Checkride xc question

simtech

simtech

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Simtech
I am using victor airways for my entire route and am a /u aircraft. My question is at one point non compulsory reporting points are very close together and a lot of them. I know I don't have to report these so knowing that my question might already be answered. But can I skip over the ones that are really close for checkpoints or do they like to see them on the nav log even if a mile apart? I had skipped them making most of my check points about 20 miles apart. Just wondering...thanks
 
Compulsory reporting points for VFR? Where did that come from? Your plan to use checkpoints every 20 miles or so is just fine if they are features on the ground.

Bob Gardner
 
simtech said:
This is for IFR flight.
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OK, I wasn't clear on that. When I was a DE I would not have expected an applicant to include noncompulsory reporting points.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
OK, I wasn't clear on that. When I was a DE I would not have expected an applicant to include noncompulsory reporting points.

Bob
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These are fixes on the victor airway. I was using them as checkpoints but seemed like a ton of them. So I just skipped some to keep them about 20nm apart for the nav log. Still managed to make it a 2 page nav log for 240 nm trip.
 
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Set your checkpoints at bends in airways, or at a fix along a straight leg more than 30 minutes in length. With the exception of bends, you don't really want to position them closer than 15 minutes apart.
 
I'm thinking that if you're asking this question here at this point in your training, your instructor has failed you miserably on IFR flight planning. What you should have been taught is that your nav log for IFR XC's only includes turn points, i.e., VOR's, waypoints where a T-route course changes, and intersections where a V-airway course changes. That's it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm thinking that if you're asking this question here at this point in your training, your instructor has failed you miserably on IFR flight planning. What you should have been taught is that your nav log for IFR XC's only includes turn points, i.e., VOR's, waypoints where a T-route course changes, and intersections where a V-airway course changes. That's it.
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In other words, As Little As Necessary / Possible ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm thinking that if you're asking this question here at this point in your training, your instructor has failed you miserably on IFR flight planning. What you should have been taught is that your nav log for IFR XC's only includes turn points, i.e., VOR's, waypoints where a T-route course changes, and intersections where a V-airway course changes. That's it.
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I was in a 141 school in texas. It was easy, every where we went was right out side the departure procedure. Fast forward today (2 weeks later) no DP's so Im figuring doing it from start to finish off of VOR's. So actually at my home base I have no CFI. Great.. I know.

So less is more. I put in some checkpoints for SA. I suppose that is bad. So between a straightline VOR to VOR of 100 nm. No check points, maybe the COP...
 
Ron Levy said:
Then who's endorsing you for the practical test?
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Already endorsed from the 141 school. I was scheduled to do my checkride in Texas but the weather prevented it. So Im signed off ready to take it.
 
simtech said:
Already endorsed from the 141 school. I was scheduled to do my checkride in Texas but the weather prevented it. So Im signed off ready to take it.
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I strongly recommend you get with an instrument instructor in your local area who is familiar with the examiner from whom you will take the practical test for a final tune-up, because a) the school in Texas clearly hasn't fully prepared you (no idea what else they missed besides IFR flight planning), and b) there are always surprises with any examiner (it shouldn't be that way, but it is).
 
if you are flying on an airway from one vor to another vor you dont need to include every intersection (unless a bend or change in direction or course) in your nav log that would just be redundant and pointless. for example if flying from ABC V111 BCD you would not need to include all the intersecitons because they lie on that victor airway which is what you are navigating on. i agree with Ron, somewhere your instructor messed up on teaching you how to do IFR x country planning
 
There's nothing wrong with putting every fix on the airway on your nav log. That's what I do.

Okay, not really...but you could. Not seeing how that equates to 'clearly hasn't prepared you'.
 
Btw, when radar craps out you'll be happy you have all those times listed for the now compulsory reporting points.
 
Captain said:
Btw, when radar craps out you'll be happy you have all those times listed for the now compulsory reporting points.
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Position reporting over compulsory reporting points is not required when an aircraft is in radar contact. Position reporting over other reporting points is only required when ATC has specifically requested such a report.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0503.html

5-3-2, specifically look at c3.

Please, tell me I'm wrong. I'm too new to be absolutely certain which is why I went and looked it up and read it 7 times...
 
Ron Levy said:
I strongly recommend you get with an instrument instructor in your local area who is familiar with the examiner from whom you will take the practical test for a final tune-up, because a) the school in Texas clearly hasn't fully prepared you (no idea what else they missed besides IFR flight planning), and b) there are always surprises with any examiner (it shouldn't be that way, but it is).
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I actually did go up with an instructor and a safety pilot who did the checkride with the DPE. Flying wise they all agree I got it. I used most of the said check points and sent it to my old CFI and he agreed and liked it. And he sent up my safety pilot with that DPE. I think Ill be fine. I was just wondering if they all are really needed. I can see both ways. Thats why I didnt put down all the points.

I kind of thought vor to vor was all I needed but after I did it all paper wise, I put the route into foreflight and it slapped up every point in the nav log. So that is when I questioned.
 
ChrisK said:
Position reporting over compulsory reporting points is not required when an aircraft is in radar contact. Position reporting over other reporting points is only required when ATC has specifically requested such a report.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0503.html

5-3-2, specifically look at c3.

Please, tell me I'm wrong. I'm too new to be absolutely certain which is why I went and looked it up and read it 7 times...
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He said when radar craps out. Radar contact you dont report, but if you lost radar contact then you would report them.? However the points Im talking about are non compulsory points.
 
simtech said:
I kind of thought vor to vor was all I needed but after I did it all paper wise, I put the route into foreflight and it slapped up every point in the nav log. So that is when I questioned.
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I also noticed that Foreflight had minor course changes when navigating from VOR to VOR to include the route fixes, which I thought was really quite odd since the chart itself doesn't indicate a course change. I thought maybe it was a minor calculation error in the way that the fixes were defined and used by the Foreflight software. They didn't amount to any real difference in how the route is to be flown. I elected to ignore Foreflight and go with what the chart said. My examiner approved of the following:

http://toph.net/ir-checkride-kbuf.xlsx
 
simtech said:
He said when radar craps out. Radar contact you dont report, but if you lost radar contact then you would report them.? However the points Im talking about are non compulsory points.
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He seemed to suggest that when radar contact is lost the non-compulsory reporting points become compulsory. That's what I'm disagreeing with. If he didn't mean that and I misread, we have no issue.
 
ChrisK said:
He seemed to suggest that when radar contact is lost the non-compulsory reporting points become compulsory. That's what I'm disagreeing with. If he didn't mean that and I misread, we have no issue.
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Sheesh,

When the radar craps out (that means non-radar now) you'll be happy you have all those times for the now compulsory reporting points (compulsory because the radar craped out. Not to be construed as the non-compulsory points are now compulsory, rather...the compulsory points are now compulsory as the radar craped out).
 
Captain said:
Sheesh,

When the radar craps out (that means non-radar now) you'll be happy you have all those times for the now compulsory reporting points (compulsory because the radar craped out. Not to be construed as the non-compulsory points are now compulsory, rather...the compulsory points are now compulsory as the radar craped out).
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In other news, that alcoholic beverage I had was delicious.

Right this makes more sense. You see why I was confused =)
 
simtech said:
I actually did go up with an instructor and a safety pilot who did the checkride with the DPE. Flying wise they all agree I got it.
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That's fine as far as it goes, but you don't get to the flying part until you pass the ground part, and your IFR XC planning is part of the ground part.
 
Jeeze Ron, the guy just wanted to know if the examiner is going to want to see every point on his nav log. You say no, I say it wouldn't be the end of the world if he did. Why are you so down on him?
 
Captain said:
Jeeze Ron, the guy just wanted to know if the examiner is going to want to see every point on his nav log. You say no, I say it wouldn't be the end of the world if he did. Why are you so down on him?
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I'm not down on him, I'm down on the instructor in Texas who clearly did not fully prepare him for this test before signing the endorsement. That makes me very concerned he's going to have a bad experience on the practical test unless someone who knows better what to expect puts him through a good, thorough, and complete practice test reflective of the one this particular DPE will give.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not down on him, I'm down on the instructor in Texas who clearly did not fully prepare him for this test before signing the endorsement.
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You've read but a tiny snippet of this guys preparation and now have declared his checkride is all but a certain failure. :nonod:

So how many check ride failures do your signed off students average a year? Should we use that to gauge your teaching abilities? :nono:
 
Just list en-route fixes where course changes are required between your origin and destination airports. Choose fixes that composes a route that will help you avoid airspace conflicts and altitudes (on or off-route) that will avoid terrain. If you will be flying under radar, no reporting is necessary. If radar contact is lost, ATC will ask for your position and ask you to report reaching a non-compulsory reporting point fix to establish your precise position until radar contact is re-established.
 
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