Checkride?? Steep turns under the hood?

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Joe G.

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Joe G.
Hello,

Trying to get some clarification on a point of checkrides...
Has anyone had to do steep turns under the hood for the PPL checkride? I can't find anything in the PTS or other documentation but, I am told by my instructor that he believes the local DPE asks for this to be done. I would make the argument that I continually see refrence to part of the "passing" PTS being that the pilot is giving adequate attention to both the outside refrences as well as the inside panel which would lead me to believe this is not an "under the hood" maneuver. I know it's entirely possible I am wrong so looking for more experienced and educated minds to weigh in.

My second part to the question is... Can a DPE ask for this maneuver (or any other I suppose) even if it's not in the PTS for the checkride?

Thanks for anyone who can offer some insight.

Joe
 
I was not asked to do them and I don't *think* they are in the published PTS, but if your CFI prepares you for them then I would probably agree to just do it anyway, if asked and you feel comfortable with them.
 
I don't believe a hood even went with us on my PPL checkride, but that was 39 years ago ...
 
I didn't have to do a steep turn under the hood and I don't think that's in the PPL PTS.
 
I did some things under the hood during checkride prep and the checkride. Instrument training has wiped much of the details from my memory of my PPL checkride. Maybe 10-15 minutes? Logbook shows 0.2 simulated. Straight and level, turns to heading, climb and descend. Steep turns? Unlikely, but your CFI should know the DPE. I'd take his advice.
 
Doubt very much that ,steep turns under the hood,would be tested for ppl test .
 
What's the problem if he wants them? It isn't a difficult maneuver. Why not practice a few and be prepared? If you fly into a cloud you'll likely get to do one in real life. There's no reason to be scared of it.
 
No steep turns under the hood as described in the PTS. Some fairly abrupt maneuvers during the recovery from unusual attitudes part though.

Given the amount I was screamed at to "keep your head out the window" during my steep turn instruction, I'd be very surprised if *anyone* has been trained on them under the hood. At least for a pp cert.
 
txflyer said:
I don't believe a hood even went with us on my PPL checkride, but that was 39 years ago ...
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I was definitely required to demonstrate control by sole reference to the instruments (under the hood) on the Private Pilot check ride and that was 49 years ago. Steep turns under the hood? I really don't remember :dunno:
 
txflyer said:
I don't believe a hood even went with us on my PPL checkride, but that was 39 years ago ...
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I did mine over 40yrs ago, and yes there was some minimal hood work. Basically the ability to hold a heading/altitude and complete the 180 turn.
 
Old Geek said:
No steep turns under the hood as described in the PTS. Some fairly abrupt maneuvers during the recovery from unusual attitudes part though.
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As I recall my examiner was big on unusual attitude recovery and timed turns, not that hard with everything working…on the instrument check ride it was the same things plus stalls and steep turns partial panel.
 
Stewartb said:
What's the problem if he wants them? It isn't a difficult maneuver. Why not practice a few and be prepared? If you fly into a cloud you'll likely get to do one in real life. There's no reason to be scared of it.
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Agreed.... My check ride was 30+ years ago and I seem to remember steeps turns under the hood....:confused::confused::confused:...


It ain't hard. Just look at the AH,,,, VSI ...and lastly the altimeter.. Easy Pleasy... I practice them about once a month and as Stewart said... One day you WILL end up in a cloud and you will need one to get your ass out of a "issue"...:rolleyes::rolleyes::yesnod:
 
N801BH said:
Agreed.... My check ride was 30+ years ago and I seem to remember steeps turns under the hood....:confused::confused::confused:...


It ain't hard. Just look at the AH,,,, VSI ...and lastly the altimeter.. Easy Pleasy... I practice them about once a month and as Stewart said... One day you WILL end up in a cloud and you will need one to get your ass out of a "issue"...:rolleyes::rolleyes::yesnod:
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I don't know if steep turns are such a good idea for a VFR pilot who inadvertently flies into IMC. My instructor stressed that if I were to fly into a cloud, I should make a nice, standard-rate turn 180 degrees and fly back out.
 
asechrest said:
I don't know if steep turns are such a good idea for a VFR pilot who inadvertently flies into IMC. My instructor stressed that if I were to fly into a cloud, I should make a nice, standard-rate turn 180 degrees and fly back out.
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Depends if you fly around cumulo granite clouds daily...;);)
 
asechrest said:
I don't know if steep turns are such a good idea for a VFR pilot who inadvertently flies into IMC. My instructor stressed that if I were to fly into a cloud, I should make a nice, standard-rate turn 180 degrees and fly back out.
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A chandelle is my preferred method.
 
As a matter of fact, I remember now the DPE actually chastised me for using more than a standard rate turn while under the hood. He said standard rate or less in IMC.
 
I didn't find anything in the PTS for a steep turn with the hood on. If the DPE tests on this, make sure you do a few with your CFI.
 
I don't know why he would make you:dunno:

The PTS says satisfactory performance is based on your ability to perform the tasks specified in the area of operation.

Don't know which task it would fall under.

"Steep turns" says nothing about instrument flight, and doing a steep turn solely by reference to instruments is listed as a common error in the Airplane Flying Handbook. So I'm ruling that task out.

Basic instrument flying shows "turns to a heading" and that states a standard rate turn so I'm ruling that task out.

And "recovery from unusual attitudes" states that the applicant will recovery promptly to a stabilized level flight attitude. So I'm ruling that one out.

It isn't a particularly difficult maneuver, but if you screwed it up, I'd say you could fight that one with the FAA. Just ask him in the pre-brief if he is going to make you do it and tackfully ask why.
 
jordane93 said:
I didn't find anything in the PTS for a steep turn with the hood on. If the DPE tests on this, make sure you do a few with your CFI.
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Steep turns don't fit the description of anything required under "BASIC INSTRUMENT MANEUVERS" in the Private Pilot PTS. Turns to headings are required to be at standard rate under the hood, which definitely excludes steep turns IMO.

If it were me, I'd check with the FSDO as to whether steep turns under the hood is a combination that can be tested under the Private Pilot PTS before I'd go take a checkride with this guy.

The Instrument PTS is written such that an examiner could require them, but I think a Private Pilot examiner would be exceeding his bounds to do so.
 
I am 100% sure the DPE had the plane in a very steep bank and nose up 25 dgrees when he handed in back to me while I was under the hood during the unusual attitude recovery test........:yes:
 
asechrest said:
I don't know if steep turns are such a good idea for a VFR pilot who inadvertently flies into IMC. My instructor stressed that if I were to fly into a cloud, I should make a nice, standard-rate turn 180 degrees and fly back out.
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Agreed. Plus, they are a challenge for someone with the minimum level of hood work needed for the PPL. It became easy when doing my instrument training and it was on the instrument check ride, but holding altitude by instruments, especially after 180 degrees can be a challenge.
 
I'll never forget my float check ride. The DPE nudged me and told me to relax, I'd passed. And then he gave me the best hour+ lesson I'd ever had in my life. Some of you guys sound like you defend performing to minimum standards. You ought to aim higher.

One of my early instructors asked me to do 360* turns. He asked what the PPS altitude deviation was. I told him. He asked what my standard was. I figured he was fishing for an answer so I said 25'. He looked at me and asked what was wrong with zero deviation. Maintain altitude. Pretty simple once the standard is set. That was a great lesson as well.
 
Steep turns under the hood aren't even in the Instrument-Airplane PTS any more (eliminated 10 years ago). Nothing to stop the examiner from asking you to do them, but neither your refusal to do it nor your poor performance on one if you choose to do it can be held against you.
 
Stewartb said:
What's the problem if he wants them? It isn't a difficult maneuver. Why not practice a few and be prepared? If you fly into a cloud you'll likely get to do one in real life.
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Not really, and that's why they're not on even the IR-A PTS. If you fly into a cloud, you're expected to make standard rate turns -- just the same as instrument pilots are expected to do.

The FAA considers anything over 30 bank or 15 pitch on instruments to be an "unusual attitude" from which you are expected to recover promptly and efficiently. They do not expect anyone to intentionally be doing steep turns (i.e., 45 degrees bank or more) as part of any instrument flight.

There's no reason to be scared of it.
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Not that most certainly is true, and they're also a good exercise for getting the feel of how much g-load you want to pull during a nose-low unusual attitude recovery, which is why we at PIC still teach them as part of IR training even though they're not part of the IR practical test.
 
Stewartb said:
I'll never forget my float check ride. The DPE nudged me and told me to relax, I'd passed. And then he gave me the best hour+ lesson I'd ever had in my life. Some of you guys sound like you defend performing to minimum standards. You ought to aim higher.

One of my early instructors asked me to do 360* turns. He asked what the PPS altitude deviation was. I told him. He asked what my standard was. I figured he was fishing for an answer so I said 25'. He looked at me and asked what was wrong with zero deviation. Maintain altitude. Pretty simple once the standard is set. I'll never forget that.
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Nothing wrong with that, but the reason for the PTS is so that both the applicant and DPE know what is required to pass (or fail) a checkride. If the DPE can require maneuvers not listed or standards above those of the PTS, "Whim of the examiner" becomes the standard, which eliminates "standard" from any of it.
 
BillTIZ said:
I did mine over 40yrs ago, and yes there was some minimal hood work. Basically the ability to hold a heading/altitude and complete the 180 turn.
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It's a bit more than that these days:

Task A: Straight​
‐and‐Level Flight (ASEL and ASES) ............60​

Task B: Constant Airspeed Climbs (ASEL and ASES) ..........60​
Task C: Constant Airspeed Descents (ASEL and​
ASES) .....................................................................60​
Task D: Turns to Headings (ASEL and ASES) ......................61​
Task E: Recovery from Unusual Flight Attitudes​
(ASEL and ASES) ....................................................61​
Task F: Radio Communications, Navigation​
Systems/Facilities, and Radar Services​
(ASEL and ASES) ....................................................62
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...but steep turns aren't on the list and the unusual attitude recoveries are full panel (as opposed to "primary flight instrument(s) inoperative" on the IR ride).
 
To the OP, Maybe the DPE considers himself an instructor. As he should. Asking a pilot to do a maneuver may not be part of the test but he may think it's a worthwhile skill. My check rides have been an absolute blast. Go pass the test then ask the DPE to help you with whatever he thinks needs help. A check ride is not something to fear, it's something to enjoy. Your instructor signed you off because you're ready to fly. Go prove it.
 
N801BH said:
I am 100% sure the DPE had the plane in a very steep bank and nose up 25 dgrees when he handed in back to me while I was under the hood during the unusual attitude recovery test........:yes:
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Right -- but you were expected to get it back to S&L promptly, not hold the bank there at 45 degrees for a 360-degree turn.
 
Stewartb said:
To the OP, Maybe the DPE considers himself an instructor. As he should.
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On the contrary, the FAA specifically forbids DPE's from giving training during a practical test. Yes, they may sneak in a few teaching points through the back door for safety's sake, and the FAA won't quibble about that, but teaching you to do a maneuver which is neither part of the relevant regulatory "flight proficiency" list nor included in the PTS for that certificate/rating is off the reservation.
 
Ron Levy said:
Good point, but that's an ATP maneuver showing total mastery of the aircraft, not an instrument maneuver, or it would also be in the IR-A PTS.
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No argument there...and after 3 days of making them work hard in the sim, my check rides are non-events, straight out of the PTS. Everybody knows what the maneuvers and standards are.:yes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
No argument there...and after 3 days of making them work hard in the sim, my check rides are non-events, straight out of the PTS. Everybody knows what the maneuvers and standards are.:yes:
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Everyone should know, but it appears the OP's DPE may not. :(
 
No. They're not even required for the instrument checkride anymore.
 
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