Cirrus "panic button"; good or bad?

[TangoWhiskey]

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2008/080520cirrus.html

Cirrus Design is now offering its top-of-the-line SR22 and turbo models with a panic button. The customized $48,000 Garmin Perspective integrated cockpit option includes a bright blue emergency switch called LVL to return the airplane to straight-and-level flight. The LVL button can recover the aircraft from an attitude of 75 degrees of roll and 50 degrees of pitch, even if they occur simultaneously.

Will this make things worse, or better? Do you think it, combined with the parachute, will make people (pilots with more money than sense) try things they ought not?

At $48K, that's an EXPENSIVE button! How about just teaching them how to use the autopilot they already have?

 

[deafsound]

I think it's a great idea personally. The chute has already saved quite a few lives, and this button will probably do the same.
However, I would like to know what would happen if the plane was in a 75 degree bank and 50 degrees nose down at Vne and then the button gets pushed....do the wings rip right off?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I think it's long overdue to be perfectly honest with you -- it's a fantastic idea. I would rather someone try to establish straight and level through the autopilot than to pop the chute. Personally, I would never use the chute, but that's the topic for another discussion.

Also, the way I read it, the $48k price tag is for the G1000 package ("Cirrus Perspective"), not for the single button.

 

[tonycondon]

its been a pretty popular option in RC aircraft for a while. self leveling, you just have to let go of the controls. i wouldnt not fly an airplane that had it, thats for sure.

 

[jesse]

Personally, I would never use the chute, but that's the topic for another discussion.

Never?

 

[SkyHog]

Never?

Personally, I agree, Jesse, I would never press it either. Once you press it, you lose all control of the aircraft, and may wind up turing an off-field landing into a nose down sprial into a cliff of a mountain, or a lake. I'd rather control my landing spot.

Of course, if the wing is having chunks of wing fall off...then maybe.

 

[skyflyer8]

Once you press it, you lose all control of the aircraft, and may wind up turing an off-field landing into a nose down sprial into a cliff of a mountain, or a lake.

I'm assuming the button is for when you've already lost control of the aircraft and a nose-down spiral into a cliff of a mountain or lake is already pending. Think IMC unusual attitudes gone wrong.

 

[kevin47881]

Just press the button!

 

[SkyHog]

I'm assuming the button is for when you've already lost control of the aircraft and a nose-down spiral into a cliff of a mountain or lake is already pending. Think IMC unusual attitudes gone wrong.

No, no, I'm talking about the chute. That S&L button is an excellent idea, IMHO. Anything that will keep stupids from killing themselves, ya know?

 

[EdFred]

Unfortunately this is just another way we keep the gene pool diluted with idiots.

 

[tonycondon]

i always take a parachute with me when i fly my glider. its not quite as easy as pushing a button but I like to have the option.

 

[SkyHog]

Unfortunately this is just another way we keep the gene pool diluted with idiots.

Gene pool dilluted == lower insurance rates. I'll take it

 

[Pi1otguy]

However, I would like to know what would happen if the plane was in a 75 degree bank and 50 degrees nose down at Vne and then the button gets pushed....do the wings rip right off?

Ejects the wings like those Pipers?

 

[KennyFlys]

I had a discussion on this very matter with a Cirrus owner just a half-hour ago.

He likes it. I think it will be thought of as another "Get me out of trouble!" button for those with no proficiency.

 

[jesse]

Personally, I agree, Jesse, I would never press it either. Once you press it, you lose all control of the aircraft, and may wind up turing an off-field landing into a nose down sprial into a cliff of a mountain, or a lake. I'd rather control my landing spot.

Never is a powerful word. There are times where the chute is your best option.

Of course, if the wing is having chunks of wing fall off...then maybe.

Now you're thinking. How about this one?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20021008X05290&key=1

 

[Pilawt]

its been a pretty popular option in RC aircraft for a while. self leveling, you just have to let go of the controls. i wouldnt not fly an airplane that had it, thats for sure.

Nothing new under the sun. Mooneys had a full-time wing leveler ("Positive Control") as standard equipment in the mid-1960's.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Also, the way I read it, the $48k price tag is for the G1000 package ("Cirrus Perspective"), not for the single button.

I didn't read that attached BLOG entry, so I didn't see that this was the G1000 implemented in a SR22... now that's cool. I've been wondering when this would be an option.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

He likes it. I think it will be thought of as another "Get me out of trouble!" button for those with no proficiency.

It sure could make non-pilot passengers more comfortable that they have an option should you become incapacitated. Even if they have to end up popping the chute, they can fly straight and level to an area better to do so, and do it from a better aircraft attitude.

 

[Ghery]

Just press the button!

I've got one of those. I wonder if my CFII would see the humor in me digging it out and pushing it when something actually goes right while I'm under the hood.

 

[rubber314chicken]

sounds like something that is great to have.. after you have logged 5 hours of training to recover from those conditions.

 

[ggroves]

Unfortunately this is just another way we keep the gene pool diluted with idiots.

Careful...the COPA-Borg collective will show up and smite thee....

Greg

 

[Teller1900]

That S&L button is an excellent idea, IMHO. Anything that will keep stupids from killing themselves, ya know?

I thought that's what superior training and ongoing practice were supposed to be for? I'm affraid this will encourage too many people with too litte skill to try to fly too much of an airplane.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I thought that's what superior training and ongoing practice were supposed to be for? I'm affraid this will encourage too many people with too litte skill to try to fly too much of an airplane.

I wonder if insurance companies will see it as a reduced risk and adjust premiums for aircraft with the "LVL" button installed... time will tell (they'll need empirical data first).

 

[sba55]

This is a horrible idea. Pilots who can't level a SR22 from any attitude/pitch shouldn't be flying to begin with. The parachute makes sense to me because it is intended for situations that pilots can't control. This feature is intended only for situations that pilots can directly control, and this level of control is something that any pilot should be proficient and comfortable with.

-Felix

 

[Greg Bockelman]

This is a horrible idea.

In my opinion, it is no more horrible than the chute.

Pilots who can't level a SR22 from any attitude/pitch shouldn't be flying to begin with.

Inadvertent VFR into IMC. Graveyard spirals on a dark night. Just one more safety feature.

The parachute makes sense to me because it is intended for situations that pilots can't control.

Sorry Felix, but that is debatable. As the Cirrus people say, "Chute Happens". It CAN happen to the best of us.

This feature is intended only for situations that pilots can directly control, and this level of control is something that any pilot should be proficient and comfortable with.

-Felix

Key word here is SHOULD. Not all of us are that diligent about our proficiency.

 

[msupples1]

This is a horrible idea. Pilots who can't level a SR22 from any attitude/pitch shouldn't be flying to begin with. The parachute makes sense to me because it is intended for situations that pilots can't control. This feature is intended only for situations that pilots can directly control, and this level of control is something that any pilot should be proficient and comfortable with.

-Felix

Your justification isn't great. You're saying it's a bad idea to add safety?

What about those pilots who get trapped and stuck in IMC, and get into a graveyard spiral (JFK Jr.)? Should they have to die because you think they should know how to fly better?

Edit: Greg beat me to it...

 

[Everskyward]

Edit: Greg beat me to it...

What Greg said X 3. I don't understand why people would be opposed to a safety feature like that. It probably won't save you from all situations like if you are upside down in a thunderstorm, but what's the harm of having it?

BTW, I've never flown a Cirrus but I'm sure that there are certain situations where I can picture that I would pull the chute, wing falling off for example.

 

[taters]

I am glad they are going to a G1000, but a G36 bonanza is the way to go. The Avidyne system is the most worthless piece of junk I have ever worked with not to mention the lemon Cirrus I fly. Anyone who has an Avidyne Sr20/22 get ready to watch the value of your plane plumit.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What about those pilots who get trapped and stuck in IMC, and get into a graveyard spiral (JFK Jr.)? Should they have to die because you think they should know how to fly better?

Only problem I see is...

Would JFK Jr. have pushed the button?

Considering he crashed a plane with a perfectly good autopilot, I'm guessing no.

That said, for a RESPONSIBLE pilot, I can see this as being a good option in certain situations - I'd agree with the VFR into IMC except for that darn cumulogranite. It's kind of like a "reboot" for the flight. Really, just another tool in the bag of tricks. You just have to use it and use it at the right time.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Only problem I see is...

Would JFK Jr. have pushed the button?

Considering he crashed a plane with a perfectly good autopilot, I'm guessing no.

That said, for a RESPONSIBLE pilot, I can see this as being a good option in certain situations - I'd agree with the VFR into IMC except for that darn cumulogranite. It's kind of like a "reboot" for the flight. Really, just another tool in the bag of tricks. You just have to use it and use it at the right time.

Good point. You can get in a situation like this and not realize it (IMC, incapacitation, etc.). It might be good if a system like this could automatically correct once "armed". If it exceeds pitch/bank limits for a given period with no corrective action, it "fixes it". I can see that this could cause problems if it tried to counter what you wanted it to do, but the autopilot override button still works...

 

[PittsDriver]

There's no way this thing can work as effectively as a functioning pilot trained in aerobatic unusual attitude/recovery. If I were a non-pilot passenger on a flight were the pilot was incapacitated, I'd appreciate a big blue button. At least you'd be OK until the gas runs out...

 

[ScottM]

Both the chute and the panic buttons are not meant, nor are they ever supposed to be substitutes for proficiency. There will be some pilots that use them as such. When that happens these features will save them so that their family can enjoy their company even if we will not. But stuff does happen to the best pilots and having a little extra safety is always a good thing. I wonder if either one of these safety features would have saved the bacon of one the world's best pilots a couple of years ago? I am talking of course of Scott Crossfield. Something as simple as a 396 with WX and perhaps a chute might have gotten him to the ground safely instead of in pieces. If stuff can happen to him then it can happen to all of us too!

 

[sba55]

Sorry Felix, but that is debatable. As the Cirrus people say, "Chute Happens". It CAN happen to the best of us.

You mean an engine out (which is what I was referring to and which is one of the few things where I think the chute _might_ be useful)? In that case, yes, absolutely, it can happen to the best of us. Which is why the chute is not a bad idea.

Key word here is SHOULD. Not all of us are that diligent about our proficiency.

True. Those people are giving us a bad name.

-Felix

 

[sba55]

Your justification isn't great. You're saying it's a bad idea to add safety?

What about those pilots who get trapped and stuck in IMC, and get into a graveyard spiral (JFK Jr.)? Should they have to die because you think they should know how to fly better?

Edit: Greg beat me to it...

To answer your second question. They obviously "shouldn't" have to die, but being killed is a direct consequence of their actions, which in JFKs case were irresponsible. As a society, we tend to try to protect people from their own mindlessness, but that can only go so far. If I decide to do something stupid like JFK did and I know what the consequences are, I can't really complain, can I? The JFK argument doesn't work for you here. He was a pilot who wasn't proficient in the plane he flew and he flew against the advice of more experienced pilots. So no, I do not want nor need safety devices that take away my own accountability for my actions.

Anyways, no, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to add safety.

What I am saying is that this is a sort of safety that should not be needed at all. If we follow this argument all the way, then we can add all sort of "safety" features to accommodate pilots who aren't proficient with the simplest maneuvers out there. At some point, we'll have a plane that just flies itself.

What Greg said X 3. I don't understand why people would be opposed to a safety feature like that. It probably won't save you from all situations like if you are upside down in a thunderstorm, but what's the harm of having it?

BTW, I've never flown a Cirrus but I'm sure that there are certain situations where I can picture that I would pull the chute, wing falling off for example.

Sure, and like I said, the chute is VERY different exactly because it can help in situations where your proficiency won't matter (wing falling off). A button that executes an extremely basic maneuver because someone isn't proficient enough to execute it themselves is useless. It's just a matter of time until that person runs into another problem where there won't be a button to save them. And since they've already proven their lack of judgement by flying a plane into conditions where they shouldn't be flying, it doesn't matter if flying will get them in trouble. Something else will.

Personally, there's no way I'm ever going to get into a plane with someone who can't level an aircraft. That's basic stuff, and if someone can't do that much, I'd rather not know what else they can't do. We shouldn't have pilots who need this feature flying around out there.

-Felix

 

[sba55]

Both the chute and the panic buttons are not meant, nor are they ever supposed to be substitutes for proficiency. There will be some pilots that use them as such. When that happens these features will save them so that their family can enjoy their company even if we will not.

It doesn't matter. If you can't level a plane, yet you're flying it around, you've already demonstrated a lack of judgement. This will come back to bite you at some point, be it in the plane, in a car, or on a jet ski.

I am talking of course of Scott Crossfield. Something as simple as a 396 with WX and perhaps a chute might have gotten him to the ground safely instead of in pieces. If stuff can happen to him then it can happen to all of us too!

Do you really think a blue button could have saved him? I think he was much better at leveling a plane than an autopilot. I know I am, and so I imagine he was even more so. The chute might have been useful, and again, that's because that's a feature that isn't there _only_ to be a replacement for proficiency.

This button is nothing but a replacement for proficiency.

Edit: Wow. 4 posts already. I guess that's enough of my opinion on this topic

-Felix

 

[Henning]

Unfortunately this is just another way we keep the gene pool diluted with idiots.

I don't see that, at least not to the point of the detriment being greater than the value, and not nearly so at that. I'll pose the question from the other end of the spectrum, "Why would any aircraft with a modern microchip driven autopilot not have this button?" There's a myriad of reasons that even the best most proficient pilot can experience fatal spacial disorientation due to various medical causes.

 

[Henning]

It doesn't matter. If you can't level a plane, yet you're flying it around, you've already demonstrated a lack of judgement. This will come back to bite you at some point, be it in the plane, in a car, or on a jet ski.


Do you really think a blue button could have saved him? I think he was much better at leveling a plane than an autopilot. I know I am, and so I imagine he was even more so. The chute might have been useful, and again, that's because that's a feature that isn't there _only_ to be a replacement for proficiency.

This button is nothing but a replacement for proficiency.

Edit: Wow. 4 posts already. I guess that's enough of my opinion on this topic

-Felix

Even if you've just incurred a stroke?

 

[AdamZ]

I don't see that, at least not to the point of theink detriment being greater than the value, and not nearly so at that. I'll pose the question from the other end of the spectrum, "Why would any aircraft with a modern microchip driven autopilot not have this button?" There's a myriad of reasons that even the best most proficient pilot can experience fatal spacial disorientation due to various medical causes.

Yes yes exactly!!! I quietly wonder if all the opposition to the red button ( chute) and blue button ( wing leveler) isn't some kind of fals bravado or macho thing. They are like anyother tool in your bag. How one person uses it may differ from another. Think guns. Folks may say oh my we should't have guns in the home they are dangerous. Well it depends how your use them. You may accidently shoot yourself if your aren't smart but it may save your life if used properly.

And yes chute does happen. I just saw a youtube video of a VERY accomplished Acro pilot in a small BiPlane who died when he had a problem with his alierons the blue or red buttons may have saved him. Here is another thing to think about. And Nick guys or gals who are single may not think of this right off. But Those of us who have families that we fly with think about this ( at least I do but perhaps I'm a bit neurotic) what if I become imcompacitated in the plane and I have Tamson and /orRachel in the plane. The Pinch hitter thing can only take you so far. If I had the $$ to protect them it is definitly something I'd seriously consider.

 

[ScottM]

Do you really think a blue button could have saved him? I think he was much better at leveling a plane than an autopilot.

I don't know. But considering he had a structural failure due to extreme turbulence maybe the chute could have brought the cabin down tot he ground safely or at least enough to be survivable.

 

[silver-eagle]

I think it is a good thing, much like GPS, AIRBAGS, Antilock brakes. The problem is, people RELY on the technology and as a result, lose the skills they need to survive. And since it is an option on a new, expensive plane, we'll find the same people who pop the 'chute at the first sign of trouble getting into more trouble depending upon the blue button to get them out of trouble.
Technology is a wonderful thing but it is only a tool. It can not and does not replace skill and experience.