Citation 550 down at SVH

I see it's common here to editorialize others when quoting, and - leaving out context from the original. Hmmm, not a fan. Oh well.

I need more guidance in the regs here. This was a charter flight.
No. It was a Part 91 flight.
[/quote] The right seat kid was a PPL with an Inst rating, but NO commercial. Basically, same as me. No twin rating or experience, no comm, just IMC rating. Can I even do any lawful flight tasks? SIC? Safety monitor? Radio monkey? Ballast?
[/QUOTE]
You can do anything the PIC asks. The legal requirement to ACT as SIC would be instrument and multiengine ratings. As owner of the airplane, Biffle could have done so with a Private certificate, but a hired SIC would need a Commercial.
 
I was mistaken. It seemed like a charter flight to me, but if it was a part 91 flight, I guess that's where some of the confusion lies. Apologies, still don't know if I could do anything of value on this flight.

Edit to add; the report continuously refers to the "right seat PASSENGER". (emphasis mine)
 
Hmmm,

From the NTSB report:

Wreckage and Impact Information

Crew Injuries: 2 Fatal

Aircraft Damage: Substantial
Passenger Injuries: 5 Fatal
Aircraft Fire: On-ground
Ground Injuries: Aircraft Explosion: Unknown
Total Injuries: 7 Fatal Latitude, Longitude: 35.763788,-80.941827 (est)

I neglected to read the early paras where it was defined as a part 91, my bad.

The report also defines the type of flight plan filed: "IFR"

?
 
Hmmm,

From the NTSB report:

Wreckage and Impact Information

Crew Injuries: 2 Fatal

Aircraft Damage: Substantial
Passenger Injuries: 5 Fatal
Aircraft Fire: On-ground
Ground Injuries: Aircraft Explosion: Unknown
Total Injuries: 7 Fatal Latitude, Longitude: 35.763788,-80.941827 (est)

I neglected to read the early paras where it was defined as a part 91, my bad.

The report also defines the type of flight plan filed: "IFR"

?
It's not unusual for the FAA or NTSB to use the phrase "pilot rated passenger" in situations such as this. It acknowledges the person had a certificate, but was not qualified to act as a legal crew member.
 
It's not unusual for the FAA or NTSB to use the phrase "pilot rated passenger" in situations such as this. It acknowledges the person had a certificate, but was not qualified to act as a legal crew member.
Aside from the double negative; 'not un...' the body of the discussion doesn't say "pilot rated passenger". It says exactly "right seat passenger".

But, in the data block on page 7 it says there were two crew.

FAA definition: "Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time."
 
Aside from the double negative; 'not un...' the body of the discussion doesn't say "pilot rated passenger". It says exactly "right seat passenger".

But, in the data block on page 7 it says there were two crew.

FAA definition: "Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time."

My comment was an aside, not judgement on the wording used by the NTSB.

Why does this matter? It's a preliminary report, and calling the person a crew member doesn't mean the NTSB is legitimizing his presence as a properly certificated and rated pilot.

While "not unusual" is a double negative, it is also a litote, a common usage, and considered grammatically acceptable. I would otherwise feel deep shame making a compositional mistake on an internet forum, where proper phraseology is considered mandatory.
 
Risk stacking.
Seems the PIC’s panel temporarily went dark due to a mismanaged generator switch.
In CAVU weather, no big deal.
The NTSB will most likely nail it down.
 
Seems the PIC’s panel temporarily went dark due to a mismanaged generator switch.
Turning off the generator doesn't kill the flight instruments and altimeter on the left side because the battery and other generator will assume the load unless the 225a current limiter is also blown. Then, the #1 inverter for AC flight instruments would lose its DC input. When Biffle referred to "alternator", could he have meant reference to the AC inverter? :dunno: Switching to #2 might have been the fix.
 
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Having recently dealt with an insurer on a rather modest claim, the diff between 'crew' and 'passenger' may be the difference between zero compensation and possibly millions to the insured, and against the insurance, or the policy payer.

Below is a small, marginal taste of what an insurance settlement looks like. This is two paras out of six pages, and this is for a claim under $250k.

1.4 WHEREAS, the Parties to this Release now desire to settle and compromise any
and all bodily injury claims as asserted by xxxxxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy and against
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzz and qqqqqqqqqqqqq in connection with
the Incident, and release any and all bodily injury claims, causes of action, and/or potential causes
of action of every kind and nature whatsoever that xxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyy,
assert, may assert, and/or could assert against zzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz and zzzzzzzzzzz
relating to the Claims;

1.5 WHEREAS, in consideration of the provisions, recitals, agreements, promises,
covenants, representations, and warranties made by xxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyy,
as applicable and as described herein, and for the purpose of inducing each of the Parties to enter
into this Release and to be legally bound hereby, xxxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyy agree,
promise, covenant, and warrant as follows:

This 'subject party of the first part, and subject party of the second part do hereby, and herein...' goes on for six pages.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me what the guy in the right seat is called. Logic and common sense(in short supply) says he was a meat sack and had no business being on the controls(just - like - me). Did that contribute? Does it rise to negligence? Does it void any policy in effect? Questions which will have the lawyers squabbling for decades, and the FAA wording, even in the prelim makes a difference.
 
I don't discount the accuracy or validity of the posts or discussions around the legality or liability associated with who was or should've been doing what. I'm saddened that a family and a friend doesn't exist anymore because of an accident. I get the some people do, but I don't care a bit as to who ends up where with respect to the courts.

But I do kinda wonder how an ATP more or less flew a Citation into the ground when he seemingly had two working engines, a runway in front of him, and visibility to same. All the things that led up to that point were a train wreck, yep. But if a Citation - from what I've read here from some folks that have flown them - can spool up pretty quickly, and if the ceilings were around 1000', how did this happen? Was it because he didn't have a working airspeed indicator or altimeter on his side, and he either couldn't see them or couldn't fly without them? Or did he have a fully functional set of instruments and flew it in? Maybe obvious so some, and I admit being slow from time to time, but I don't get it.
 
Having recently dealt with an insurer on a rather modest claim, the diff between 'crew' and 'passenger' may be the difference between zero compensation and possibly millions to the insured, and against the insurance, or the policy payer.

Below is a small, marginal taste of what an insurance settlement looks like. This is two paras out of six pages, and this is for a claim under $250k.

1.4 WHEREAS, the Parties to this Release now desire to settle and compromise any
and all bodily injury claims as asserted by xxxxxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy and against
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzz and qqqqqqqqqqqqq in connection with
the Incident, and release any and all bodily injury claims, causes of action, and/or potential causes
of action of every kind and nature whatsoever that xxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyy,
assert, may assert, and/or could assert against zzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz and zzzzzzzzzzz
relating to the Claims;

1.5 WHEREAS, in consideration of the provisions, recitals, agreements, promises,
covenants, representations, and warranties made by xxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyyyyyy,
as applicable and as described herein, and for the purpose of inducing each of the Parties to enter
into this Release and to be legally bound hereby, xxxxxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyyyy agree,
promise, covenant, and warrant as follows:

This 'subject party of the first part, and subject party of the second part do hereby, and herein...' goes on for six pages.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me what the guy in the right seat is called. Logic and common sense(in short supply) says he was a meat sack and had no business being on the controls(just - like - me). Did that contribute? Does it rise to negligence? Does it void any policy in effect? Questions which will have the lawyers squabbling for decades, and the FAA wording, even in the prelim makes a difference.
You keep kicking it, but it's not going to get up and run. You say it doesn't matter to you, but your multiple posts indicate otherwise.

The FAA didn't claim he was a crew member. That entity didn't produce the preliminary report. The NTSB made it quite clear in the preliminary he wasn't qualified to act as a legally required SIC. That they overlooked a mention as a crew member in a section of the prelim that is obviously part of the canned document template has no bearing on the facts, which is that the person had neither the certificate or rating to be a qualified crew member, nor will it change the outcome of the final determination of cause.
 
But I do kinda wonder how an ATP more or less flew a Citation into the ground when he seemingly had two working engines, a runway in front of him, and visibility to same. All the things that led up to that point were a train wreck, yep. But if a Citation - from what I've read here from some folks that have flown them - can spool up pretty quickly, and if the ceilings were around 1000', how did this happen? Was it because he didn't have a working airspeed indicator or altimeter on his side, and he either couldn't see them or couldn't fly without them? Or did he have a fully functional set of instruments and flew it in? Maybe obvious so some, and I admit being slow from time to time, but I don't get it.
The Garmin recorded IAS in the neighborhood of Vref speeds for max landing weight, roughly 100 kts. To fly at that speed safely you need the flaps fully extended and be wings level. At approach flaps (20°15°), IIRC, you need to add 10 kts more. For maneuvering, i.e., banking, add another 10 kts (Vref + 20). Anybody know what the flap setting was when it crashed? What about the lack of gear lights? Could the panel light switch have been turned on thus dimming the green lights and annunciator panel too much to see in daylight? Could that have caused the pilots to be head down rather than looking out the windshield? Other possibilities come to mind...
 
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Aside from the double negative; 'not un...' the body of the discussion doesn't say "pilot rated passenger". It says exactly "right seat passenger".

But, in the data block on page 7 it says there were two crew.

FAA definition: "Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time."
Nothing says that the NTSB needs to be bound by FAA definitions either...

But the kid did not have a multi-engine rating. He cannot legally be crew. Period, end of story.
 
Turning off the generator doesn't kill the flight instruments and altimeter on the left side because the battery and other generator will assume the load unless the 225a current limiter is also blown. Then, the #1 inverter for AC flight instruments would lose its DC input. When Biffle referred to "alternator", could he have meant reference to the AC inverter? :dunno: Switching to #2 might have been the fix.

I’m with you…possible inverter issue based on the limited information in the report.

On another note, that Red Herring nose baggage door coming off and taking out the right engine makes me take pause about watching any more of these YouTube commandos that jump to conclusions with no real information.
 
On another note, that Red Herring nose baggage door coming off and taking out the right engine makes me take pause about watching any more of these YouTube commandos that jump to conclusions with no real information.

These youtubers are a clown show. Why anyone gives any credence to these guys is beyond me.
 
I’m with you…possible inverter issue based on the limited information in the report.

On another note, that Red Herring nose baggage door coming off and taking out the right engine makes me take pause about watching any more of these YouTube commandos that jump to conclusions with no real information.
I think those beliefs were predicated on the assumption that the cockpit crew was competent.
 
I’m with you…possible inverter issue based on the limited information in the report.

On another note, that Red Herring nose baggage door coming off and taking out the right engine makes me take pause about watching any more of these YouTube commandos that jump to conclusions with no real information.

Then why feed any further speculation in this thread?

I thought only DG makes the final conclusion?
 
Don't hire vegetarians to cook your steak -- oh schlitz there I go allegorizing again; better check my word count lest the monosyllabics get confusion-angry again and accuse me of pseudo-intellectualism... if they could spell it. :biggrin:
Actually, one of my best friends does tremendous beef and pork dishes and she will eat none of it.
 
You have to have #1 running with the gen on or the LH 225 Current Limiter to get power to the LH Bus.
I've been thinking this truth over, yet at the same time seemingly remembering the starter generator can be motored with the START CBs pulled. So, I Googled a few terms and immediately got into a chat with ChatGPT's AI competition there. By the end of a rather wordy discussion, AI agreed. In other words, this Citation II could have started both engines with the left limiter blown:
 
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I've been thinking this truth over, yet at the same time seemingly remembering the starter generator can be motored with the START CBs pulled. So, I Googled a few terms and immediately got into a chat with ChatGPT's AI competition there. By the end of a rather wordy discussion, AI agreed. In other words, this Citation II could have started both engines with the left limiter blown:

I haven’t been following the current limiter part of this discussion closely, and my Citation knowledge was load-shed a couple of decades ago. If the current limiter was blown, what would be the cockpit indication that “something is wrong with this airplane and I shouldn’t fly it?”
 
I haven’t been following the current limiter part of this discussion closely, and my Citation knowledge was load-shed a couple of decades ago. If the current limiter was blown, what would be the cockpit indication that “something is wrong with this airplane and I shouldn’t fly it?”
Checkerboard pattern on the annunciator, as I mentioned earlier, with the battery switch on. EDIT: But what about the ambient lighting? If the sun is shining on the panel, like maybe the Payne Stewart situation — slow step-climbing with the pressurization turned off — then maybe nobody saw any lights at all. Panel light switch left on could dim the lights, too. I wonder if the last previous flight landed at night.
 
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Nothing says that the NTSB needs to be bound by FAA definitions either...

But the kid did not have a multi-engine rating. He cannot legally be crew. Period, end of story.
Yeah, i wrote "FAA" about a report filed by "NTSB", just a brain fart as common as I complain about the fedguv in general. Making a mistake while pointing out mistakes of others is - unforgivable. I will do better, or drink less.
 
Turning off the generator doesn't kill the flight instruments and altimeter on the left side because the battery and other generator will assume the load unless the 225a current limiter is also blown. Then, the #1 inverter for AC flight instruments would lose its DC input. When Biffle referred to "alternator", could he have meant reference to the AC inverter? :dunno: Switching to #2 might have been the fix.
Good insight. Hopefully the feds will figure it all out.
With armchair QB hindsight, I can’t help but think they would have faired better with the Biff in the right seat. Of course they weren’t expecting equipment malfunctions.
 
What about the lack of gear lights? Could the panel light switch have been turned on thus dimming the green lights and annunciator panel too much to see in daylight? Could that have caused the pilots to be head down rather than looking out the windshield?
I wonder if the last previous flight landed at night.
Hmm... So, I checked FlightAware and the last flight was all after midnight: https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N257BW/history/20251115/0230Z/KSRQ/KSVH

Another consideration if the flaps were only set at 20° (approach) is that the nose attitude being higher than normal could cause an illusion of being higher than actual.
 
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What about the lack of gear lights? Could the panel light switch have been turned on thus dimming the green lights and annunciator panel too much to see in daylight? Could that have caused the pilots to be head down rather than looking out the windshield? Other possibilities come to mind...
These guys were effectively scud running. If the Citation instrument lighting is at all similar to Cessna's other twins, the annunciator and gear lights would have been plenty bright to see in the overcast conditions. Also, I would expect there to have been an annunciator panel test performed if a checklist was being followed, let alone the standard gear indication check on first battery on, which should have caught any day/night lighting problem.
 
These guys were effectively scud running. If the Citation instrument lighting is at all similar to Cessna's other twins, the annunciator and gear lights would have been plenty bright to see in the overcast conditions. Also, I would expect there to have been an annunciator panel test performed if a checklist was being followed, let alone the standard gear indication check on first battery on, which should have caught any day/night lighting problem.
The panel light switch does dim the gear and annunciator lights, and I have at least seen sunlight mask the annunciator lights. The preliminary report does mention a discussion about not seeing landing gear indicator lights. Of course, there's that possible blown current limiter which if combined with a loss of the left generator would depower the landing gear control CB and would also kill the flap control and motor CBs too. As for the annunciator test, in my operation we did those in the hangar as part of the preflight. Our total average taxi time was about 12 minutes including after landing. This flight took 22 minutes just to get off the ground, so I'd assume they did everything the preflight checklists called for post engine start.
 
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Hmmm, I remember now that the panel light switch in this plane was finicky. A few times we had to jiggle the wires behind the panel. Not sure if still a factor. That was probably 3 yrs ago.
 
Hmmm, I remember now that the panel light switch in this plane was finicky. A few times we had to jiggle the wires behind the panel. Not sure if still a factor. That was probably 3 yrs ago.
And there you were, in the exact same plane. Proof is in the tail number:

 
Yea, I have a few hundred hours in it, both seats.

The reason I don’t fly these II’s pt 91 contract is because they are old, lots of quirks/gremlins, questionable crew members, and it just isn’t worth it.
Lucky you wiggled those wires, might have happened to you! :)
 
Hope this hasn't been asked before.
Where are the ignitor switches on this plane? Where are the avionics switches? What guards are on those switches?
 
Hope this hasn't been asked before.
Where are the ignitor switches on this plane? Where are the avionics switches? What guards are on those switches?

I posted panel pics a few pages back. Left side of PIC instruments. No guards.
 
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