Circling radius and obstacle clearnce.

MAKG1 said:
But category A is a "normal" speed for a 182.
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I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

The category is based on 1.3*Vs0 (or Vref if available) at max gross, which is less than 90 knots for a 182 in all configurations.
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Thanks. That's the information I was missing.
 
Palmpilot said:
I thought the category was determined by the speed being flown during the circling maneuver. If not, what speed is used to make the determination?
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You can elect to fly a Baron, for example at the CAT D MDA and at CAT A IAS. Or, if you elect to fly the Baron during CTL at 125 KIAS, then you must use CAT C CTL minimums. But, if I am in a Cessna Mustang, which I believe is a CAT B airplane, I cannot select a category less than its certified approach category, even if I am light and can circle at 90 KIAS.

The now ancient B-727 was certified for CAT C for straight-in minimums and CAT D for CTL. Some more current airplanes are certified in that manner.
 
Palmpilot said:
It may not have occurred to the authors of the AIM that anyone would think that Category A minimums would apply to anything other than Category A aircraft. You might be tempted to say that they should count if the higher category aircraft stays within the category A circling distance, but that probably would require excessive bank angles, because a faster aircraft is going to have a wider turning radius for a given bank angle.
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One more question, if right before starting to circle, tower says to follow traffic 2nm final on runway and I end up going far out until I abeam the guy on final?
Am I still considered circling or I can go way upto safe altitude but lower than TPA?
Any credible reference are welcome. Thanks.
 
John777 said:
One more question, if right before starting to circle, tower says to follow traffic 2nm final on runway and I end up going far out until I abeam the guy on final?
Am I still considered circling or I can go way upto safe altitude but lower than TPA?
Any credible reference are welcome. Thanks.
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If tower says to follow traffic and you can because you're in visual conditions, then follow the traffic. Just like a normal VFR approach. In IMC, there won't be traffic because YOU are cleared for the approach.

What on God's green earth is the context for this question?

Reference? 14 CFR 91.123(b).
 
MAKG1 said:
If tower says to follow traffic and you can because you're in visual conditions, then follow the traffic. Just like a normal VFR approach. In IMC, there won't be traffic because YOU are cleared for the approach.

What on God's green earth is the context for this question?

Reference? 14 CFR 91.123(b).
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But Shouldn't day suppose to cancel the approach clearance and then tell us to follow the traffic? (assuming that one is doing the training circle.)
 
MAKG1 said:
If tower says to follow traffic and you can because you're in visual conditions, then follow the traffic. Just like a normal VFR approach. In IMC, there won't be traffic because YOU are cleared for the approach.

What on God's green earth is the context for this question?

Reference? 14 CFR 91.123(b).
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It's not that simple. At a Class D airport unless the surface area is VFR, the tower cannot interfere with your CTL maneuver once you have started it. Before you have started it they can request "circle left" or "circle right" (assuming no charted restrictions to circling), but once you've started the CTL maneuver they cannot interfere with your maneuver.

REF: 7110.65, 4-8-6, c. Do not issue clearances, such as “extend downwind leg,” which might cause an aircraft to exceed the circling approach area distance from the runways within which required circling approach obstacle clearance is assured.

And, this can be interpreted that they cannot issue an instruction that will cause you to exceed the circling maneuvering area even when the surface area is VFR. Perhaps it's 1,500 and 4 in rain and at night. I certainly wouldn't want to leave the CLT obstacle clearance area.

This all came about in the early 1970s at KVNY when someone I know was doing the CTL on a busy Saturday morning. The visibility was 1 mile. There were hordes of airplanes well north of the airport waiting for SVFR clearances. And, there was a SVFR on the runway in position. The tower told my friend to extend downwind so the SVFR on the runway could depart. My friend replied, "unable, executing missed approach" and went missed approach instead, which was the correct thing to do. The incident was subsequently brought to the attention of the regional air traffic manager, which resulted in the language I cite above.
 
John777 said:
...Am I still considered circling or I can go way upto safe altitude but lower than TPA?
Any credible reference are welcome. Thanks.
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You are normally allowed to fly the circling maneuver above the circling MDA if you are able to do so without losing sight of the airport (other than temporarily due to banking the aircraft). A reference for Jepp charts is that it is labeled as a circling "MDA" on the chart, i.e., "minimum descent altitude." A reference for FAA charts is that the Aeronautical Chart Users Guide refers to it as a circling "MDA." (See page 74, for example.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf
 
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Palmpilot said:
You are normally allowed to fly the circling maneuver above the circling MDA if you are able to do so without losing sight of the runway (other than temporarily due to banking the aircraft). A reference for Jepp charts is that it is labeled as a circling "MDA" on the chart, i.e., "minimum descent altitude." A reference for FAA charts is that the Aeronautical Chart Users Guide refers to it as a circling "MDA." (See page 74, for example.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf
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Without losing sight of the airport....
 
Palmpilot said:
You are normally allowed to fly the circling maneuver above the circling MDA if you are able to do so without losing sight of the airport (other than temporarily due to banking the aircraft). A reference for Jepp charts is that it is labeled as a circling "MDA" on the chart, i.e., "minimum descent altitude." A reference for FAA charts is that the Aeronautical Chart Users Guide refers to it as a circling "MDA." (See page 74, for example.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf
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I just checked the AIM and it says we can maintain at or above MDA.
So it is soley depending on PIC's sound judgement.
One more thing, I looked at the FAA TERPS and the missed approach area only cares the lateral and obstacle below the aircraft. is this what is allowing us to go missed early as long as we are high enough to clear the trees?
There were only shor explanation on early missed approach.
 
John777 said:
One more thing, I looked at the FAA TERPS and the missed approach area only cares the lateral and obstacle below the aircraft. is this what is allowing us to go missed early as long as we are high enough to clear the trees?
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We're not allowed to go missed early, because of the regulations discussed in post #22. We can climb early, unless otherwise prohibited, but even if we do, we're still required to follow the courses specified on the chart (unless ATC gives us an instruction that takes us off the charted course).

There were only shor explanation on early missed approach.
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My understanding is that TERPS is intended for approach designers, not pilots. In any case it's not a regulation, and therefore cannot override what the regulations say.
 
Palmpilot said:
We're not allowed to go missed early, because of the regulations discussed in post #22. We can climb early, unless otherwise prohibited, but even if we do, we're still required to follow the courses specified on the chart (unless ATC gives us an instruction that takes us off the charted course).


My understanding is that TERPS is intended for approach designers, not pilots. In any case it's not a regulation, and therefore cannot override what the regulations say.
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I have been asking this because no where in the textbook or FAR discusses about the early missed approach. I am really looking for the explanation on this matter.
 
John777 said:
I have been asking this because no where in the textbook or FAR discusses about the early missed approach. I am really looking for the explanation on this matter.
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Climb to the missed approach altitude (you knew what that was from your approach prebrief, right?), fly to the MAP, fly the rest of the procedure from that point on.

Go ask a CFII for specifics and stop trying to teach yourself via the internet,
 
John777 said:
I have been asking this because no where in the textbook or FAR discusses about the early missed approach. I am really looking for the explanation on this matter.
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Why is the wording of 91.175(a), that you must "use" a published instrument approach, not sufficient? If you deviate from the course depicted on a published approach, how could you be considered to still be "using" the approach?
 
This is also covered on page 4-40 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook. You really should become familiar with that book.

The published missed approach procedure provides
obstacle clearance only when the missed approach
is conducted on the missed approach segment from
or above the missed approach point, and assumes a
climb rate of 200 FPNM or higher, as published. If the
aircraft initiates a missed approach at a point other
than the missed approach point, from below MDA or
DA (H), or on a circling approach, obstacle clearance
is not provided by following the published missed
approach procedure, nor is separation assured from
other air traffic in the vicinity.

The missed approach climb is normally executed at
the MAP. If such a climb is initiated at a higher altitude
prior to the MAP, pilots must be aware of any published
climb-altitude limitations, which must be accounted
for when commencing an early climb.

[emphasis added]​
 
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