Circling Missing?

[NealRomeoGolf]

I guess I always thought that using an approach to circle is always an option unless it says NA on the chart. This RNAV approach into Hot Springs (KHOT) lists nothing with circling at all. So I assume if there are no circling minimums you can't circle, even though the ILS and VOR approaches have circling capability. I guess I was surprised that they don't have a Circling NA note on the chart. Should this have one or is it fine the way it is?

 

[Clip4]

The chart tells you what you may do. The FAA is eliminating circling approaches to reduce costs. You will see this format more frequently going forward.

You might have noticed this approach also had no Vnav data.

 

[luvflyin]

I guess I always thought that using an approach to circle is always an option unless it says NA on the chart. This RNAV approach into Hot Springs (KHOT) lists nothing with circling at all. So I assume if there are no circling minimums you can't circle, even though the ILS and VOR approaches have circling capability. I guess I was surprised that they don't have a Circling NA note on the chart. Should this have one or is it fine the way it is?

View attachment 98259

Fine the way it is. There is no Circling Line of Minimums. Ergo, circling ain't allowed. It's that simple. If you want to Circle, there is the ILS/LOC and VOR Approaches.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Fine the way it is. There is no Circling Line of Minimums. Ergo, circling ain't allowed. It's that simple. If you want to Circle, there is the ILS/LOC and VOR Approaches.

That's what I figured. Just the first one I've come across like that. This new IFR world is fun.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Huh. And I guess us mere mortals with old non-WAAS GPSs can’t do this one because only the LPV is listed. That’s odd and I’m not sure I understand why there couldn’t be an LNAV, just to higher mins (I know it says “RNP apch” in the upper left)

 

[John Collins]

The FAA does not chart circling minimums unless the approach procedure includes an LNAV line of minima for RNAV or in the case of an ILS, a localizer line of minima. This is because the vertically guided procedure has a DA and not an MDA and where the missed approach begins is at the DA location on the GS of an LPV or LNAV/VNAV or ILS. To do a circle to land at this airport, you need to fly a different approach. Note also that when LPV or LNAV/VNAV only procedure is charted without an LNAV option, the procedure can't be used to qualify the airport as an alternate.

 

[RussR]

Huh. And I guess us mere mortals with old non-WAAS GPSs can’t do this one because only the LPV is listed. That’s odd and I’m not sure I understand why there couldn’t be an LNAV, just to higher mins (I know it says “RNP apch” in the upper left)

Publishing all three lines of minima (LPV, LNAV/VNAV and LNAV) on an RNAV (GPS) procedure is the default. For some of them not to have been published, there must have been a reason - obstacles is the best bet. If you're really interested, I suggest you contact the FAA directly, they should be able to provide the answer. Contact information is on the IFP Gateway at https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/ . Please let us know what you find out!

"RNP APCH" has nothing to do with it, all RNAV (GPS) procedures are considered "RNP APCH" whether the charts have been updated or not.

And @John Collins is correct, the reason for no circling on this procedure is not related to the circling reduction we're seeing, it's because there are no non-vertically-guided minima on the procedure. See, for example, the Rifle RIL, ILS RWY 26: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2107/pdf/06741I26.PDF , compared to the LOC/DME-A https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2107/pdf/06741LDA.PDF .

 

[MBDiagMan]

When reading my comment, factor in that I’m a flatland pilot. Hot Springs is not a flatland airport. It’s not a Rocky Mountain hideaway either. I fully expect the comments about it being this way to save money is true, but if I were to pop out of a low cloud layer at Hot Springs with unfavorable wind, I think that I might have a tendency to go missed and go to Arkadelphia or somewhere.

One more reason to carry more than the required 45 minute fuel reserve.

 

[aterpster]

When reading my comment, factor in that I’m a flatland pilot. Hot Springs is not a flatland airport. It’s not a Rocky Mountain hideaway either. I fully expect the comments about it being this way to save money is true, but if I were to pop out of a low cloud layer at Hot Springs with unfavorable wind, I think that I might have a tendency to go missed and go to Arkadelphia or somewhere.

One more reason to carry more than the required 45 minute fuel reserve.

Request the ILS Runway 5.

 

[luvflyin]

Publishing all three lines of minima (LPV, LNAV/VNAV and LNAV) on an RNAV (GPS) procedure is the default. For some of them not to have been published, there must have been a reason - obstacles is the best bet. If you're really interested, I suggest you contact the FAA directly, they should be able to provide the answer. Contact information is on the IFP Gateway at https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/ . Please let us know what you find out!

"RNP APCH" has nothing to do with it, all RNAV (GPS) procedures are considered "RNP APCH" whether the charts have been updated or not.

And @John Collins is correct, the reason for no circling on this procedure is not related to the circling reduction we're seeing, it's because there are no non-vertically-guided minima on the procedure. See, for example, the Rifle RIL, ILS RWY 26: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2107/pdf/06741I26.PDF , compared to the LOC/DME-A https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2107/pdf/06741LDA.PDF .

Non precision approach stuff aside for a minute, what’s with the DA’s there? 1014 on the LPV and 732 on the ILS. That seems like big difference. About a 50 foot difference seems about typical.

 

[luvflyin]

Request the ILS Runway 5.

It’s out of service for a while. VOR Approach has the same Circling minimums. Interesting thing is you can Circle to RW31 at night on the ILS/LOC Approach but not the VOR. That doesn’t seem to pass the logic check.

 

[Arnold]

I have no idea of why the LPV mins are so high. I did look at all three charts (ILS/LOC 5, VOR 5, RNAV 5) and the one thing I noticed that did vary significantly is the missed approach procedure. The RNAV has you going back to the IAF while the ILS & VOR have you proceeding to an intersection SE of the field. One could speculate that the ILS & VOR approaches don't have a way to get you back to the approach side of the field, but then there is a LOM (it's still charted so I presume it's still in service). So if they wanted they could send everyone back downwind to start a new approach, but they only do this for the RNAV approach. Curious, but not curious enough to write to anyone.

 

[aterpster]

I have no idea of why the LPV mins are so high. I did look at all three charts (ILS/LOC 5, VOR 5, RNAV 5) and the one thing I noticed that did vary significantly is the missed approach procedure. The RNAV has you going back to the IAF while the ILS & VOR have you proceeding to an intersection SE of the field. One could speculate that the ILS & VOR approaches don't have a way to get you back to the approach side of the field, but then there is a LOM (it's still charted so I presume it's still in service). So if they wanted they could send everyone back downwind to start a new approach, but they only do this for the RNAV approach. Curious, but not curious enough to write to anyone.

The missed approach has issues that could have been avoided by using the same missed approach as the ILS. Seems to be lazy design.

 

[aterpster]

It’s out of service for a while. VOR Approach has the same Circling minimums. Interesting thing is you can Circle to RW31 at night on the ILS/LOC Approach but not the VOR. That doesn’t seem to pass the logic check.

The Jepp charts read identical as to CTL restriction.

 

[aterpster]

Here are all the FAA coordination files for anyone with too much time on their hands:

http://www.wallyroberts.com/HOT