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Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by Jamie Kirk, Nov 7, 2019.
Yeah, could have been a last ditch attempt, or even a result of hitting the house.
It's always more complicated. But if you give yourself a rule, such as no more than 30° bank angle / 10° pitch angle in flight, unless a genuine emergency [avoiding an F-16, etc.], you'll be ahead of the game.
I think the problem with absolute bank limits is a pilot becomes “bank shy”. With limits set and ingrained, when the need comes for a faster rate of turn, there’s a powerful tendency to “cheat” with rudder to avoid “too much” bank.
Personally, I’m comfortable with up to 45° banks in the pattern - it feels quite natural and I’ve have never had issues with unintentional stalls. An accelerated stall is caused by increasing the load factor - it’s not hard to bank 45° while descending with little or any effect on stall speed.
Your post didn't imply that at all, everyone has their moments, but a CFI who loses his crap on a student in the air for any reason other than a student purposely screwing up should seriously consider another vocation.
If the student doesn't understand after several tries it's the instructor who is at fault. Blowing a gasket on the student would be unexcusable
That’s what I thought it meant but why would you do this? Especially low and slow in the pattern.
Yeah that was my point in that the "general public" aka "witnesses" have seen a helicopter with a chute deployed. I have no doubt that chutes on helicopters have been tried, I just doubt enough people have seen the tests that the phenomenon is common enough to rate the observation "it looks like a helicopter with a parachute."
It's more than that. The airplane has to be slow enough, for one thing, close to the stall, and since the extra rudder causes more banking, the pilot applies opposite aileron to stop the bank. That down-aileron on the inside wing causes the stall to progress from the wing root outward very quickly and the airplane rolls into the spin.
A higher airspeed below some specific altitude is a bandaid solution that often leads to approaches and landings that are far too fast and result in their own sorts of accidents. Airspeed control and coordination are the keys here, not adding a bunch of knots "for safety."
In Canada we have to demonstrate stalls like this to PPL students, and Commercial students have to demonstrate a spin entry and recovery, from any of several scenarios, on the checkride. When I was doing taildragger checkouts in the Citabrias, we'd go up high and do descending skidding-turn stalls, especially if I saw that the student had the habit of using too much rudder in the base-to-final turn. When he saw what could happen, he never did that again. Ever.
Honestly for some it’s just a natural instinct to kick that rudder to get the nose to come around. My focus is always on proper airspeed and just staying coordinated.
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Are there training exercises, at a higher altitude, a pilot can use to help get rid of that tendency?
First understand the aerodynamics of stalls and spins. Second go fly and do three stalls all of them power off. First, keep the ball in the center and stall straight ahead. All part 23 aircraft will stall without a significant roll. Second, do a turning and slipping stall. That is where the aileron and the rudder are opposite. You'll notice that the high wing will stall first. You'll start to roll towards that wing and after awhile you will pass level. Third, do a turning skidding stall. That is where the aileron and rudder are the same. The low wing will stall first and you'll roll in that direction. This is why skidding the turn to final is so often fatal, you are stalling with the wing that is already down rolling beneath you. If you have untrained feet get some altitude and power off hold the yoke/stick back and keep it there. You'll get into a deep stall wings level, but eventually a wing will start to drop, bring it back up with opposite rudder. Do that for awhile, climb up and do it again. I recommend taking an instructor and NOT using an airplane that prohibits spins (though i've done this many times in Grummans). Not that you should spin but better safe than sorry. I've done these exercises 100s of times with students and never spun out of them.
I am Canadian, and was taught slow flight, stalls, and spins within the first 4 hours of instruction for my private. She told me that I was ready to solo at 5 hours because I understood what was happening and how to recover, so I spent from hour 5.1 to 6.8 alone in the pattern doing touch and goes, asked for runway changes, intentionally missed approaches, full stops, and then taking off again. Funny thing was my instructor was in another 172 with a student and she had the student following me and doing whatever I was doing. The student and I talked after we had landed, and he said that was the day he truly grasped how to land well, he had 14 hours, had not yet gone solo, and by my mixing it up he had to think about more than just a regular landing, so he stopped over thinking just when he was going to flare etc. By my last few touch and goes that day there were four of us in 172s, a warrior, and a 182 all practicing, and they were just following me around whatever I was asking the tower for. When something else was coming in tower would ask us six to fly a larger pattern to get them on the ground or taking off from the main runway, and we would resume our fun. When I was ready to taxi in, before switching to ground she thanked me from the tower for the entertainment and invited me to come up to the tower for a coffee....which i gladly took her up on. It is fun to say take off on 06, do a 180 and land on 24, I was blessed to have an instructor that was not trying to just run a pilot mill type of place, and actually cared about us students.
keep the damn ball centered
It makes slipping very difficult
In this case, he was apparently following a Bonanza, which does very similar speeds in the pattern. In fact, I fly my Bonanza at 85 knots, full flaps, until about a 1/2 mile final or so. SR22 pilots I know seem to follow a similar descent speed, though I find the pitch attitude is more nose down at that speed in the Cirrus than the Bonanza. At 85 knots, you're well within that 1.4 or so that the instructor on Flight Chops mentioned for minimum pattern maneuvering speed. Word is that he wasn't talking on CTAF, which just bothers me.
Yeah, a Bonanza shouldn't be an issue to follow unless he cut it too close or wasn't managing speed properly. It's very easy to be too fast in the pattern in a Cirrus, and you can certainly fly the pattern at 85 knots, I make sure at least half flaps are in and I limit my turns to 30 degrees in the pattern.
It's difficult to simulate these things at altitude because you don't have the ground reference. It's the ground reference that screws you up because you are intentionally trying to fly this distinct pattern across the ground and because the air is in motion the nose of your airplane is not going to be pointed in the direction you want to go. Distraction can cause you to get uncoordinated, this is what causes the infamous "moose stall" and it happens to seasoned pilots, not just greenhorns.
I wonder if the pilot was unfamiliar with Cable airport...not the easiest place to land for the uninitiated. If you approach from the north, you're up against the San Gabriels that can generate significant turbulence. From this direction, with the terrain rising to the north, you're quite often descending to TPA on crosswind. To me, it seems like the terrain rises slightly to the east as well, making it more difficult to judge your approach on final to Runway 24. It's in a fisheye cutout of Ontario's Class C, so you need to be wary of not busting airspace...especially in a faster plane flying a more generous pattern. And the whole airport is tilted downward north-south, which plays with the sight picture.
It can all add to the workload and lead to distraction, with terrible consequences.
Using the Flight Chops instructor model, the maneuvering speed at full flaps should have been around 83 knots. I don't see why a competent pilot couldn't maintain that.
Yet another reason to be talking on the radio. If you're on with SoCal there, you can get vectored into a good position and get through the Class C. Not to mention communicating with the similar pattern speed airplane in front of you.
Also, when it comes to safety of flight, I don't see why people care about airspace clips like that. There is plenty of space there to maneuver, and ATC is unlikely to notice, and even less likely to care about a clip like that from someone they know is maneuvering to land at that airport.
If you need more bank in the pattern, perhaps you need a larger pattern.
He came south of KCCB, just East of KPOC under the KONT shelf so he was 1,000-1,300 AGL most of his flight in this area trying to make a left downwind.
Flying into KCCB is deceiving as you said, terrain slopes up and your visual references are all off if unfamiliar.
Maybe, but it’s not uncommon to misjudge the wind and end up in a position where you need to tighten a turn more than you anticipated. With proper coordination that should be a non-issue. In addition, many pilots like tight enough patterns to keep the runway within gliding distance at all times.
You are good if you keep your bank angles less than 30 degrees, or even 45 degrees. At 60 degrees you have no margin for error, or gusts.
Wow. That would be easy to be to turn a bit harder with a combo of a pull back to tighten the turn and lose some speed and stall it quick.
The stall horn was broken for years in my airplane, and one day I got slow. I knew right away that something was not right: the plane was wallowing side to side so much, losing stability. Now I'm curious if Cirrus tells its pilot that things are about to go bad, or is it like everything is fine and then snap, you're dead.
I will start by saying I've never flown one, but every review I have read, which is several because I actually considered buying one, says it is an extremely docile airplane when it stalls.
Is blowing through runway centerline that bad?
I’ve gotten stuck behind a tri pacer in the pattern and had to get real slow. Not great technique but I had a long enough final to get stabilized.
There's just no way you should be at 60 degrees at anytime, even when you aren't that slow. If you need to be at 60 degrees to make a turn in a pattern, it is not a turn you need to make.
First thing I was thinking as well.
Usually not, except when parallel runways are in use.
Here's the installation on Kumertau-Kamov Rotorfly:
No, it is not a big deal to blow past the center line. It should be a part of basic training how to deal with it before you ever get your private also.
If slow traffic is in front of you, fly an extended downwind, or makes some S turns, again those types of situations should all be basic training. If you get to 45 hours and your instructor hasn't been over all of that, they are crappy at their job to say the least. Just like a missed approach should be a nothing burger. I actually ask my passengers to toss scenarios at me that make me deal with them. Yesterday set up on short final, going pretty slow because its a short airstrip to get into, my girlfriend yelled at me " Imaginary moose on the runway". Firewalled it, got rid of the gear, once i had had 80 knots indicated I went to 10 degrees of flaps, saw a nice rate of climb and 85 knots so got rid of the rest of the flaps and zoomed right over some store roofs nice and low. Once i had about 150' agl i remembered to radio traffic and tell them I just did a missed approach, because the last they heard was me calling full stop. Just another reason I love her, she doesn't let me become complacent. She could see i was slower than usual since its short and it was covered in snow so braking would be a joke, and she waited for me to get nice and low, so i was maybe 4 seconds to touch down. Practice practice practice, or become dangerous. That runway is a lot more than many pilots can handle in the summer, when not iced over, and in less plane than a Bonanza. Several have crashed there, at least the restaurants or small strip mall stop them
I'm confused. Are you implying this helicopter has a parachute on it? Where is it? It's not on the top of the rotor head so anywhere else, what keeps it from being shredded on deployment?
The only one I'm aware of was the zephir and I'm not sure what happened with that project.
Yes, in my opinion you get plenty of warning if you are paying attention. You get a buffet and the controls become less effective, or crisp is a better description. If you are coordinated the break is a non event. I did have one stall where a wing dropped. It was a gusty day. Opposite rudder fixed it in an instant, plus with the wing design the ailerons are effective in the stall.
I'm not an instructor and I've never experienced a problem in the pattern, but my take is these spin stall scenarios happen quickly most of the time from poor technique. As I said before in a 22 it is very easy to be too fast in the pattern. The older models have a 119 knot first flap limitation, so if you are over that( very easy) the only way to slow is to chop power and pull up the nose enough to stop the descent and slow. What I think happens if you are behind the airplane or have developed bad habits is the plane begins to slow just before it's time to turn base. You are looking out side, focusing on the turn, not descending, forgetting to get the flaps in or to get some power back in. You get through the downwind/base turn, but are still faster than you should be so the base/final turn comes up quickly. You are looking out side again and fail to notice the airspeed dropping rapidly now. You start the turn, nose still level, speed drops through stall speed, you are cheating the nose around with rudder and wham, you are looking at the ground.
Cirrus increased the initial flap speed to 150 knots in later models, which makes it easy to slow down if you need to. The Garmin avionics also give you an "airspeed" aural warning well before stall speed, so you really have work at it to stall spin the later models.
The bottom line is, as with any airplane, you can't get sloppy in the pattern.
Moose v Auto. I'd hate to see Moose v Luscombe.
"Oh, I see Scraps is a boy moose"
~ Peter Benchley
It's not just that the low wing stalls first. As illustrated earlier, in a skidding turn the outside wing tends to lift so the pilot will have a tendency to cross control in order to prevent that from happening. With the down aileron on the slower inside wing, it will have a tendency to stall at an even lower AOA than normal. This is even if you have acceptable margin in terms of speed and AOA. Your recommendation about practicing this in and EMT lesson or with an instructor is spot on.
Regardless, if you feel that you've overshot the runway enough to make uncoordinated maneuvers to align with it, just go around and try again.
I'm not implying anything. I'm telling you straight that the ballistic parachute system is installed and its container is visible in the photo. I'm not implying that it works or its testing was successful either. You only asked about the existence of this setup