Checkride question as well.

[wabower]

Or find out that the current examiner's method of executing those maneuvers is totally different from the guy who preceded him.

And even then, most CFI's forget those maneuvers after their checkrides unless they happen to teach alot of Commercial applicants.

 

[Raftthis101]

Thank you for this great comment. I do not wish to hijake the thread, but I do wish to respond to this comment.
Nearly all instructors (I am private pilot helo, and had nine instructors in getting there...) fail to do this important step of explaining or showing the student why a various procedure must be followed. The more the student understands the "why" of a various procedure or thought process, the more likely they are to remember it. And if they also understand the "why" in the sense that "someone else failed to do these steps, and the result was that they crashed or had some serious problem" then it motivates the student pilot even more to learn as deeply as they possibly can about the given subject. This is one of the areas that is almost universally deeply lacking in aviation instruction. I learned the why for many of the things I was taught AFTER I had already passed my checkride. It would have been great to know ahead of time the thinking and thought process behind the various PTS areas, as well as other areas.
Thanks for letting us know how important this is. I hope to be a CFI one day, and I found this very inspiring, and a very good instructional technique.

 

[pilotod]

I think training in a more real environment would be better than the CFI saying, "let's do a soft field landing." I've only landed once on a soft field and I don't have that same feeling when I do it on concrete. Maybe it's not critical that I get the feeling of being on grass or dirt or the rocks that I actually landed on but I agree that creating the scenario would be better than just asking for the maneuver. I would appreciate my instructor just saying pretend we're going to a fly-in at a small airport that has a grass strip....

Another thing one of the CFI's does to me is asks me point blank questions and sometimes I don't know exactly what he's referring to. I ask for a little clarifications sometimes but when I'm doing a steep turn I don't have time to "discuss." Let's just say I'm watching trying to keep the plane headed at altitude and watching the CDI some and the instructor asks me what kind of cloud that is. I've looked at them with no particular interest since I'm not flying there and I see a bunch of different types as I look in the general location of his head position. Well, the low clouds I identify as nimbus. He says, yes, but the other ones. I say I see cirrus up higher. He says yes, but the other one. Geez, then he says what are those lens shaped clouds. G-damn, ok, why didn't you ask something in a better way. How about, you see those lenticular clouds (I passed the written with a 95 so I've been through the ground school course), he could have just asked if we were to fly below them or near them what kind of wind effects might we expect?

Anyway, I agree. There should be more situational instruction....apparently like the kind the DE is going to give me.

Thank you for this great comment. I do not wish to hijake the thread, but I do wish to respond to this comment.
Nearly all instructors (I am private pilot helo, and had nine instructors in getting there...) fail to do this important step of explaining or showing the student why a various procedure must be followed. The more the student understands the "why" of a various procedure or thought process, the more likely they are to remember it. And if they also understand the "why" in the sense that "someone else failed to do these steps, and the result was that they crashed or had some serious problem" then it motivates the student pilot even more to learn as deeply as they possibly can about the given subject. This is one of the areas that is almost universally deeply lacking in aviation instruction. I learned the why for many of the things I was taught AFTER I had already passed my checkride. It would have been great to know ahead of time the thinking and thought process behind the various PTS areas, as well as other areas.
Thanks for letting us know how important this is. I hope to be a CFI one day, and I found this very inspiring, and a very good instructional technique.

 

[wabower]

Have you stopped to think he might be preparing you for the distraction questions the DPE will ask during the check-ride? Should the correct answer be "unable, busy now" ?

I think training in a more real environment would be better than the CFI saying, "let's do a soft field landing." I've only landed once on a soft field and I don't have that same feeling when I do it on concrete. Maybe it's not critical that I get the feeling of being on grass or dirt or the rocks that I actually landed on but I agree that creating the scenario would be better than just asking for the maneuver. I would appreciate my instructor just saying pretend we're going to a fly-in at a small airport that has a grass strip....

Another thing one of the CFI's does to me is asks me point blank questions and sometimes I don't know exactly what he's referring to. I ask for a little clarifications sometimes but when I'm doing a steep turn I don't have time to "discuss." Let's just say I'm watching trying to keep the plane headed at altitude and watching the CDI some and the instructor asks me what kind of cloud that is. I've looked at them with no particular interest since I'm not flying there and I see a bunch of different types as I look in the general location of his head position. Well, the low clouds I identify as nimbus. He says, yes, but the other ones. I say I see cirrus up higher. He says yes, but the other one. Geez, then he says what are those lens shaped clouds. G-damn, ok, why didn't you ask something in a better way. How about, you see those lenticular clouds (I passed the written with a 95 so I've been through the ground school course), he could have just asked if we were to fly below them or near them what kind of wind effects might we expect?

Anyway, I agree. There should be more situational instruction....apparently like the kind the DE is going to give me.

 

[pilotod]

He might be annoying me that's true. If I have a passenger in the plane and he's trying to simulate that.....it sure would be nice if it were in a "situational" type of presentation. I have no idea if this new CFI I'm flying with is actually wanting me to express my knowledge of clouds or he's just distracting me.

The distraction thing....I don't know how they can test that other than try to make the pilot crash the plane or make me fly where I shouldn't. Flying level and attempting a distraction seems a little wasteful of that intent.

 

[poadeleted20]

The distraction thing....I don't know how they can test that

Exactly how your instructor did -- start talking/asking about something irrelevant. I will never forget how on my pre-solo check as I turned final my instructor started talking about the canteloupes he saw on sale at a farmer's stand along the highway that morning and asking if I liked canteloupes. At the time, I thought he'd had a brain disconnect. Later, I learned what he was doing and why.

Oh, and what did I do? One glance at him to see if he looked like he'd lost his marbles (he hadn't) and then I ignored him and let him continue yakking while I landed the plane, after which he said, "Full stop, taxi to the base of the tower, let me out, and then go do two T&G's and a full stop." No more canteloupes ever again.

 

[pilotod]

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted? I don't get it. I haven't found a distraction that makes me quit flying. Was there some pilot that crashed because they wanted to see the geese flying off the lake and then crashed their plane? Alright, it's a game that maybe the CFI is told needs to be something they do in the plane, but seriously...I'd like to know what the evidence there is regarding talking about esoteric bs and causing the pilot to be very unsafe. I don't want anyone to tell me to read the NTSB accidents...there's nothing in there about rubbing your head and patting your tummy is there?

Exactly how your instructor did -- start talking/asking about something irrelevant. I will never forget how on my pre-solo check as I turned final my instructor started talking about the canteloupes he saw on sale at a farmer's stand along the highway that morning and asking if I liked canteloupes. At the time, I thought he'd had a brain disconnect. Later, I learned what he was doing and why.

Oh, and what did I do? One glance at him to see if he looked like he'd lost his marbles (he hadn't) and then I ignored him and let him continue yakking while I landed the plane, after which he said, "Full stop, taxi to the base of the tower, let me out, and then go do two T&G's and a full stop." No more canteloupes ever again.

 

[N801BH]

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted? I don't get it. I haven't found a distraction that makes me quit flying. Was there some pilot that crashed because they wanted to see the geese flying off the lake and then crashed their plane? Alright, it's a game that maybe the CFI is told needs to be something they do in the plane, but seriously...I'd like to know what the evidence there is regarding talking about esoteric bs and causing the pilot to be very unsafe. I don't want anyone to tell me to read the NTSB accidents...there's nothing in there about rubbing your head and patting your tummy is there?

Well, there is this one.... But it was not her head or his tummy...

NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18632&key=1

NTSB Identification: MIA92FA051 . The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 46312.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, December 23, 1991 in RAINBOW LAKE, FL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/5/93
Aircraft: PIPER PA-34-200T, registration: N47506
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
THE PRIVATE PILOT AND A PILOT RATED PASSENGER WERE GOING TO PRACTICE SIMULATED INSTRUMENT FLIGHT. WITNESSES OBSERVED THE AIRPLANE'S RIGHT WING FAIL IN A DIVE AND CRASH. EXAMINATION OF THE WRECKAGE AND BODIES REVEALED THAT BOTH OCCUPANTS WERE PARTIALLY CLOTHED AND THE FRONT RIGHT SEAT WAS IN THE FULL AFT RECLINING POSITION. NEITHER BODY SHOWED EVIDENCE OF SEATBELTS OR SHOULDER HARNESSES BEING WORN. EXAMINATION OF THE INDIVIDUALS' CLOTHING REVEALED NO EVIDENCE OF RIPPING OR DISTRESS TO THE ZIPPERS AND BELTS.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

THE PILOT IN COMMAND'S IMPROPER INFLIGHT DECISION TO DIVERT HER ATTENTION TO OTHER ACTIVITIES NOT RELATED TO THE CONDUCT OF THE FLIGHT. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WAS THE EXCEEDING OF THE DESIGN LIMITS OF THE AIRPLANE LEADING TO A WING FAILURE.

 

[wabower]

Whether you need to read the NTSB reports is unclear, but you might want to start with the dictionary definition of distractions. Whether or not the instructor's conversation or action is pertinent to whatever you think is important is immaterial and not your call.

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted? I don't get it. I haven't found a distraction that makes me quit flying. Was there some pilot that crashed because they wanted to see the geese flying off the lake and then crashed their plane? Alright, it's a game that maybe the CFI is told needs to be something they do in the plane, but seriously...I'd like to know what the evidence there is regarding talking about esoteric bs and causing the pilot to be very unsafe. I don't want anyone to tell me to read the NTSB accidents...there's nothing in there about rubbing your head and patting your tummy is there?

 

[Apache123]

Just going to throw in my check-ride story since it seems relevant.

Everything we did was pretty much what can happen in a real-life scenario. What stuck with me the most was the hood-time and slow-flight.

He distracted me during a climbing-turn to look the opposite direction we were going for only a moment. At that point in time he said "unfortunately these things happen and we just entered a cloud. I have the flight controls <you have the flight controls> I have the flight controls. put on your hood"

He put me in an unusual attitude and I took the flight controls w/ hood on.

After correcting the unusual attitude it was "Get us out of this cloud"
<180 degree turn by instruments>

"We're still enveloped by this cloud and need to get out, in our casual flight of the area, you left your sectional in the pocket, take it out so we can try and get out of this cloud by tracking a VOR"
Pulled out my sectional while under the hood, he said best bet to track VOR XYZ so I tuned it, centered the needle, and kind of froze for a moment. He said "What is the instrument telling you?" and I remembered to turn and fly the heading.

At this point he said "You successfully cleared the cloud" <took off the hood>
"But it looks like we picked up a lot of ice on the wings, set us up for slowflight"
While in slowflight he said "what if you added power to maintain level flight, but the engine RPMs were staying low?" <explained carb-ice>

"Let's say the situation worsened, the engine wasn't putting out enough power to maintain altitude, and you tried to maintain level flight. What's going to happen?" me: "If I tried to keep level flight I'd eventually stall the plane." him: "Take that power out and stall the plane."
<did a power-off stall>

It stuck with me pretty well. It wasn't much like the standard "practice maneuver A then B then C," but all tied to real-world scenarios.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted?

Nothing in the way of accident reports, but as an instructor, I can tell you for sure that performance often deteriorates when I do it to my trainees, and the problem goes away when they learn to tell me to stop. And I can also tell you from experience that passengers often don't know when to shut up and let you work, and have to be told to wait until later to talk with you -- or even for you to use the PILOT ISO switch.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Technically, it does.

Or at least until you lose your medical or crash and die.

The Private check-ride is a series of tasks to determine the applicant's basic aircraft control capabilities to the minimum level required to carry passengers. It's never going to be all-encompassing.

See Kimberly's recent weather thread for examples of what it does not teach you.

Thanks. I am the poster child for what a new pilot doesn't know I suppose.

 

[gismo]

Thanks. I am the poster child for what a new pilot doesn't know I suppose.

Naw. The poster child for that doesn't even know that they don't know. Someone like you who asks questions is way ahead of that.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted?

It isn't about cantelopes. It is about distractions in general.

There have been countless accidents in aviation history where pilot(s) got distracted or pre-occupied with something non-critical and crashed. It is unfortunately a common theme.

The classic door opening in flight for example has killed many.

Plenty of non-critical alarms going off in the takeoff roll have killed many as well.

Plenty of non-pertinent conversations in the cockpit have resulted in fatal accidents.

The list goes on.

 

[gismo]

It isn't about cantelopes. It is about distractions in general.

There have been countless accidents in aviation history where pilot(s) got distracted or pre-occupied with something non-critical and crashed. It is unfortunately a common theme.

The classic door opening in flight for example has killed many.

Plenty of non-critical alarms going off in the takeoff roll have killed many as well.

Plenty of non-pertinent conversations in the cockpit have resulted in fatal accidents.

The list goes on.

And it's not just us GA types or single pilot Ops. The DC8 that ran out of fuel over Portland and another airliner over the Florida Everglades, both involving a simple landing gear indicator issue, come to mind. Even the more recent Colgan Air crash at Buffalo involved an "unsterile" cockpit.

 

[GCA319]

Or find out that the current examiner's method of executing those maneuvers is totally different from the guy who preceded him.

There is a definate lack of consistency in the way Comm maneuvers are taught and tested. I tend to be a little radical and teach them the exact way the AFH lays them out. I know, crazy.

 

[danhagan]

Is there some evidence that asking a student pilot about canteloupes going to make the pilot distracted? I don't get it. I haven't found a distraction that makes me quit flying.

But there are those that disrupt your "flows and checks" ... the 152's we trained in always had a door pop open on takeoff, so that wasn't even an issue on the checkride.

The examiner waited until rotation to ask how I was going to activate the flight plan, which frequency (our area down low requires using discrete) then FF and its frequency ... not too distracting except he asked for a short field takeoff as the first and knew the flaps were still out ... I caught it, but he almost got me. Since the DPE had already been doing a 1.5 hour oral ... followed by light gun signals during taxi ... the questions didn't seem like an intended distraction.

 

[N801BH]

But there are those that disrupt your "flows and checks" ... the 152's we trained in always had a door pop open on takeoff, so that wasn't even an issue on the checkride.

The examiner waited until rotation to ask how I was going to activate the flight plan, which frequency (our area down low requires using discrete) then FF and its frequency ... not too distracting except he asked for a short field takeoff as the first and knew the flaps were still out ... I caught it, but he almost got me. Since the DPE had already been doing a 1.5 hour oral ... followed by light gun signals during taxi ... the questions didn't seem like an intended distraction.

WOW..

You got your money's worth on the check ride.