Citabrias

poweroff360

Pre-Flight
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Midwest
Display Name

Display name:
Poweroff360
First post here.

I'm interested in buying a Citabria (I think). I've always been interested in conventional gear aircraft. The Citabria is attractive because of the limited aerobatic capability, but the useful load seems a little iffy.

Anyone that can give advice as to wood v. metal wing spars, expected life of the fabric covering, etc.?

Seems that asking prices are all over the place depending on the wings, fabric, and so on, but a lot of them are flying on 30+ year old engines, which is a little scary, even if they have less than 2000 hours

I fly just for fun, I don't need to travel far - maybe 200 nm XCs when the weather is good, otherwise just smashing bugs.

Thanks for any insight, Jim
 
Hey Jim -

The Citabria/Decathlon/Scout line of aircraft are great! I'm a big fan of them. One place to find a wealth of information on them is the CitabriaPilots Yahoo Group.

Wood vs metal is basically the same thing as Ford vs Chevy and high wing vs low wing. Bottom line though, if you do get an American Champion metal wing, you won't have the recurring AD and, in some instances, get a gross weight increase.

Fabric life also has a lot of variables. But the rule of thumb is if you hangar, you're looking at a recover in about 25 years. If you tie down outside, in about 12. In one scenario you pay more for storage, in the other you pay more for fabric, in the end it's a wash. My hangared Christen Eagle was 25 years old when we put new fabric on the wings, only a couple spots needed it. The fuselage and tail are still 1981 fabric today.

Get a good A&P to look at the engine, way too many variables to intelligently give you advice here.

For your mission, flying around with occasional aerobatics, I'd suggest the 7GCBC or the 7GCAA. Both 150/160hp with the GCBC having flaps. Great, fun airplanes.
 
Hey Jim -

The Citabria/Decathlon/Scout line of aircraft are great! I'm a big fan of them. One place to find a wealth of information on them is the CitabriaPilots Yahoo Group.

Wood vs metal is basically the same thing as Ford vs Chevy and high wing vs low wing. Bottom line though, if you do get an American Champion metal wing, you won't have the recurring AD and, in some instances, get a gross weight increase.

Fabric life also has a lot of variables. But the rule of thumb is if you hangar, you're looking at a recover in about 25 years. If you tie down outside, in about 12. In one scenario you pay more for storage, in the other you pay more for fabric, in the end it's a wash. My hangared Christen Eagle was 25 years old when we put new fabric on the wings, only a couple spots needed it. The fuselage and tail are still 1981 fabric today.

Get a good A&P to look at the engine, way too many variables to intelligently give you advice here.

For your mission, flying around with occasional aerobatics, I'd suggest the 7GCBC or the 7GCAA. Both 150/160hp with the GCBC having flaps. Great, fun airplanes.

Thanks for the info, John!

I'm trying to decode all the different models - it's like Harley nomenclature, gotta know the secret handshake...

Are the 7ECA's worth looking at? I think they have the Lyc. 0-235 ? Better to pass on those and go for the O-320s?

Ability to use or get an autogas STC would be useful for me, I think.
 
I learned on a 7KCAB, 150HP, and a hi lift wing. I think the 7ECA is a fine plane as well, with similar loading and performance, if maybe a bit less vertical penetration. The 8KCAB super Deke is the top of the line, and costs more, but doesn't give a lot more in acro utility.

Fabric has been covered, and the wing spar has been covered. I think I would not hold out for the few that have the metal spar. If you find one, it's gonna be costly, but the wood spar will give good service provided it's inspected and in good shape.

The spar replacement is a huge job, and will cost accordingly.
 
Thanks for the info, John!

I'm trying to decode all the different models - it's like Harley nomenclature, gotta know the secret handshake...

Are the 7ECA's worth looking at? I think they have the Lyc. 0-235 ? Better to pass on those and go for the O-320s?

Ability to use or get an autogas STC would be useful for me, I think.

Only aircraft line with more alphabet soup is the Wacos.

As far as the 7ECA, they are good planes, just a little less useful load. I'd run a few W&Bs and see if your expected weights will work. If so, 7ECAs can be a good deal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
The 7 series, up to the 7KCAB are all 1650 lb GW so you'll get better useful load with an ECA. Some ECA's have 100 hp O-200's others have 115 hp O-235's. The KCAB has limited inverted capability but it means you're carrying even more extra weight and if you're not particularly interested in hanging from the straps for more than a minute or two at a time you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it. The GCBC is more bush-plane-like with a longer wing and taller gear. The 8 series have 1800 lb GW but when you get to the Decathalon it has a symmetrical wing which is for better inverted performance and not so great for regular take off and landing performance.

In anything 150hp and over you have to deal with recurring wood spar inspections. With the ECA it's a one time thing so has already been done.

Edit: this is incorrect, it's basically anything over 90 hp that requires recurring inspections (which includes the ECA's)

So, depends on what you want to do. Citabrias are basically glorified Champs. I'm currently flying a 90 hp Champ and it's a lot of fun. Not aerobatic but, if you don't tell anyone you can get away with an aileron roll now and then :rolleyes:

Edit: on fabric - just about every existing Citabria out there has already been converted to polyfiber cover. Despite what everyone tells you it is good for 25 years out in the elements. It doesn't rot. In fact, the biggest problem with modern cover is that the underlying structure does not bet bared and inspected every few years like it used to.
 
Last edited:
I have an ACA 7GCBC that I have owned for almost 14 years. It is a great airplane. I bought the GCBC because of the gross weight. The ACA GCAA's got a gross increase after I bought mine, but I can't off the top of my head remember if it got to 1800 or not.

I can't say enough good about the airplane. I really don't fly it much anymore, because I get to fly a YMF-5C and don't have enough time. The Citabria is a great X-C machine if you like low and slow. Mine cruises 105KTAS most of the time. My non-pilot wife objected to my selling it when I suggested I wasn't flying it much, because it is her favorite. From middle TN I have gone to Ogden, UT, Kissimmee, FL, Cedar Key, FL, Savannah, GA, Dallas, TX and a few closer places.

Super easy to fly, great T/O and landing performance. It does great stuff in pitch, not so great in roll. So if you just want to have fun, loops, even a hammerhead it's terrific. Rolling is no fun and i just don't do it. The ACA website has a lot of info on their airplanes. If you buy new, I think you can get the GCBC IFR legal, but not the Super D (or I suspect the new "Xtreme" D).

As someone suggested, make sure you look at W&B. In some of the airplanes two 200 pounders will be able to carry enough fuel to sit in the airplane and make airplane noises - on the ground.
 
I learned on a 7KCAB, 150HP, and a hi lift wing. I think the 7ECA is a fine plane as well, with similar loading and performance, if maybe a bit less vertical penetration. The 8KCAB super Deke is the top of the line, and costs more, but doesn't give a lot more in acro utility.

Fabric has been covered, and the wing spar has been covered. I think I would not hold out for the few that have the metal spar. If you find one, it's gonna be costly, but the wood spar will give good service provided it's inspected and in good shape.

The spar replacement is a huge job, and will cost accordingly.

I heard the cost for factory wing replacement was something like $20k.

I just don't want to get into a box where I think I'm getting a bargain and end up buying new wings, fabric and an engine that I'll never live long enough to amortize...

Is it reasonable to think I can find a 150 HP Citabria (1970s) for 40K?
 
...My non-pilot wife objected to my selling it when I suggested I wasn't flying it much, because it is her favorite...

That is something else I might add - In my experience, for some reason non pilots seem to feel very comfy in the back seat of a Citabria. I don't know why that is but it's definitely something I've observed.
 
Only aircraft line with more alphabet soup is the Wacos.

As far as the 7ECA, they are good planes, just a little less useful load. I'd run a few W&Bs and see if your expected weights will work. If so, 7ECAs can be a good deal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'm far from knowing what I'm talking about, but it seems like the 7ECAs have a better useful load than the 7Gxx models - on paper anyway. I'd think that more horsepower would equal more flexibility, but maybe not.

Seems like the GW of the Citabrias is fixed - something like 1650 or 1700...

Any idea where to find POH's for mid-1970s Citabrias?
 
The 7 series, up to the 7KCAB are all 1650 lb GW so you'll get better useful load with an ECA. Some ECA's have 100 hp O-200's others have 115 hp O-235's. The KCAB has limited inverted capability but it means you're carrying even more extra weight and if you're not particularly interested in hanging from the straps for more than a minute or two at a time you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it. The GCBC is more bush-plane-like with a longer wing and taller gear. The 8 series have 1800 lb GW but when you get to the Decathalon it has a symmetrical wing which is for better inverted performance and not so great for regular take off and landing performance.

In anything 150hp and over you have to deal with recurring wood spar inspections. With the ECA it's a one time thing so has already been done.

So, depends on what you want to do. Citabrias are basically glorified Champs. I'm currently flying a 90 hp Champ and it's a lot of fun. Not aerobatic but, if you don't tell anyone you can get away with an aileron roll now and then :rolleyes:

Edit: on fabric - just about every existing Citabria out there has already been converted to polyfiber cover. Despite what everyone tells you it is good for 25 years out in the elements. It doesn't rot. In fact, the biggest problem with modern cover is that the underlying structure does not bet bared and inspected every few years like it used to.

Thank you very much!

This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for.

I like the idea of having a Citabria for the limited aerobatic capability. I'm not going to try to do snaps or Lomcovaks. If that were the goal, I'd have more money and buy an Edge.

My real wants are:

1. Conventional gear - just because that's what I want if I'm going to take the plunge and own something. Otherwise it makes more sense to just continue renting.

2. Short field ability - 1,000 ft strip with a 50 ft. obstacle at 95 F and 76 F dewpoint, say 4,000 ft DA (with less than awesome piloting skills.)

3. Range - 200 NM plus an hour reserve.

4. A stick is a bonus.
 
That is something else I might add - In my experience, for some reason non pilots seem to feel very comfy in the back seat of a Citabria. I don't know why that is but it's definitely something I've observed.

And I quote my mother "Its cute."
 
I like the idea of having a Citabria for the limited aerobatic capability. I'm not going to try to do snaps or Lomcovaks. If that were the goal, I'd have more money and buy an Edge....

First of all you're going to have to get checked out in a conventional geared aircraft. These days you even need to have an endorsement in your logbook. It's a pretty good bet that this is going to happen in a Citabria because there are just so many more of them in use and for rent compared to everything else. So, while doing that take some instruction in spins and basic aerobatics - see if you really like it.

Because honestly, it's not for everybody and you aren't a lesser pilot if you don't go in for it. But you need to find that out before you commit yourself to an airplane that might be compromising in other areas in order to provide that function. Because that's what they do. This is the reason the useful load of a Citabria is less. It has to carry the extra weight of thicker lift struts, inverted fuel/oil systems and such to accommodate the capabilities.

That being said however, the Citabria is going to be the most available in the used market and it's not hard to adapt to the notion that you don't fill the tanks when you take your 250 pound buddy for a ride. In fact, you'll find that when you put a 250 pound pal in the back seat you're gonna gain about 8 knots cruise speed! ;)
 
Have you flown one with spades?

I have flown a 7KCAB without spades and a Decathlon with them. Seemed like the roll rate was significantly better with the spades.

But realize that the 7KCAB (Citabria) and Decathlon have entirely different wings, and are different airplanes. Apples to oranges regarding spade comparison. The Decathlon rolls significantly faster than the Citabria, spades or no spades. Spades purely alleviate stick pressure. The only way spades would actually increase roll rate is if you're too weak to achieve full aileron deflection without the spades.


I like the idea of having a Citabria for the limited aerobatic capability.

Not trying to be discouraging, but what is your current aerobatic experience? I only ask because you mention you like the "idea" of some aerobatic capability. In reality, a relatively small percentage of Citabria pilots actually care about doing aerobatics in them. Many newbies like the idea of aerobatics, but don't care much for it after getting some training. Just make sure you truly want this capability in an airplane, considering the Citabria's extremely sluggish aerobatic performance. You have to be a little masochistic to want to do acro in a Citabria. :D If you haven't yet, you'll understand when you do. Acro or no acro, Citabrias are classic tailwheel airplanes and are about as easy and friendly a tailwheel airplane that you'll find. They have great visibility, decent room, and are good fun.
 
Last edited:
I'm far from knowing what I'm talking about, but it seems like the 7ECAs have a better useful load than the 7Gxx models - on paper anyway. I'd think that more horsepower would equal more flexibility, but maybe not.

Seems like the GW of the Citabrias is fixed - something like 1650 or 1700...
You may be right. It has been a while since I looked at a 7ECA and I think the one I looked at might have been a heavy one.
 
Jim, I have a 1977 7GCAA and dearly love it. The Citabria has been part of our family since 1999 and lives with us on our farm.

Ability to use or get an autogas STC would be useful for me, I think.
We have a fuel tank at our farm and use mogas...we save a lot of money by doing that.

I like the idea of having a Citabria for the limited aerobatic capability. I'm not going to try to do snaps or Lomcovaks. If that were the goal, I'd have more money and buy an Edge.

I've competed in my Citabria, but now most of the aerobatics I do is giving casual aerobatic rides to people.

For example:

https://vimeo.com/6174023

https://vimeo.com/3378756

I don't have spades, and do just fine without them. One time we borrowed a Citabria with spades while ours was being recovered. My husband ran into those spades twice and after going through a box of Band-Aids we decided not to add spades.

2. Short field ability - 1,000 ft strip with a 50 ft. obstacle at 95 F and 76 F dewpoint, say 4,000 ft DA (with less than awesome piloting skills.)

Then I would suggest getting a model with 150 or 160 HP.

Our wood spar looked great when we recovered the Citabria in 2006. We didn't feel the need to replace it with metal.

I've flown my Citabria all over the country and even as far north as Fort Nelson, British Columbia. Here is a video of photos from one of my grass strip tours. I spent a month flying around the country, living out of my airplane and staying with people along the way. Several people from the forum here are in these photos. :)

As far as weight and balance goes, I'm careful with the numbers, especially how much weight and where, when doing aerobatics in it. You can adjust the amount of fuel to make it happen if the people aren't too big. Some people are too heavy to go flying with me. Some people are too heavy to do aerobatics with me.

I have often flown to OSH with my camping gear and camped under the wing. :)

There are other videos on my Vimeo page of various kinds of flying in the Citabria.

And I quote my mother "Its cute."
:D My mom said the same thing.
 
In anything 150hp and over you have to deal with recurring wood spar inspections. With the ECA it's a one time thing so has already been done.

The 7ECA is a recurring spar AD as well.

--------

As for the aerobatic discussion, I just sold my 7ECA with spades. Its fine for anyone doing basic aerobatics, you just have to work harder. The 7KCAB would have been nice due to the inverted fuel/oil. People tend to think that because the Citabrias are more demanding aerobatic wise that they are "bad" at it... and you might as well not even bother trying it. But all it really means is you have work harder at doing it well. Its not an Extra.

--------

In terms of price this is what i would say ive seen over the last couple years regarding 70's Citabria:

Sub 30k - It probably has original fabric and interior with a higher time engine. Its probably going to need work to either of those or both.

30k-40k - Towards the mid-30's it will be possible to find a decent one in this area. Maybe original (but airworthy) fabric with a lower time engine. Or newer fabric with a higher time engine. Higher 30's should bring nice / recent interior/exterior with an engine thats not too bad. Should be able to get a pretty decent one in this area.

40k+ You should be looking at newer fabric, low time engine, nice interior, and possibly new spars.

In terms of damage history, what you are going to find (generally) is airplane that either has none, and has never been opened up / old fabric etc. Or an airplane that has some damage history...due to which got new fabric/spars/prop/engine overhaul etc.

This is all in my humble opinion. I'm sure many would think otherwise. But this is just what comes off the top of my head considering the last couple years of ownership and just selling my 7ECA.
 
Last edited:
SNIP ... considering the Citabria's extremely sluggish aerobatic performance. ...SNIP

It ain't that bad, honest, in the things that depend on pitch. Loops are fun, it does a fun hammerhead. Even a Split S isn't bad, I usually end with one to lose altitude. Just no fun to roll.

Ernie
 
Some additional thoughts:

I don't think the 160HP is auto fuel eligible; I believe all the ACA birds have metal spars. 1,000 feet, even with trees at both ends, would be a piece of cake for a 7GCBC. Visibility from the front is better than my old M20K. It is a great bird to instruct in.
 
It ain't that bad, honest, in the things that depend on pitch. Loops are fun, it does a fun hammerhead. Even a Split S isn't bad, I usually end with one to lose altitude. Just no fun to roll.

I usually end with a Spit S, too. :)

Spins are fun, as well.

I don't mind aileron rolls and barrel rolls. :) Slow rolls are harder and my engine sputters, but it always picks up the beat afterwards. :D
 
The 7 series, up to the 7KCAB are all 1650 lb GW so you'll get better useful load with an ECA.
True on the Bellanca models, but not on the ACA models. If you have an ACA version, or a Bellanca version with updated ACA wings, the gross goes up to 1750. That, in my opinion, is a HUGE 100 pounds in this airplane, and the main reason I bought a new one back in 2001 instead of a good used Bellanca version. That said, the ECA is typically lighter and gives more useful, but the engine is a bit weak for aerobatics.

If you go the ACA route, pay a lot of attention to the factory paint. The early years of ACA models -- say from 1993 to the mid to late 2000s, the paint was prone to cracking and peeling.
 
People tend to think that because the Citabrias are more demanding aerobatic wise that they are "bad" at it... and you might as well not even bother trying it. But all it really means is you have work harder at doing it well. Its not an Extra.

IMO, they are not more "demanding", they are just lower on the performance spectrum. When it's said you must "work harder", that's from a physical effort standpoint due to control pressures, and not necessarily from a skill standpoint. Perfectly precise aerobatic figures are equally difficult (from a skill/technique) standpoint in any airplane. To the uninitiated, the higher performance airplanes just might make you appear better than you actually are. But if you lack skill, the expert observer will recognize the same level of inability regardless of what you're flying. The folks pulling 9Gs during sequences in Extras are working pretty hard too...they just have lighter stick pressures. :)

It ain't that bad, honest...

Compared to what? :D Just messin'. I like Citabrias.
 
I had 400 hours in an 8KCAB (Super D) before moving to an Extra. The Citabrias and Decathlons are great planes- if you want speed, inverted fuel and oil, and a semi symmetrical wing, the Super D is hard to beat. They re also comfortable for a XC, can land on grass, and an easy taildragger to learn. Most of the stuff on aluminium versus wood spars is hype- there are a lot of wood spars out there in great condition, although they do need to be inspected.
 
Most of the stuff on aluminium versus wood spars is hype- there are a lot of wood spars out there in great condition, although they do need to be inspected.
Absolutely. I could not agree more. The gross weight increase is the only practical difference, with the possible exception that you may have to hunt a bit to find a qualified wood spar inspector in some areas.
 
True on the Bellanca models, but not on the ACA models. If you have an ACA version, or a Bellanca version with updated ACA wings, the gross goes up to 1750. That, in my opinion, is a HUGE 100 pounds in this airplane, and the main reason I bought a new one back in 2001 instead of a good used Bellanca version. That said, the ECA is typically lighter and gives more useful, but the engine is a bit weak for aerobatics.

If you go the ACA route, pay a lot of attention to the factory paint. The early years of ACA models -- say from 1993 to the mid to late 2000s, the paint was prone to cracking and peeling.

We once bought a '79 Bellanca 7GCBC that had been upgraded to the metal-spar wings and that horrible Blue River fabric system. The airplane still had the original factory W&B that indicated an empty of 1201 pounds. I did an actual and found it at 1320 or so. The metal spars and fabric couldn't account for the huge difference in weight, and someone at the factory told me that Bellanca had had a habit of fudging the weights to make the airplane look more useable.

So don't trust the Bellanca factory W&B, and never trust that Blue River system, either. I had to recover the airplane. Terrible stuff, peeling and cracking and falling off. The ACA finish cracking problem you note is the Superflite urethane, and it will do that. Most urethanes tend to harden with age and lose their flexibility. I think Poly-Fiber's urethane is somewhat better.

Dan
 
We once bought a '79 Bellanca 7GCBC that had been upgraded to the metal-spar wings and that horrible Blue River fabric system. The airplane still had the original factory W&B that indicated an empty of 1201 pounds. I did an actual and found it at 1320 or so. The metal spars and fabric couldn't account for the huge difference in weight, and someone at the factory told me that Bellanca had had a habit of fudging the weights to make the airplane look more useable.

So don't trust the Bellanca factory W&B, and never trust that Blue River system, either. I had to recover the airplane. Terrible stuff, peeling and cracking and falling off. The ACA finish cracking problem you note is the Superflite urethane, and it will do that. Most urethanes tend to harden with age and lose their flexibility. I think Poly-Fiber's urethane is somewhat better.

Dan
If you had the Blue River fabric, then likely you had the aftermarket metal spars, which do not carry the GW increase. The ACA spar replacement involves new wings that are already covered with ACA's fabric and paint-du-jour.
 
I am also in the market for a Citabria. What are your thoughts on the 115hp v. the 150hp? My gut tells me to go for the power but I have a potential opportunity to partner on a 115hp clean plane at my home airport.
 
For one thing it would depend on where you're at. An ECA isn't going to do real well at high density altitudes. A KCAB on a hot day in Denver is going to be roughly equivalent to an ECA in Orlando.
 
I used to have a 69' 7ECA with the O-235-C1 (108HP), and I'm a big fan. Most of my students preferred it to the J-3 simply for comfort and ease of transition. It's not much of trainer if you're planning on using it as a stepping stone to bigger taildraggers,(Stearman, T6, etc) but it does do a pretty good job of prepping you for a Pitts or Extra if flown from the back seat, and I transitioned several guys into their RVs and Thorps with it.

Great visibility, almost C-172 speeds on XC, 2,000hr TBO on the C1. We used to load it to the gills with 2 big adults, luggage and full fuel and it still flew about the same (although undoubtedly over gross). It was also a great spin trainer. If I could afford a 4th plane, it would be another 7ECA, or maybe a 7GCBC so I could tow with it.

Mike-
 
...We used to load it to the gills with 2 big adults, luggage and full fuel and it still flew about the same...

I've got a 7EC Champ with a 90 hp Continental and it cruises about 80-85 mph when I'm alone. But if I put a 250 lb dude in the back seat it'll do 94! :goofy:
 
If you had the Blue River fabric, then likely you had the aftermarket metal spars, which do not carry the GW increase. The ACA spar replacement involves new wings that are already covered with ACA's fabric and paint-du-jour.

Nope. Factory new wings. Someone had a "better" idea.it seems.
 
I have noticed in my Citabria that when at full power and climbing the left strut has a slight vibration to it. It is barely noticeable and I am not too concerned with it currently but I have thought over time this could cause a crack in my wood spar. Has anyone else experienced this? Or have any suggestions as to what it might be that is causing it?

Also are there any preventative maintenance or things that can be done to ensure that the spar does not get cracks in it?

Thanks
 
:wink2:
Thanks for the info, John!

I'm trying to decode all the different models - it's like Harley nomenclature, gotta know the secret handshake...

Are the 7ECA's worth looking at? I think they have the Lyc. 0-235 ? Better to pass on those and go for the O-320s?

Ability to use or get an autogas STC would be useful for me, I think.

Did alot of instruction in 7ECAs, GREAT aircraft.

I would only go with the metal spars and beefed up struts, factory or updated.


The covering should be fine as long as there are no cracks, a good prebuy can figure your covering health out, newer the fabric job the better!

The 150hp later models (or conversions) would be a good idea.

As for the age, doesnt really matter, it all a matter of maintenance, if the place was maintained well and the logs and prebuy confirm this, you are good to go.

One difference is in the landing gear, the OLD ones will have oleos and the newer ones will have spring gear, some like the older oleos better as they dont bounce as much, honestly not that much of a difference.


Most of the ones I flew were older 7ECAs, in my experience the pilot will come up short on skill before the plane comes up short on ability.

Buy a nice one for 30k or so and spend the rest you money on AVGAS and learning how to REALLY fly her!

They are great planes and easy to fly and maintain.

quick search, there plenty of em on the market too. Not sure if this one has the metal spars, but that and somewhat recent covering would be important IMO

If this dude came down on his price a bit this would be a nice one
1975 BELLANCA CITABRIA 7GCBC • $49,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE Annie's Beloved Citabria N8619V is now for sale. A truly well maintained 1975 Citabria in great condition. AFTT 2715, 0-320-A2D 1275 Since Gold Star zero-time remanufacture to factory new tolerances! New Metal Spar wings and windshild installed in 2003. Less then 100 hours on new brakes and brake disks. Nav/ Strobe lights, MX300 Nav/Com, KT 76A Transponder, always hangared. This very nice Citabria is only for sale because it's owner of over 25 years is retiring from flying. • Contact Hep Porter, Friend of Owner - located Gardnerville, NV USA • Telephone: 775-450-7100 • Posted May 29, 2013 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchlistReport This AdView Larger PicturesFinance New Lower Rates!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]974 CITABRIA 7KCAB • $48,000 • FOR SALE A fantastic all around fun airplane. Plane flown around the country in 2007, to ME last year, to MS in 2011, and is ready to do again. 308 SMOH (ECI cyl, etc). 812 hrs since teardown to frame, wood rplcd, and recover (pics of work available, hangared since). 3778 TTAF. Milman metal spars, NO spar AD. Interior 6/10 (headliner edges not tucked, orig panel). Exterior 8/10. In past few yrs rplcd windshield, r wndws, exhaust, batt, more. Oil analysis history clear. KX125, KT76A, CHT INOP. Heal brks. Spades. All AD's & inspctns complied, no significant recurring AD's. Annual 03/13. Email prefered. • Contact BM Mills, Owner - located Annapolis Junction, MD USA • Telephone: 4434797662 . • Posted May 17, 2013 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchlistReport This AdView Larger PicturesFinance New Lower Rates! [/FONT]

Or a little TLC

1976 CITABRIA 7ECA • $23,000 • ASKING PRICE SLASHED 6500tt 1900smoh 10stoh new factory wings (metal spars) New windshield, original fuselage fabric. • Contact Jason R. Newburg - AEROBATIC AIRCRAFT TEXAS, Broker - located Dallas, TX USA • Telephone: 386-451-6094 • Fax: 407-641-9053 • Posted May 24, 2013 • Show all Ads posted by this AdvertiserRecommend This Ad to a FriendEmail AdvertiserSave to WatchlistReport This AdView Larger PicturesFinance New Lower Rates!
1x1.gif



1x1.gif


 
Last edited:
in my experience the pilot will come up short on skill before the plane comes up short on ability.

That's true of most airplanes, since most pilots only operate within a very narrow range of the performance envelope. But for the serious budding aerobatic pilot, they will outgrow a 7ECA real fast. :)
 
That's true of most airplanes, since most pilots only operate within a very narrow range of the performance envelope. But for the serious budding aerobatic pilot, they will outgrow a 7ECA real fast. :)

Meh BS,

Most of the guys that go buy SUs and Extras tend to have more money then skill, however they think that because they are rocking a extra or laser....

Honestly unless you can ride that 7ECA to the edge of it's envelope with surgical precision you have not mastered it. Just using the power of a extra to bail yourself out is a mask for lack of energy management, just look at hoover in that aero commander. :dunno:

The only way someone should be in a extra is if sponsors paid for it, if you aint at that level, you just bought it
 
Honestly unless you can ride that 7ECA to the edge of it's envelope with surgical precision you have not mastered it.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. There's a big difference between mastering a Citabria and mastering aerobatics. I mentioned the budding serious aerobatic pilot. Lots of people fly occasional aerobatics. 99% of them only do lazy flopped loops and rolls. When I say "serious", I mean someone who makes the effort to study, obtain advanced dual, practice hard, and obtain ground critiquing and coaching. Those types are rare, but they are out there. I know many of them, because my perspective is one that comes from the world of competition aerobatics.

I don't know how extensive your aerobatic experience is, but aerobatics involves a vast array of fundamental maneuvers and skills. A 7ECA Citabria will only allow you to scratch the surface, not that a little aerobatic Citabria time would be a bad thing.

So fundamental aerobatic skills -

* Straight and level rolls. The only good ones I've seen a Citabria do were in the 150hp 7KCAB, which has inverted systems. In the 7ECA, unless you want to dump all your oil out during a practice session, you're not going to be able to practice this skill very well. And even so, once the engine quits around the first knife edge point, the airplane really isn't going to fly it right, even if you have the technique. Not a good airplane to learn how to do straight and level rolls in. This is an acro 101 basic skill.

* Snap rolls - The Citabria will do them. But unless you want to do fuel tank repairs, you're not going to want to do repeated snaps. This would make it hard to learn snaps in.

* Vertical rolls - The Citabria will maybe do a quarter roll from Vne, but it won't have enough rotation capability to understand the finer points of rolling the airplane perfectly vertically, and keeping the wingtip moving across the horizon without pitch changes, or moving up and down.

* Inverted spins - most prefer to do these in an airplane with an engine that will stay running.

* Inverted flight, inverted turns, and inverted adverse yaw issues - see above.

* I wouldn't even consider flying basic gyroscopic figures in a Citabria.

So in a 7ECA Citabria, you could spend years perfecting your Bob Hoover deadstick routine, but at the end of it, you'd still have only scratched the surface with respect to the available aerobatic skills that you could have been working on in other more capable airplanes. If you're into competition, you'll move past the 7ECA real fast. It all boils down to your flying style and to what extent you want to develop your skills. Not everone is your average occasional weekend aerobatic "flopper".

Just using the power of a extra to bail yourself out is a mask for lack of energy management, just look at hoover in that aero commander. :dunno:

I doubt you've spent any significant time in high performance aerobatic airplanes. Horsepower is not used as a "bail-out". High performance can get you into trouble twice as fast. There are lots of things a high power airplane will teach you to manage (and you must learn to manage) that a low power/performance plane will not. Things such as strong gyroscopic yaw, which must be controlled. Strong slipstream effect. Propellor torque. Asymmetric thrust. Many seem to think that high performance airplanes will do it for you, and cover up lack of skill. I would suggest anyone who thinks this come to an aerobatic contest. You might just see a Decathlon beat an Extra in the lower categories.

Most of the guys that go buy SUs and Extras tend to have more money then skill, however they think that because they are rocking a extra or laser....

Not the pilots I know who fly Extras and Sukhois. But it is true that the majority of Extra pilots are NOT that serious about aerobatics, only want a hot machine, and don't have serious skills. This is nothing new. Same with sports cars and "crotch rocket" motorcycles. But try flying in the IAC Advanced or Unlimited categories in a Citabria. Even my Pitts is not competitive in Unlimited these days. Extras exist for good reason.

The only way someone should be in a extra is if sponsors paid for it, if you aint at that level, you just bought it

I don't think you have much understanding of the airshow world. Having a sponsor doesn't necessarily mean you have top level skill. Anyone can fly airshows if they want. You just need the desire to work through process. And I can only think of maybe ONE airshow pilot in the country who's airplane I'd say is actually paid for by his sponsor (Sean Tucker). Most do it as a hobby because they are in a financial position to support their own flying...maybe with a small bit of help from sponsors. They may get paid at airshows, but there are only about 2 in the country who actually make it their sole "career". There's a big difference between getting paid and making money when you consider the costs. I don't think you understand how little money is actually out there in the airshow world.

You don't even need to be that good to get an ICAS waiver and fly shows. You simply need to be able to perform some basic figures safely. Safe aerobatics it not hard. Precision and skilled aerobatics is. Yes, there is some world-level talent on the airshow circuit. There is also some marginal talent on the airshow circuit. Most of the best aerobatic pilots in the country do not have sponsors, and are unknown names. Many of these guys (and ladies) I see several times a year at IAC aerobatic contests. Many of them have Extras and MXs...and the skills to use them.
 
Last edited:
...If you're into competition, you'll move past the 7ECA real fast...

That's probably true but competition aerobatics is not something that a very large number of pilots are interested in. To be honest, as a spectator, the Extras and Sukois doing extreme stuff, that no doubt requires skill, just don't thrill or interest me as much as seeing a Stearman do a roll after takeoff or a Cub doing low level loops or a Citabria doing an inverted ribbon cut.

Whereas I might be ordering a hotdog during Sean Tucker's routine I'd never have missed a second of Bob Hoover's.
 
Back
Top