Choice of plane...

cowman

cowman

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Cowman
Yes, it's one of these threads- sort of! This is more of a people question than an airplane question.

I'm soon going to be starting real flight instruction... maybe as soon as this sunday should things work out. Don't know how long this will take- I'm hoping to have my certificate within the next year though.

Anyway I've been cruising barnstomers and trade a plane and looking up specs and whatnot. I know my wife and I will be taking a lot of 200-400nmi trips and we pack pretty light. So for just us, one of the cessna 172s they rent out at our local airport would work. Although I'm almost certain I'll want the flexibility of owning my own at some point. If it's almost always just the two of us my favorite choices so far are a Cessna 177 or a pa-28-180.


But... I have a lot of pretty close lifelong friends who are scattered all around the midwest. My first though after flying out to the small airports to go hang out with them on the weekends again was picking up a few friends and heading out on a fishing trip or hunting trip... or some event or whatever that we all wanted to do. We also have some couples we like to things with... and so on and so forth.

I've gotten only yes answers as far as any of these people being interested in getting in my hypothetical airplane and going off on hypothetical adventures.

So if I'm carrying all my rowdy friends all over the place, a cherokee six of some sort becomes the obvious choice. But, then if I'm taking a lot of just me and the wife trips that's a lot of extra airplane and a lot of extra gas burned... plus whatever extra insurance costs there are.

Then of course there's the choice of a PA-28-235 or a 182. Still reasonable for 2, and with a little fuel trade-off still good for 4.


The bear of all this is, as you can see, I have a pretty good idea of what airplane I'm going to want for a given mission. But I'm probably only going to be able to afford one airplane- and it's hard to know how many people will want to go on how many trips with me before the airplane goes from theory to reality.

So, thoughts/opinions/experiences? I can't imagine I'm the first person to be thinking about this sort of situation.
 
The C182 does a lot of things very well. Pull back on the throttle a little to reduce fuel consumption.
 
Cherokee 6 is a fine bird if you're hauling stuff around 95% of the time, the rest of the time you're feeding 260-300hp engine to haul a cessna 150 load around at barely over cessna 150 speed. 400NM trips are a bit long for me anyway in a PA28/cessna 172 variety of airplanes. Perhaps consider something that will fold the wheels up, the MX will be a little more ( but might be made up via less time in the air going places) and unless you're talking new G36 price range, insurance won't be that big of a hit. 182RG/Lance/Bo were what I looked at and I had what appears to be a similar mission as you. You may be different than me, I thought I was going to suff 4 people all the time in my plane, it's usually just me + 1 other person. i bought the Cherokee, loved it, but it wasn't a machine for making routine one way 400NM trips in. Here is one of the 2 trips I bought the bonanza for. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N2718P on the way to M40, we were fighting a 30 knot headwind, that would have been A LONG day in a PA28/C172.
 
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cowman said:
So, thoughts/opinions/experiences? I can't imagine I'm the first person to be thinking about this sort of situation.
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Go ahead and get Mooney or Bonanza. My first plane was a BE 95 Travelair I bought with about 60hrs TT
 
KEAU to KPPQ would be one common flight. Takes 7-8 hours in a car. Even in a 172, the airplane option will beat the crap out of the way I have been doing it in the past.

But yeah the other makes interest me too, I just don't see as much about them. Seems like when you start talking about 4 seater single engine aircraft, Cessna and Piper are the only two anyone really discusses.
 
cowman said:
KEAU to KPPQ would be one common flight. Takes 7-8 hours in a car. Even in a 172, the airplane option will beat the crap out of the way I have been doing it in the past.

But yeah the other makes interest me too, I just don't see as much about them. Seems like when you start talking about 4 seater single engine aircraft, Cessna and Piper are the only two anyone really discusses.
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You've never been around many Beechcraft folks have you? :D
 
Buy the airplane that accommodates the 80% of your flying, not the 20%.

The 180hp Cessna 172 is a great all around airplane.
 
cowman said:
KEAU to KPPQ would be one common flight. Takes 7-8 hours in a car. Even in a 172, the airplane option will beat the crap out of the way I have been doing it in the past.

But yeah the other makes interest me too, I just don't see as much about them. Seems like when you start talking about 4 seater single engine aircraft, Cessna and Piper are the only two anyone really discusses.
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Hmmmm, you haven't been around long then...;)

One thing to consider the more you use a plane to travel is that retractable landing gear is worth a lot in fuel economy. A 4 cylinder Mooney will get 17.5nmpg or so at 145kts, the 172 gets 16nmpg at 115kts.
 
Henning said:
Hmmmm, you haven't been around long then...;)

A 4 cylinder Mooney will get 17.5nmpg or so at 145kts
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You can find a nice J model with all the speed mods that is 170 knot cruiser, but it's hard to find one with all the mods for less than 100k
 
DavidWhite said:
You can find a nice J model with all the speed mods that is 170 knot cruiser, but it's hard to find one with all the mods for less than 100k
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Decent examples of older Bonanza's can be had for half that. Bonanza are just so much cooler than Mooney's. :D
 
bartmc said:
Decent examples of older Bonanza's can be had for half that. Bonanza are just so much cooler than Mooney's. :D
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I'll say that Bos are much classier than Mooneys. A Bo is more space and more fuel burn, something that I want neither of.
 
DavidWhite said:
I'll say that Bos are much classier than Mooneys. A Bo is more space and more fuel burn, something that I want neither of.
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From what I can tell, @9500' I'm burning 13GPH at WOT 100 degress ROP getting 162 knots TAS. Wha 'chu gonna get in that Mooney (no doubt the Mooney is better, on the fossil fuels just wonderin')
 
Also the deal you got on your Bo was really a screaming deal that I doubt will be recreated anytime soon.
 
cowman said:
KEAU to KPPQ would be one common flight. Takes 7-8 hours in a car. Even in a 172, the airplane option will beat the crap out of the way I have been doing it in the past.
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Just at a data point, my RV-6A will do this trip in 2 hours and 15gal. But my RV is a little slow for an RV.
 
DavidWhite said:
Also the deal you got on your Bo was really a screaming deal that I doubt will be recreated anytime soon.
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It was fair market value for a guy who wanted to sell a plane, 5K less (what I originally offered him) would have been a deal. I've seen 2 similar (or better) deals in the past month... Good luck with the Mooney and selling the 172.

OP, Beechcraft, Mooney, Piper, Cessna are the "big 4" for brands. Doin' a lot of XC flying? Folding wheels make sense IMHO. If you're a PPL student pilot insurance is going to eat you the first year or two, but then you'll have it knocked out.. otherwise you have to buy, fly and sell a plane, then get your HP/Complex retract time and take the hit. Had I bought my Bonanza when I got my PPL, I'd be money and safety ahead right now over buying the cherokee and putting 250 hours on it, fixin' it up, selling it and buying again. Though, I did go a little above and beyond on the "fixin' it up" part.
 
mike d said:
Just at a data point, my RV-6A will do this trip in 2 hours and 15gal. But my RV is a little slow for an RV.
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one more data point is that RVs are two seaters (Except the 10), experimentals, built by "who knows?". For a first time or "fresh" buyer I'd recommend to steer CLEAR of experimentals or do more homework than you think necessary, IMHO one needs to really know what they're looking at with home builts. Aside from a couple of pristine examples at airshows, I've never seen an experimental I'd fly in. A few I thought I would, until I talked to the builder/owner a little more.
 
bartmc said:
It was fair market value for a guy who wanted to sell a plane, 5K less (what I originally offered him) would have been a deal. I've seen 2 similar (or better) deals in the past month... Good luck with the Mooney and selling the 172.

OP, Beechcraft, Mooney, Piper, Cessna are the "big 4" for brands. Doin' a lot of XC flying? Folding wheels make sense IMHO. If you're a PPL student pilot insurance is going to eat you the first year or two, but then you'll have it knocked out.. otherwise you have to buy, fly and sell a plane, then get your HP/Complex retract time and take the hit. Had I bought my Bonanza when I got my PPL, I'd be money and safety ahead right now over buying the cherokee and putting 250 hours on it, fixin' it up, selling it and buying again. Though, I did go a little above and beyond on the "fixin' it up" part.
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Yeah we are definitely losing money on selling the 172. That thing is my baby, and it shows.
 
DavidWhite said:
You can find a nice J model with all the speed mods that is 170 knot cruiser, but it's hard to find one with all the mods for less than 100k
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More like 160 KTAS, but still a nice ride, and very effecient.
 
bartmc said:
It was fair market value for a guy who wanted to sell a plane, 5K less (what I originally offered him) would have been a deal. I've seen 2 similar (or better) deals in the past month... Good luck with the Mooney and selling the 172.

OP, Beechcraft, Mooney, Piper, Cessna are the "big 4" for brands. Doin' a lot of XC flying? Folding wheels make sense IMHO. If you're a PPL student pilot insurance is going to eat you the first year or two, but then you'll have it knocked out.. otherwise you have to buy, fly and sell a plane, then get your HP/Complex retract time and take the hit. Had I bought my Bonanza when I got my PPL, I'd be money and safety ahead right now over buying the cherokee and putting 250 hours on it, fixin' it up, selling it and buying again. Though, I did go a little above and beyond on the "fixin' it up" part.
Click to expand...

bartmc said:
one more data point is that RVs are two seaters (Except the 10), experimentals, built by "who knows?". For a first time or "fresh" buyer I'd recommend to steer CLEAR of experimentals or do more homework than you think necessary, IMHO one needs to really know what they're looking at with home builts. Aside from a couple of pristine examples at airshows, I've never seen an experimental I'd fly in. A few I thought I would, until I talked to the builder/owner a little more.
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RV10s are nice airplanes but a nice RV10 is usually well north of 150k
 
For a budget, I'm guesstimating to insure, maintain, park, and actually fly I'll probably be in for as much as $20k/yr

I'd like to spend $60k(or less), but for the right plane in the right condition I'd probably be able to swing $100k. At either price I'd want one with at least 1,000hrs left on the engine and in good/safe flyable shape now and for the foreseeable future.

For 100k I want something in great shape with a nice interior and at least good paint that will at least hold 4 adult males with enough fuel for at least a couple hours of flight. Also want a moving map GPS...

Is that all pretty reasonable as far as expectations?
 
cowman said:
For a budget, I'm guesstimating to insure, maintain, park, and actually fly I'll probably be in for as much as $20k/yr

I'd like to spend $60k(or less), but for the right plane in the right condition I'd probably be able to swing $100k. At either price I'd want one with at least 1,000hrs left on the engine and in good/safe flyable shape now and for the foreseeable future.

For 100k I want something in great shape with a nice interior and at least good paint that will at least hold 4 adult males with enough fuel for at least a couple hours of flight. Also want a moving map GPS...

Is that all pretty reasonable as far as expectations?
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I'd probably sell the Frankenkota for 60,000 but it doesn't have 1,000 before TBO. It'll do 4 adult males and a lot of fuel (4+ hours) with about 1,100 useful. It's also a good first aircraft with fixed gear and very forgiving handling.
 
cowman said:
For a budget, I'm guesstimating to insure, maintain, park, and actually fly I'll probably be in for as much as $20k/yr

I'd like to spend $60k(or less), but for the right plane in the right condition I'd probably be able to swing $100k. At either price I'd want one with at least 1,000hrs left on the engine and in good/safe flyable shape now and for the foreseeable future.

For 100k I want something in great shape with a nice interior and at least good paint that will at least hold 4 adult males with enough fuel for at least a couple hours of flight. Also want a moving map GPS...

Is that all pretty reasonable as far as expectations?
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OK, I'm going to make the decision here. :D Get your PPL in a Cessa 150, then buy a Bonanza. In that range, start looking at S or V models.
 
Having owned four planes ranging from a 2-seat trainer type to a light twin, I'm going to say that want you probably want is a 180 HP fixed-gear 4-seater. It will do pretty much all the things you want without being serious overkill on the least of them. Planes in this class include

Cessna Cardinal and 180HP STC's Skyhawk
Piper Archer/180 Cherokee
Grumman AA-5B Tiger
Beech 23 Sundowner

They are all variations on the theme, so you should fly them all and see which you like best, and get your significant other along for the ride -- yes, that's important if you don't want a case of the other type of AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome).

If you really expect to want to carry four adults and baggage a significant amount of the time, then going the next step up to the Dakota/182 class would make sense, but they will cost more to operate, and if 90% of your flying can be handled with the planes I mentioned, it doesn't make sense to go that route.

No doubt folks will tout the benefits of some Experimentals or high performance/complex types, but for a first ownership experience, trust me -- you want to keep it simple.
 
Ron Levy said:
Having owned four planes ranging from a 2-seat trainer type to a light twin, I'm going to say that want you probably want is a 180 HP fixed-gear 4-seater. It will do pretty much all the things you want without being serious overkill on the least of them. Planes in this class include

Cessna Cardinal and 180HP STC's Skyhawk
Piper Archer/180 Cherokee
Grumman AA-5B Tiger
Beech 23 Sundowner

They are all variations on the theme, so you should fly them all and see which you like best, and get your significant other along for the ride -- yes, that's important if you don't want a case of the other type of AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome).

If you really expect to want to carry four adults and baggage a significant amount of the time, then going the next step up to the Dakota/182 class would make sense, but they will cost more to operate, and if 90% of your flying can be handled with the planes I mentioned, it doesn't make sense to go that route.

No doubt folks will tout the benefits of some Experimentals or high performance/complex types, but for a first ownership experience, trust me -- you want to keep it simple.
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This is the same advice I took, and followed. It cost me somewhere between 5K-10K over what it would have to arrive at the same place I am today.... AND I have less experience and confidence in my current plane that I would have otherwise.

If your going to buy a PA28-180 and keep it for life. By all means. If you're going to buy a PA-28, put some money in it (and you will), fly it for 200-300 hours sell it and upgrade to a complex/retract, you're going to eat some cash.

I don't regret buying the Cherokee, though, after owning it for a while, I thought "Damn, I should have bought something else" 100hrs into owning it. Hindsight is 20/20. Given the situation I was in, I'd probably buy the cherokee again. Had I known then, what I know know, I wouldn't.
 
Don't be surprised if you later find the Bo is overkill and drop back to something simpler. And not because of the money, but because the reason you owned the faster go-somewhere airplane has changed and a easier keeper with more of a fun element makes more sense for your current situation. I see it frequently and have made a similar move myownself.

bartmc said:
This is the same advice I took, and followed. It cost me somewhere between 5K-10K over what it would have to arrive at the same place I am today.... AND I have less experience and confidence in my current plane that I would have otherwise.

If your going to buy a PA28-180 and keep it for life. By all means. If you're going to buy a PA-28, put some money in it (and you will), fly it for 200-300 hours sell it and upgrade to a complex/retract, you're going to eat some cash.

I don't regret buying the Cherokee, though, after owning it for a while, I thought "Damn, I should have bought something else" 100hrs into owning it. Hindsight is 20/20. Given the situation I was in, I'd probably buy the cherokee again. Had I known then, what I know know, I wouldn't.
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wabower said:
Don't be surprised if you later find the Bo is overkill and drop back to something simpler. And not because of the money, but because the reason you owned the faster go-somewhere airplane has changed and a easier keeper with more of a fun element makes more sense for your current situation. I see it frequently and have made a similar move myownself.
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right now I live 450 miles from my mother and 500 miles from my inlaws. That's the mission. The Bonanza makes those flights non-events. A little longer, I ride the airlines, a little shorter, I'll drive. Granted we've only done the round trip a couple of times so far (I've only lived here 5 weeks). Flying is fun, but for the amount of $ I've put into, it has to have some function for me to own over renting a Cessna 172 once a month for a joy ride. When my mission changes to "for fun". I'll sell the Bonanza and rent a 172 once or twice a month until I get tired of it. My mission from day 1 was to go places, having fun was just a bonus. We haven't taken a vacation in 3 years by car or airlines, I can't remember the last time I drove over 100 miles. I agree though, I see a few people selling their A36 and buying a Cherokee for the reasons you mention, I see far more going the other way.
 
wabower said:
Don't be surprised if you later find the Bo is overkill and drop back to something simpler. And not because of the money, but because the reason you owned the faster go-somewhere airplane has changed and a easier keeper with more of a fun element makes more sense for your current situation. I see it frequently and have made a similar move myownself.
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Owning a simple aircraft has many pluses. Makes it hard to let go of the Frankenkota. The darn thing will put up with almost anything I do to it...and you shoulda seen the last landing...it was a work of art and no effort at all I tell ya...
 
I guess what I really need to do is once I have an idea of what I'm doing at the controls try to get a chance to fly a couple of different aircraft and see what I like.

Trouble is all my FBO has are 2 172s and a 152.
 
Vans are one of the few experimentals where you have a major resale market of professionally built planes to choose from which puts them in contention for actually buying a good one reasonably quickly. If experimental doesn't scare you away and you are handy with some vacation time to take and a bigger budget there is also the Glasair Sportsman with 'two week to taxi' and factory assist build program to get you done and flying a known safe well built plane for the minimum pain in the minimum time, and often for less money overall than if you build alone at home.
 
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