Checkride question as well.

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
How come the Checkride isn't more life like? Practicing the stuff last night and I can do all the maneuvers and am fairly confident. My CFI was as well. Was good up until we went to land and I forgot to turn on the fuel pump (Piper Warrior) :yikes:

It just doesn't seem natural. I've been through a checkride before (Not the best move ever since I BEGGED the CFI to sign me off so I could experience it)

Wouldn't it make more sense to have it be more realistic. I can't imagine a time after I get my license that a friend and I are going flying AND we talk about flying for an hour beforehand and then we go and they say "Hey can you slow this thing down (Slow flight). I can imagine the turns around a point and stuff (to see their house) but do all of the stuff on one day just seems obscure!

Is there something I'm missing? I mean what are the odds of stalling, having an inflight emergency, getting lost and flying through a cloud.

*Can't wait to see how many pages this goes on*
 
When I took my drivers test is the closest thing to this...and to this day(some 22 years after getting that one) I couldn't tell you how far away from a fire hydrant/railroad tracks I can park. Don't see people coming to a full stop at stop signs much anymore.
 
UdTfs.gif
 
The NTSB database is populated by people that stalled, had inflight emergencies, and VFR into IMC.
 
The same person didn't have all those things happen in one flight and if they did that'd be obscure!
 
A really great examiner does just what you say -- turns the ride into a scenario in which all the required tasks are covered. However, it's very hard to do that smoothly, and some of the tasks (like stalls and recoveries) are hard to put into a scenario, so much of the ride tends to be "OK, do this, now do that, now do this other thing." As for doing it over several flights or days, the FAA does not permit this unless the ride is interrupted by weather or mechanical issues or the like. Since you can cover all those tasks in about 90 minutes, that's normally what is done.

As for the various tasks you question, like stalls, inadvertent flight into instrument conditions, and various systems emergencies, the accident files are chock-full cases where they did occur and the pilot handled them badly, which is why the FAA stresses them during practical tests.
 
Wow!

You are correct in saying that you will probably NEVER have a passenger ask you to do slow flight. That is not the issue. The issue is to ensure that you UNDERSTAND what slow flight is all about. That you understand what it feels like. That you understand what happens if you go TOO slow. That you know what to do when you actually GO too slow.

The purpose of the PPL checkride is to ensure that you are safe to carry passengers. My DPE told me that if I could convince him that I could safely carry his son as a passenger, I would pass. He had an entire list of things to check(PTS) in order to evaluate my ability to do so.

Off hand, I can't think of anything on the PTS that is meaningless. Will I ever do 360 degree steep turns when flying with my wife to see her sister? Probably not. In the real world there's not much point in that. To see if I can fly with enough precision to be a safe pilot OTOH, they serve a purpose.

I would urge that you learn all the maneuvers, how they apply to practical flying and learn to do everything on the PTS well. This is not merely for the purpose of getting a Private Pilot Certificate, but more importantly so that you can be a safe pilot for yourself and your passengers.

Good luck and go get 'em!
 
I am sure every PTS task has a story behind it. For example, turn around the point. You, a newly minted pilot, want to show your family your house from above. Just flying over won't cut it. So, there you go. I am not quite sure what's the purpose of S Turn, but I believe it's there for a reason as well. Maybe to show that you understand wind and how to compensate for it during maneuvers?

And slow flight was fun last time I practiced it. I think it's a way to show your DPE that you have good control over the airplane in a non-standard situation.
 
Maybe that's what I'm or any student is looking to get. A purpose for each of the maneuvers. Which I think is the point of this web board. (To educate each other on what we know)
 
What you're asking is not far off... All of the DPE's in the service area of our local FSDO had a meeting last week and many changes are on the horizon. One of them is scenario based checkrides. They are the second FSDO in the country to have the meeting with these changes but it will be addressed throughout the entire country with enough time. The FAA now wants as much of the checkride to be as scenario based as possible. Ie. base to final turn for a power off stall, pointing to something on the ground and asking the applicant to descend and circle around it (turn around a point), actually going to the destination airport on a planned cross-country flight, etc.

That was the first of many changes to come...
 
THere IS a purpose for each of the maneuvers, your CFI should have told you and you should be asking. Like Meanee said, turns around a point have more behind them than just "You might want to circle Aunt Sally's place sometime." They teach you how to control the arplane, compensate for wind drift, adjust power for the bank angles, maintain constant airspeed and altitude for different bank angles.

Slow flight is more than "Let's see how slowly this thing can fly." Same with the other maneuvers. They are all about how to control the airplane under other than straight and level flight, why you have to control the plane the way you do, and learning what can go wrong if you don't do it properly.

Don't just go through the motions, ask your CFI WHY you are doing what you are doing and have your CFI show you what can go wrong if you don't do it properly (like how a slow flight turn can result in a spin in a direction you didn't expect). This board is a good start, though.
 
I have yet to see anything in the PTS that I can't figure out the reason for. Slow flight, stalls, etc -- it's a Good Thing(tm) to be able to keep the aircraft under positive control no matter how fast or slow you're going, and you've GOT to be able to recognize the signs of an impending stall and deal with it effectively. Ground reference maneuvers -- turns around a point, S turns, etc -- are to make sure you know how to figure out and deal with wind so you can do approaches and landings under less than perfect conditions.

It doesn't take a lot of time to learn how to fly the plane when everything is going well. It takes a lot more to learn how to fly it when things start going very wrong. It's like I have told my kids countless times when teaching them to drive... it's easy to learn how to operate a car, it's a lot tougher to learn to be an excellent driver.
 
saracelica said:
Was good up until we went to land and I forgot to turn on the fuel pump (Piper Warrior) :yikes:
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Good thing the mechanical pump didn't fail on short final. :wink2:


saracelica said:
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it be more realistic. I can't imagine a time after I get my license that a friend and I are going flying AND we talk about flying for an hour beforehand and then we go and they say "Hey can you slow this thing down (Slow flight).
Click to expand...

You wouldn't consider final approach to land slow flight?


saracelica said:
Is there something I'm missing? I mean what are the odds of stalling, having an inflight emergency, getting lost and flying through a cloud.
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Check out the NTSB database. Just had a guy at the end of last year that flew he, his two daughters and one of the daughters boy friend through some clouds. They're all DEAD now. A week or so ago we had the Cirrus who was told by the tower to cut it in close, DEAD now! :sad:

You're paying someone to judge your ability to fly safely, how long do you want that to last? The idea is to try and keep you from becoming and entry in that database.
 
EppyGA said:
You wouldn't consider final approach to land slow flight?
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I wouldn't. Well, not 100% at least. I am currently doing my pre-checkride practice and going through all PTS maneuvers. Last flight, I did a slow flight. I had the stall horn blare the entire time. Never had that on approach to land. (other than this ONE time :yikes: )
 
I mean what are the odds of stalling, having an inflight emergency, getting lost and flying through a cloud.
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pretty damn high if you don't have the skills and knowledge to pass a checkride... and still a definite possibility after that


No one is kidding about the license to learn thing.

I just got my instrument rating on monday. I can legally (with pax) shoot an approach in hard IMC on a dark and stormy night down to 200' agl. Think i'll be doing that any time soon... no
 
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saracelica said:
When I took my drivers test is the closest thing to this...and to this day(some 22 years after getting that one) I couldn't tell you how far away from a fire hydrant/railroad tracks I can park. Don't see people coming to a full stop at stop signs much anymore.
Click to expand...

Maybe this logic is really an argument for better driver's training! After all, some 40,000 people die on U.S. roads each year, yet I think on average that about 500 to 600 people die every year in general aviation accidents.
 
saracelica said:
Maybe that's what I'm or any student is looking to get. A purpose for each of the maneuvers. Which I think is the point of this web board. (To educate each other on what we know)
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I'm a lot like you, I think. I don't do well with rules and procedures that I have no clue as to the 'why'. If I understand WHY a rule exists or WHY a procedure is the way it is then I'm much more likely to remember it.

On the other hand, a brand new student pilot doesn't have enough understanding to understand all the why's and just have to take some things onboard as fact until their understand comes up to a level that will enable them to understand all the why's.

I'd encourage you to ask your CFI they why's. You may be setting yourself up for some research assignments from your CFI but that's a good thing. In the end you'll have a better understanding and one that suits our learning style of wanting to know the reasons behind what we're learning.

To CFIs I'd suggest not just telling a student pilot a rule (say max speed below 10K is 250kts) but also explain about bird strikes and closure rates with non-transponder'd aircraft and such...
 
saracelica said:
. Was good up until we went to land and I forgot to turn on the fuel pump (Piper Warrior) :yikes:

*
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Basic piloting skills 101....

ALWAYS use the checklist.....:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:

Cherokee POH says.....................................

" Boost pump on for takeoff"

"Boost pump on for landing"

Other then that a checkride is a test on your total flying skills, be it book work or air work or radio work. The total is the sum of your performace..:yesnod:
 
saracelica said:
Is there something I'm missing? I mean what are the odds of stalling, having an inflight emergency, getting lost and flying through a cloud.
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I'd say yes. There's "something" you're missing. It seems to me there are at least two major points. The first is: do you want to be prepared for urgent/emergency situations that happen all too frequently (even to experienced pilots)? The second is: how can you demonstrate that you're prepared for various situations and have mastery of the aircraft sufficient to have a chance of surviving?

In order to exercise the privileges of the PP cert, you have to demonstrate competence to a designated examiner. Maybe you won't encounter every possible emergency in one flight, maybe you will encounter one or more. It matters not, ya better be prepared.
 
It's called an exam for a reason. Of course you're not going to discuss flying with your friend for 1 hour before taking him/her up, but flying isn't all fun and games...There are things that can happen that will require you to act as a professional. Just because you don't fly for a living doesn't mean that you don't have a professional obligation to be a safe pilot.
 
saracelica said:
When I took my drivers test is the closest thing to this...and to this day(some 22 years after getting that one) I couldn't tell you how far away from a fire hydrant/railroad tracks I can park. Don't see people coming to a full stop at stop signs much anymore.
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And if most of us treated flying the same way we treat driving, we'd all end up in smoking holes in the ground.
 
If you go in the instructor's handbook, you'll see that the first thing you're supposed to cover in a lesson is why we're learning whatever it is we're learning. When I did my training for PIC, they had four of us in together. The boss said, "Teach a ground training lesson on holding." The others just started out talking about standard holds, holding courses, terminology, etc. I started out with a brief discussion of why we do holds in our course -- the occasional need to hang yourself on a skyhook for traffic or weather, the use of holding patterns in lieu of procedure turns for approach course reversals, and finally, that it's a required task in the test they're about to take.

Another example is approach clearances. I always start out with a recap of TWA 514 coming to grief on that ridge near Dulles when talking about why you must hear "maintain X thousand until established" for most approaches, and what can happen if you don't do it right.

The boss noted the fact that I was the only one of the four who started with the motivation for the task, and suggested the others incorporate this into their modus operandi. I was surprised that the others hadn't done it, but I guess it's a point many instructors forget in their rush to get the Hobbs meter rolling.:dunno:
 
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Just picking up on one point in your post....if you are entering the pattern and are overtaking the plane on downwind ahead of you, transitioning from normal downwind speed to slow flight for a few seconds and then coming back up to downwind speed is a useful skill (watch out for the plane behind you!!!).

It might be worth your while to lay hands on a copy of Advisory Circular 60-22 (available at www.faa.gov) and read up on the section titled "Anti-authority."

Bob Gardner
 
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bobmrg said:
Just picking up on one point in your post....if you are entering the pattern and are overtaking the plane on downwind ahead of you, transitioning from normal downwind speed to slow flight for a few seconds and then coming back up to downwind speed is a useful skill (watch out for the plane behind you!!!).

It might be worth your while to lay hands on a copy of Advisory Circular 60-22 (available at www.faa.gov) and read up on the section titled "Anti-authority."

Bob Gardner
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Good suggestion Bob.
 
If you can't execute the manuvers and recite the answers in a contrived setting when you know it's coming and have preparation time, what's the odds you're going to be able to do it when events catch you by surprise or you're focused on getting someplace in time for an event?

I believe a lot of it is the preparation process. It has to be stressful and have enough of a build up that you thoroughly review the material on some schedule.
 
On my checkride, I completely neglected the entire GUMPS check on my first landing... and I'm pretty sure so did he. We landed, taxied back around for takeoff, and I very slyly went through my pre-takeoff checklist, flipped on the fuel pump, and neither of us said anything about it. But I'm confident we both knew what had just happened.
 
You're not flying a lunar mission for NASA here, you're taking a private pilot checkride...just be proficient and thorough with what's outlined in the syllabus and you'll be fine.
 
Everskyward said:
Your checkride would take forever?
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Technically, it does. :)

Or at least until you lose your medical or crash and die. ;)

The Private check-ride is a series of tasks to determine the applicant's basic aircraft control capabilities to the minimum level required to carry passengers. It's never going to be all-encompassing.

See Kimberly's recent weather thread for examples of what it does not teach you. :)
 
xmuerte said:
I very slyly went through my pre-takeoff checklist, flipped on the fuel pump
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Question... why would you flip on the fuel pump again if you just taxied back around for another take off?
 
Tracey said:
Question... why would you flip on the fuel pump again if you just taxied back around for another take off?
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Because "pump on" is required for takeoff in a PA28. Otherwise, if the engine-driven pump hiccups just after takeoff, you could find yourself without engine power at a very low altitude with few options.
 
saracelica said:
Maybe that's what I'm or any student is looking to get. A purpose for each of the maneuvers. Which I think is the point of this web board. (To educate each other on what we know)
Click to expand...

Most of the procedures are the first level of precision flying, how well can you control the airplane and how safe are you controlling the airplane.

S-turns - how to slow up when the airplane in front of you is slower on final, as well as a critical skill for tail draggers on the ground.
Rectangular pattern - that's the landing procedure
Slow flight - base to landing
Stalls - take-off and landings

If your CFI hasn't explained the purpose of each of the procedures, then I think the justification is in the PTS
 
Tracey said:
Question... why would you flip on the fuel pump again if you just taxied back around for another take off?
Click to expand...

What was not mentioned directly in the post but understood is that the electrical fuel pump should be flipped on for landing as well. When he said he neglected the grumps check he implied he forgot it there.. And flipped it back on for takeoff after realizing his mistake.

A low wing airplane depends on a fuel pump to get fuel to the engine. A high wing airplane uses gravity - gravity does not break. A pa-28 has both an electrical pump and a mechanical fuel pump driven by the engine itself, it runs anytime the engine is running. Either one on its own is sufficient to provide fuel to the engine.

During takeoff and landing, it makes sense to have both the mechanical pump and electrical pump running at the same time. If the mechanical pump happens to fail at a critical moment, you won't even notice... The electrical pump will do all the work and your plane will run normally. If the electrical pump was switched off and the mechanical pump fails near the ground at some critical phase of takeoff or landing, you might not figure the problem out.


Standard procedure is to run the electrical pump before engine start (it needs fuel to start, and the mechanical pump does not work unless the motor is already running) check the gauge for pressure, start and then switch it off for taxi. If it runs ok with no electrical pump at taxi, you know the mechanical element is working. Then for takeoff you flip the aux pump back on - youhave the security of two known working pumps running at the same time
 
Very good explanation up to here:
dell30rb said:
Standard procedure is to run the electrical pump before engine start (it needs fuel to start, and the mechanical pump does not work unless the motor is already running) check the gauge for pressure, start and then switch it off for taxi.
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Different aircraft have different procedures on this. The AA-series Grummans call for a pump check before start, and then leaving the pump off for prime, start, and taxi. The AG-5B Tigers call for pump on for priming and start (the primer is electric and pushed by the pump rather than the pneumatic types), and then off for taxi. Other types (like the Cirrus SR22T) call for pump on all the time. So, check the book for what you're flying and do what it says.
 
Yep, and some have pumps with more than one setting and require even more attention. Selecting the "High" setting will cause some engines to run rough or even quit. Read the manual, understand (LEARN) the system, use the checklist. How much simpler can it be?

Ron Levy said:
Very good explanation up to here:Different aircraft have different procedures on this. The AA-series Grummans call for a pump check before start, and then leaving the pump off for prime, start, and taxi. The AG-5B Tigers call for pump on for priming and start (the primer is electric and pushed by the pump rather than the pneumatic types), and then off for taxi. Other types (like the Cirrus SR22T) call for pump on all the time. So, check the book for what you're flying and do what it says.
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I thought the whole thing was well thought out and explained. The only issue I found was with "gravity does not break".

While gravity itself doesn't break, it's effects stop working in an airplane all the time...inverted, push forward, turbulence. Small point.
 
saracelica said:
How come the Checkride isn't more life like?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it be more realistic. I can't imagine a time after I get my license that a friend and I are going flying AND we talk about flying for an hour beforehand and then we go and they say "Hey can you slow this thing down (Slow flight). I can imagine the turns around a point and stuff (to see their house) but do all of the stuff on one day just seems obscure!

Is there something I'm missing? I mean what are the odds of stalling, having an inflight emergency, getting lost and flying through a cloud.
Click to expand...
If the checkride were more "life like" it would require about 3 weeks and 50 hours of flying. That's how long it would be before you would have encountered the need to demonstrate most of the skills you're likely to need in "real life". What you might be missing is that the DE's primary goal isn't to determine whether or not you can make a perfect soft field landing, recover a stall with minimal altitude loss, or make a "steep" turn while holding altitude within 100 ft. While most of these tasks do relate to what experience has taught us to be important skills, the real value is that they provide a framework for the DE to generate his/her opinion on whether or not you will be a "safe" pilot. You might never need to make a 360° circle without losing a couple hundred feet again in your entire flying career but by performing that and other tasks successfully you are demonstrating that you have the ability to make the plane do what you want in most of the situations you are likely to encounter in "real life". The commercial maneuvers are the same thing. If you don't pursue aerobatics and/or ACM you'll probably never do another Chandelle or fly Pylon 8s unless you go for your own instructor's certificate but those maneuvers require an advanced level of control and understanding and that's what's being tested.
 
gismo said:
If the checkride were more "life like" it would require about 3 weeks and 50 hours of flying. That's how long it would be before you would have encountered the need to demonstrate most of the skills you're likely to need in "real life". What you might be missing is that the DE's primary goal isn't to determine whether or not you can make a perfect soft field landing, recover a stall with minimal altitude loss, or make a "steep" turn while holding altitude within 100 ft. While most of these tasks do relate to what experience has taught us to be important skills, the real value is that they provide a framework for the DE to generate his/her opinion on whether or not you will be a "safe" pilot. You might never need to make a 360° circle without losing a couple hundred feet again in your entire flying career but by performing that and other tasks successfully you are demonstrating that you have the ability to make the plane do what you want in most of the situations you are likely to encounter in "real life". The commercial maneuvers are the same thing. If you don't pursue aerobatics and/or ACM you'll probably never do another Chandelle or fly Pylon 8s unless you go for your own instructor's certificate but those maneuvers require an advanced level of control and understanding and that's what's being tested.
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And even then, most CFI's forget those maneuvers after their checkrides unless they happen to teach alot of Commercial applicants.
 
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