
 
Dav8or said:
I don't get this attitude at all. Why should the airlines be able to run rough shod over the citizens of the city they operate in?

From the article-



So the airlines should be free to increase their profits at the expense of your enjoyment of your home and the a resulting drop in your home's value? Sure, the people that bought their homes under the existing paths knew what they were getting into and got a big discount on the homes they bought, but the people under the new paths did not sign up for the noise and now get to lose a substantial amount of money on their homes.

I think a law suit is in order because the FAA and airlines just went and made changes that impact a whole community without any community input, or community control. I am 100% sure you would feel different if suddenly your house had all the windows rattling about every 40 minutes or more in the afternoon and you came to realize you just lost 40% or more of your home's value all so the airlines could make more money. How would you feel pounding that sand?
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They live in a big city. No sympathy here.
 
Dav8or said:
I think a law suit is in order because the FAA and airlines just went and made changes that impact a whole community without any community input, or community control.
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this is 100% not at all how it went down.
 
Dav8or said:
Seriously, you have no sympathy for anyone anywhere, anytime, so that's no surprise at all.:rolleyes:
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Just towards people that don't use their brain.

Move to city: ***** about traffic.
Move to country: ***** about farm smells.
Move near airport: ***** about airplanes.

Dumbasses don't deserve any.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm going from the attached article and that's all. So enlighten us. How did it "go down"?
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the FAA has spent years rolling out rnav arrivals all over the country. There is a long period of stakeholder input, the city being one of the stakeholders since it's "their" airport.

the real irony of it is that noise abatement was a selling point to the cities. The profile makes for a higher longer and power off descent (supposedly) making for less noise.

the pilots mostly seem to hate the things, but their management wants them on them.. So do the approach controllers.

So the question begs, what do they accomplish? They save fuel, but they actually decrease aircraft acceptance rates (compression) and apparently at least in this case don't help with noise.
 
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