Cirrus for a student pilot?!

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Rebel Lord, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I'm wondering if this thread is a troll post that deflated. Where's Ed?
     
  2. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    First solo. Or at least that's what he thought he was doing. He walked away.

    25 seconds is not nearly enough after a Blackhawk hover, IMHO.
    The NTSB report wasn't exactly clear but it did attribute the crash to the Blackhawk downwash.
    There are other threads on this crash on here.
     
  3. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies En-Route

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    :nono:

    No he most certainly did NOT walk away. I was a ramprat at FNL when this happened. Took emergency crews a significant amount of time to extricate him and he remained in the hospital for months.

    IIRC head trauma, broken femur, ribs. The cockpit and wing had a huge amount of blood all over it. :(

    Decided he will never returned to aviation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  4. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    My bad, I must have confused it with another crash. I thought he was the lucky one. At least he's alive.
     
  5. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If my dad floated the idea of buying a plane today I would have candidate planes lined up tomorrow.

    Solo in a trainer. Do the tail end of your training in dads SR22. Move on to instrument training immediately.
     
  6. mohamedpac

    mohamedpac Pre-Flight

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    Everything he said.
    Hell, I look at planes I can't afford online so much, if my dad brought up buying a plane I could list off the planes, how much they cost and where they're hangared right there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. pilotjlr

    pilotjlr Pre-Flight

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    I find it baffling when people knock the chute on the Cirrus. Why would you not want that option available to you? There's a number of scenarios where the chute is literally a lifesaver: midair collision (maybe), engine failure in LIFR, engine failure at night with no airports in range, pilot incapacitation, etc.

    Some people have a "super pilot" persona, thinking the chute is for wimps. Macho is what the FAA calls a hazardous attitude, right?
     
  8. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Bryan has a young son...... hmmmmm...... I wonder if we could talk him into the costume/photo....
     
  9. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

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    I'd rather get a plane and learn and train in it that would be my own, and grow into it, rather than getting a plane whose abilities i would quickly outgrow and not serve my mission. that being said, mission, if you just want to fly locally maybe the warrior will do the trick, but if you have intentions on using it otherwise the cirrus may be for you.
     
  10. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    I don't really disagree with that but the OP already stated he would be comfortable continuing on in the Warrior so there's that.

    His dad is also showing a particularly dangerous/cavalier attitude towards safety. Perhaps it's ignorance and it can be trained out. But it is cause for concern.
     
  11. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Remember though Dad is not a pilot.
    Non pilot: Chute = live
     
  12. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    Right which is why I said it can probably be educated out of him. I share that sentiment but it wouldn't make me feel "invincible".
     
  13. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I loved my warrior. It is good for one thing only: training.

    Dad is not the one flying. Either the OP or a contract pilot will be at the controls.
     
  14. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    That statement is(edited - could be) completely false depending on the mission.



    Dad wants to get his license.

    Either way I don't want the owner trying to push the pilot to do something past his comfort zone because the chute will keep us from dying.

    FWIW I'm not arguing one airframe over the other, both are good airplanes, obviously the Cirrus is superior in every category except operating costs.
     
  15. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wtf? Someone says hey let me buy you a plane, the words out of my mouth are yes please and thank you. No matter what it is.
     
  16. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, if the mission includes watching the semis on I80 pass you its perfect.
     
  17. mr_happyland

    mr_happyland Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Because everyone will think you purchased any other kind of plane all by yourself :rofl:
     
  18. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    You might consider a Dakota - lots more horsepower and still a very easy to fly docile airplane that will get you about 143kts TAS.
     
  19. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    And a headwind that would make that possible happens daily, all over the country:rolleyes:
     
  20. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    We've been over this dozens of times, but resources are finite. The chute ads 10s of k $ to the price of the plane. Imagine the training you could buy with that money instead. A freshly-minted PPL could likely get instrument and commercial rated and log hundreds of hours for less than the cost of the chute. And that training will make that pilot safer every time he flies and serve him in more situations than a chute. If you've got the money to do both, great.
     
  21. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    Cirrus is not a very good trainer. Train in a trainer like a 172 or Cherokee or maybe a Diamond D20. Keep it simple.
     
  22. WhiskeyPapa

    WhiskeyPapa Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You're lucky that your dad is willing to support your flying to such a degree! So first of all, be thankful to him! It's great that he's so involved in the idea and (presumably) proud of you for learning to fly.

    If he is a pilot, I would take his advice. If not, tell him that you'd like him to learn with you too so that you can fly together. He may not have the time to spend learning, but suggest it. Don't push your views too hard. You don't have enough experience yet to know what sort of plane suits you most.

    Above all, don't examine the teeth of the "gift horse" too closely. Children are virtually engineered to be ungrateful to their parents, but you seem to be pushing the envelope here.

    Good luck!
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I have but one question for you? "Are you ****ing stupid?" Dude, that post shows me you don't have the decision making skills required to carry passengers safely. Only an idiot would try to talk him out of it. I've been flying all sorts of **** for 30 years. I flew a POS on pipeline patrols where I would have given a left nut to have BRS in the plane, 1/3rd of every day was 'death zone' flying 100' over big rocks.

    Look, let me give you a reality check, the only people who deride a BRS are pilots who can't afford one. Don't let their ego fed self delusion interfere with your safety and survival, and that of your passengers.

    "**** yeah Dad, SR-22 would be awesome, can we get one of the last model ones which have the aluminum fuel tanks, curing the one shortcoming the Cirrus used to have?"

    For ****s sake, start thinking.

    BTW, in aviation, Rebel Lords don't live long.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  24. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The finiteness of resources is an individual matter in our society. Some people's resources are considerably less finite than others, I suspect Rebel Lord's dad's situation is one of 'less finite'.
     
  25. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Pilot: Chute = live, same reality.
     
  26. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    I know but I don't think the non flying gold realize there after parameters and it is not a guaranteed life saver.

    I love having the option should the need arise and wish it would be available on any plane I ever have. But I an also aware there are plenty of situations where that chute will kill me
     
  27. VWGhiaBob

    VWGhiaBob Line Up and Wait

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    From a Cirrus SR22 owner who says "no"...learn in a 172:

    All the stats show the Cirrus parachute saves lives...the fatal accident rate is now the lowest in the GA industry. Many of the remaining accidents are pilots trying off-airport landings, not wanting to use the 'chute. The stats don't lie...pure and simple...having a 'chute greatly increases your safety.

    That said, I do not think a Cirrus is a good learning platform for new pilots. I love mine and wouldn't have any other plane. I'm sure I will get shot down, but here are my reasons:

    * Parachute - You don't have to buy a Cirrus to get a parachute. If you want the 'chute, they are certified for the 172 and 182...by the same manufacturer (BRS) that makes Cirrus 'chutes. Check it out: http://www.brsaerospace.com/certified_aircraft.aspx

    * Flying Characteristics - The wing loading and spring side stick make for tricky flying in some situations (slow in the pattern, for example). While training is the answer to this, why start out with a plane that's more difficult?

    * Complexity - The avionics are vastly more complex than a vanilla 172. This complicates the learning process. I know an able guy who bought a Cirrus for learning purposes. He now has 200 hours of instruction, and his instructor told me he's not ready still. The instructor (who specializes in Cirrus training) also said that Cirrus is not the best platform for new pilots - especially the SR22.

    * Cost - It's roughly double a 172 for the SR20. My cost of ownership (total) is about triple per hour compared to a 172. And since you are a low time pilot, buckle your seat belt when you get insurance estimates. The insurance companies have figured it out: Cirrus is safest with high-time, experienced pilots. Many require Cirrus factory transition training and written / flight tests IN ADDITION TO your private pilot training.

    * Looks - Well that's subjective. I am not really that fond of the looks myself. But when I show passengers the plane with those gull wing doors open, they think it's the coolest plane ever.

    I learned in PA28 and 172 and then did the transition. Every time I get back in a 172 or PA28, I think, "Wow...this is so easy to fly...great place to start for newcomers."

     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  28. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    And they all look the same. I went to a cirrus fly in and it took 2 hours for us to figure out who's plane belonged to whom when it was time to go.


    That's a joke.
     
  29. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    That's because Cirrus owners (actually aircraft owners in general) aren't the creative sort. Nothing preventing you from doing a Candy Red over Candy Apple Blue or Green with Candy Aztec Gold striping over a Pearl White base, kick on some opposite blue and red flip flop for graphics. Put half a teaspoon of microsequine flake in the last clear coat to create depth and spark.

    It's not like there's a huge difference besides paint in the vast majority of 172s or 182s flying.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  30. VWGhiaBob

    VWGhiaBob Line Up and Wait

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    .
    Facts please, boys and girls...

    Fact 1 - Early Cirrus Aircraft HAD to be white due to impact of colors on the composite in the sun (too hot). After a new type of paint was formulated and tested, Cirrus planes started coming out in many crazy and beautiful colors, with interiors to match. Check it out: https://www.google.com/search?q=cir...ytbJAhVN32MKHWqPAcMQ_AUICigE&biw=1438&bih=655

    Fact 2 - Pilots are not creative? A bit of stereotyping maybe? I'm super-creative, dude.
     
  31. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Understood, but that issue apples to less than 10% of the fleet. Again the universal 80/20 split rule applies to creativity among people, 20% being highly creative, 80% relying on the creativity of others to fill those needs. This is saying nothing positive or negative about either sort, just where their niche is in this thing we call society. We are a complex enough society that it requires multiple sorts of people working together to achieve the best end result.

    Now, 80/20 split applies as well as to the amount of pilots who are in a financial position to get into a Cirrus. Once again that 80/20 affects creative people who actually manage to get into that financial bracket. Creativity creates a wonderful and fulfilling life at any level, but it is rare that creativity puts one in the aircraft financial bracket much less the Cirrus one. Look on the ramps, far less than 20% of the planes show any owner inspired creativity to their design. They all carry the basic factory design options. Invasion stripes are the trademark among the RV crowd.:lol:
     
  32. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    Or, maybe he just doesn't WANT a Cirrus. That makes him stupid? Hardly.
     
  33. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's not his bloody money, and his dad isn't ready to totally trust his life to his kid who names himself, "Rebel Lord". It's one thing to be supportive, another to be stupid.

    Given the choices on the market, WTF would you rather fly if it weren't your money?:dunno: Give me a Cirrus any day, it is the superior plane on the market of all the SE GA offerings. Simple as that. It offers the only thing that has proven to grow GA in the last 40 years, BRS. Why the entire industry hasn't taken the bloody hint is a bit wonderous given the Cirrus market share.

    Yes, turning down a free Cirrus to fly is abjectly stupid.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  34. Rebel Lord

    Rebel Lord Line Up and Wait

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    Sir I deeply respect my dad and I'm very thankful that he supports my dream.


    I'm 19 and for me to hop into a plane that i frankly feel is to much plane for me I think is irresponsible. Even my CFI said that he knew of people who pushed their kids into planes that they were not ready for and killed themselves. I don't want to kill myself or my family. I just want him to know that I would be more comfortable with a plane that I've trained in until I build up hours and get training in high performance aircraft. Thats after I get my ppl.

    Sincerely with respect
     
  35. fiveoboy01

    fiveoboy01 Pattern Altitude

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    Yeah. Akin to judging someone by their screen name on a message board:lol:
     
  36. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's not 'too much plane', put in the work, learn it. If you're looking at this as a career, you better get used to learning a lot of stuff fast, and holy **** is there a lot of it. The Cirrus is a benign plane to fly, it's just got a lot of avionics to learn. You think moving into a Cirrus is a jump, wait till you do a type rating; you'll handle it well then too. People learn in Cirrus planes from lesson one, this isn't an F-15.

    Don't be stupid, talking your dad out of a Cirrus for anything less than a 310 would be stupid from any reasonable angle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  37. Rebel Lord

    Rebel Lord Line Up and Wait

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    Honestly I don't even see how we could afford one. Personally I think the Piper saratogas are better looking and would fit my need better for a fraction of the cost. My dad has done no research on planes and he didn't even know that cirrus existed until a few weeks ago when there was a news story of someone pulling the chute or somthing. The only thing that is him sold on cirrus is the chute.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  38. WhiskeyPapa

    WhiskeyPapa Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Until recently, primary training in Russia was in Yak 52s. No big deal. You get used to it. If you own the plane you probably will be able to train 3-4 times a week which will help. Also you're young which should be an advantage. As long as you find a good type-familiar instructor and commit yourself, it shouldn't be a problem. How much experience does the instructor who's warning you off have? I suspect he's not a gray beard & I doubt he has much Cirrus time. But I could be wrong.

    A more relevant question is what type of flying are you likely to be doing. A Cirrus wouldn't be appropriate for a grass strip on your lot or it you're planning to do short grass fields.

    What I'm saying is you shouldn't be frightened of training an a more advanced plane if you own it. But you should ask yourself how you're likely to be using it when you're done.
     
  39. Rebel Lord

    Rebel Lord Line Up and Wait

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    And I'm not at all. My dad is very serious about buying a plane which I would be the sole pilot. I'm trying to push him towards a Saratoga because of the seating capacity and cargo room. I don't mind getting a high performance/complex plane but in trying to be realistic in our price range which is about 50-100k plus has the perk of having roughly the same layout as a Cherokee if I'm not mistaken so I would be familiar
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  40. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Looks have nothing to do with this decision. You can buy a Cirrus for the same price as a Saratoga. The chute sold more people than every other competing manufacturer combined since the Cirrus was introduced, and it has come through for people which is why that trend continues. Like I said, I haven't figured out why the industry hasn't seen the light.:dunno: When I started flying 30 years ago they weren't available. I didn't like night over the desert or ocean SE because I knew if it failed I died, and I flew a lot at night over the desert and ocean. So with 60hrs I bought a turbo twin.

    Having more performance than necessary has never hurt me in life regardless what it was. You can always throttle back, but once you're tapped, you're tapped.